tomroark Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 As you can see in the title, I play a Guardian. It is my hopes to remain as objective as possible in this post. My only regret is that I am not yet level 50, even though I wished to abstain from posting until then. Unfortunately, time is not a luxury that has been afforded us. As many of you know, there is a patch that will be incoming to live servers soon that will effectively nerf, and in my opinion break, the Operative/Scoundrel class. So that we can be aware of what we are discussing here, here are the patch notes that have been posted: Acid Blade/Flechette Round: Now provides 30% armor penetration while active. Jarring Strike/K.O.: This ability now knocks the target down for 1.5 seconds. Hidden Strike/Shoot First: The damage output of this ability has been decreased by approximately 20% to control burst damage and because it was enabling significantly faster than intended kills in PvP. 1. My biggest concern about these nerfs for the Operative/Scoundrel class is that this update is far too soon. Level 50 brackets and the biochem nerf have not been in place long, and it seems that to get an accurate reading of where classes truly lie in the balanced/imbalanced scale, there would need to be a couple more weeks of monitoring Level 50 brackets specifically. In addition to more time needed to get an accurate reading, a larger pool of well equipped Level 50 players would be needed as well to have a more diverse sample. 2. These updates will break the Operative/Scoundrel in PvE. Reducing a burst damage classes' ability to do burst damage is not only totally reconstructing the type of class that it is, but is making it undesirable for high end group instances. We will have a playable class that cannot heal or DPS effectively, and will most likely be overlooked for classes that are specific healers and specific DPSers. 3. Starting nerfs now will only create a perception vacuum that will be filled by other classes who will, in turn, be nerfed as well. What I mean by perception vacuum is that certain classes throughout a game fluctuate in and out of the community's perception of what is currently "OP" and "Imbalanced." Sometimes, these statements are accurate. Unfortunately, those loudest on the forums tend to not have all the facts, or have blinders on and do not wish to see the full picture. Starting the nerf bat system will only bring other classes up to be nerfed in the future and will start a cycle that will end with a broken PvP system, as seen by other games. In all honesty, if any nerfs are being handed out so soon, then two other classes should be receiving nerfs as well. The Bounty Hunter/Trooper and Sage/Sorcerer. Both of these classes are nearly impossible to kill in 1v1 fights, and just because their damage is not burst, they are often overlooked when it comes to forum QQing. These classes, in my opinion, would need a fair amount of nerfing as well if any nerf is going to be applied to the Operative/Scoundrel class. 4. This nerf is overkill. I appreciate the devs attempt to take into consideration the feelings of the forum community, but in this case it is way too much. The first problem is that feelings are often unreliable and biased. The second is that they produce a perceived picture that is often over-bloated. There are two "nerfs" that I would implement to the Operative/Scoundrel classes if I was the dev team (and keep in mind that I said if any nerfs were to be implemented, Bounty Hunters/Troopers and Sages/Sorcerers would need nerfs as well to keep balance). The fixes I would implement would be these: Acid Blade/Flechette Round: Now provides 35% armor penetration while active and reduces the damage over time applied by 20%. Jarring Strike/K.O.: This ability now knocks the target down for 1.5 seconds, but resolve fill is cut by 50% as well. These are the changes I would make, and these changes would be made only if valid evidence was seen in a couple of weeks time since the recent patch via observing well equipped level 50's in the Level 50's bracket. Conclusion: If this preemptive and jump-of-the-gun patch is indeed implemented without the above suggestions and a nerf to Bounty Hunters/Troopers and Sages/Sorcerers as well, it will be a very messy and very bad situation that will most likely result in lost subscriptions and a discontent player base in addition to an entire class feeling shunned and not valued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psysention Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 you are not even level 50 so how do you know anything about current scoundrel burst? have you ever encountered full battlemaster geared scoundrel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unfactioned Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 you are not even level 50 so how do you know anything about current scoundrel burst? have you ever encountered full battlemaster geared scoundrel? Those who encounter full BM scoundrel/operatives aren't alive to tell us their tale. =( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heschen Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Good post.... hit's the nail right on the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VertisReaper Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) As a scoundrel in full champ...if an operative opens on me w/o trinket I am dead before I get up and vice versa. That is not good gameplay, I am for these changes. It will raise the skillcap of the class and make fights more drawn out and engaging than the current stop & pop gameplay that we currently have. Burst is OK, burst with no setup/combined with hard CC - is not. Edited January 22, 2012 by VertisReaper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Dominus Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I agree with the OP. I am not really sure what people think the class does after the burst. Most the time it is trying to get away from Trooper/Bounty Hunter AOE and ten thousand different stuns, which likely you can't do. I always count it as a trade off. I kill someone the rest kill me, both are increadibly fast at 50. If the OP/Smug is killing more than one player when he comes out of the initial burst it is because the opposition is not playing as a team and has no healing/shielding, which is such a horrible comparison at this stage of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGreasy Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Show me one video of an Operative killing a lvl 50 Tank in pvp gear 1v1 in under 30 seconds and I will be very impressed. The people calling for the nerfs were lvl 15s getting 3 shotted by OPs in pvp gear. I still do not believe these nerfs will go into place, if they do I guess I can go back to playing dota or try a new spec cause Concealment will be useless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eromen Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I agree with the post creator. I am operative and I agree ,that my crits can be 5000+,but they are only good for taking down 1-2 guys. I wonder why BW don't look at that fact that 50% of players are sages/sorc. I find that class pretty OP and have no idea why BW focused on nerfing ops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saella Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I agree with the creator of this post so much... (Sticky on this plz!!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prochuvi Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Burst is OK, burst with no setup/combined with hard CC - is not. this is the best sentence that i have read on these forums. shadow can put the same number that the operative but he need cast clairvoyance 2 times and after use the cooldown to do 60 % more cirital on projectand then he can put 7-10k on 3 sec window as the operative,the problem is that the operative it is faceroll:knowdown,6k-3k-vanish-6k-3k so it si pretty easy, nerf the burst dps and give some sustained or give them ram up time(hello retrys) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatchpointServe Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I agree 100% with OP. This nerf will be the end of Op/Scoundrel and the beginning of an era of overpowered BH/Troopers and Sage/Sorcerers. That, in addition to the huge failures in Ilum and complete lack of world PvP, will ruin the game completely. Perhaps my unsub from this game will be the end of my MMO play altogether, as nothing on the horizon looks very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitejackale Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) Those who encounter full BM scoundrel/operatives aren't alive to tell us their tale. =( I encountered full Battlemaster operatives when i was level 30 or so and lived to tell the tale. Break cc, cc them, kite, win. Pretty easy. Edited January 22, 2012 by whitejackale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomroark Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 you are not even level 50 so how do you know anything about current scoundrel burst? have you ever encountered full battlemaster geared scoundrel? I'm being transparent, and I don't need to be 50 to have an understanding of the situation. I've played plenty of Warzones, plenty before the 50's bracket was implemented. I've fought against many Operatives/Scoundrels in a wide array of gear. If they get the jump, yes, I most likely die. That's their class. Once the burst damage is done though, there's not much left. AOE's interrupt their vanish, and if I'm actually playing with my team, Operatives/Scoundrels don't last that long. Unfortunately, the only way to get accurate readings is to have a large pool of equal players with similar gear, i.e. everyone has Battlemaster gear. That's when we can make truly accurate judgments on where classes stand against others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torn Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) Show me one video of an Operative killing a lvl 50 Tank in pvp gear 1v1 in under 30 seconds and I will be very impressed. The people calling for the nerfs were lvl 15s getting 3 shotted by OPs in pvp gear. I still do not believe these nerfs will go into place, if they do I guess I can go back to playing dota or try a new spec cause Concealment will be useless Yep - There are still people, even some posting in this thread, that continue to perpetuate the lies about them - and because new 50s get killed by BM geared people they will continue to say "see see they are OP" I dont understand how anyone even non-ops can justify this nerf - everyone should want balance to be based on lvl 50 with gear - everyone should want bioware to base their changes on data from at least a months time - No one should change a class this drastically a month after release - there is no way this is NOT based on people complaining because it would have been changed in alpha or beta testing Who changes a class this much a month after release? O ya the MMO newbs And you know its fine laugh and say the nerfs are fine - if they nerf this class to the ground your class is soon to follow - especially if they are going to start this balancing around community perception and not data - if this nerf goes through it is a window into the future - this game failing hard Edited January 22, 2012 by Torn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lagmonster Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Yep - There are still people, even some posting in this thread, that continue to perpetuate the lies about them - and because new 50s get killed by BM geared people they will continue to say "see see they are OP" I dont understand how anyone even non-ops can justify this nerf - everyone should want balance to be based on lvl 50 with gear - everyone should want bioware to base their changes on data from at least a months time - No one should change a class this drastically a month after release - there is no way this is NOT based on people complaining because it would have been changed in alpha or beta testing Who changes a class this much a month after release? O ya the MMO newbs And you know its fine laugh and say the nerfs are fine - if they nerf this class to the ground your class is soon to follow - especially if they are going to start this balancing around community perception and not data - if this nerf goes through it is a window into the future - this game failing hard Add to that the huge mistake of blanket nerfing for pvp with no regard to how it effects pve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatchpointServe Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Yep - There are still people, even some posting in this thread, that continue to perpetuate the lies about them - and because new 50s get killed by BM geared people they will continue to say "see see they are OP" I dont understand how anyone even non-ops can justify this nerf - everyone should want balance to be based on lvl 50 with gear - everyone should want bioware to base their changes on data from at least a months time - No one should change a class this drastically a month after release - there is no way this is NOT based on people complaining because it would have been changed in alpha or beta testing Who changes a class this much a month after release? O ya the MMO newbs And you know its fine laugh and say the nerfs are fine - if they nerf this class to the ground your class is soon to follow - especially if they are going to start this balancing around community perception and not data - if this nerf goes through it is a window into the future - this game failing hard I'm incredibly disappointed with BW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VertisReaper Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) Helm of Garaugh server, I can 1v1 any class on my smuggler within 15 seconds. I dare someone to try to kill me with full cds. Come at me bros. Msg Niaoru. Edited January 22, 2012 by VertisReaper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquideyes Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) When this patch comes life u can delete this char as DD !!! A Sith Sorcerer which can play always has a shield up , break the knockdownopener from me instantly !!knockbacks me and directly dots me and then my *** is ripped cause the dot snares me and my vansish is useless and then kite kite kite and operative = dead !! Edited January 22, 2012 by liquideyes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fafryd Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Nerf hard and fast to avoid everyone rolling an alt of that class and magnifying the problem (even though so many have). If the nerf is overdone, return some of it. The logic is sound, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthChagras Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Yep - There are still people, even some posting in this thread, that continue to perpetuate the lies about them - and because new 50s get killed by BM geared people they will continue to say "see see they are OP" I dont understand how anyone even non-ops can justify this nerf - everyone should want balance to be based on lvl 50 with gear - everyone should want bioware to base their changes on data from at least a months time - No one should change a class this drastically a month after release - there is no way this is NOT based on people complaining because it would have been changed in alpha or beta testing Who changes a class this much a month after release? O ya the MMO newbs And you know its fine laugh and say the nerfs are fine - if they nerf this class to the ground your class is soon to follow - especially if they are going to start this balancing around community perception and not data - if this nerf goes through it is a window into the future - this game failing hard Don't get me wrong. But isn't that what WoW is, and it's highly successful. Community whines, Blizzard listens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickTo Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 /signed! Sith Sorc/ OP/ Trooper here! BW TEST IT MORE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lagmonster Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) Don't get me wrong. But isn't that what WoW is, and it's highly successful. Community whines, Blizzard listens. You know how many people I've seen over the years quit wow because of this method of doing things? To many to count As no matter how much information is presented to them it doesn't change anything. Its nerf to the ground baby, and then years before anything will be addressed if something is under performing. I won't be sticking around for years to finally be able to do true end game in Tor on my op as dps, when we are barely even a month into the game. Edited January 22, 2012 by Lagmonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomfedj Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 this is the best sentence that i have read on these forums. shadow can put the same number that the operative but he need cast clairvoyance 2 times and after use the cooldown to do 60 % more cirital on projectand then he can put 7-10k on 3 sec window as the operative,the problem is that the operative it is faceroll:knowdown,6k-3k-vanish-6k-3k so it si pretty easy, nerf the burst dps and give some sustained or give them ram up time(hello retrys) First wanna say i agree with the OP, very well thought out post instead of most of the stuff being posted saying "good job! qq more op/scounds!".... I think this hits on a good point, there are not many scoundrels/operatives here would defend the fact you could double up on the stealth hit by using the vanish command, i for one think that the stealth opener command needs a good 10+ second cooldown (instead of NO cooldown like it has at the moment) a lot of em main say "yeah but we can only do that every 2-3 minutes" true, but honestly i don't think it was EVER intended to use that stealth opener twice in just a handful of seconds, in fact almost no mmo (that has a stealth/rogue/hidden class) allows that because that stealth opener is suppose to do about 20%-50% damage, most mmo's are like that stealth classes are ALL front loaded damage, if you allow that front load to go off twice well kiss almost ANY class in the game goodbye. Now i know some will reply and say but but but! their cc breaker, they could knock back they could etc etc.. true... that is ALL true, if they CC break after the 1st attack, they can stand up, AND if they have a decent knock back they should get away.. but being a scoundrel myself (who has no knockback ability) i know if a operative wants to kill me, they are going too, simply due to the double opening stealth shot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escalith Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 It's hilarious. People are basing the fact that Ops/Scoundrels are OP on the fact that there's a video with a guy doing 10k crits. All they really see is the huge number, 10k - omg, that's almost a one-shot. Mayhaps so, but do people even know how that happened? To hit 10k, he had 10%+ Expertise from gear, 15% Expertise from an Adrenal, 15% Expertise from a Warzone Buff, Surge from a Trinket, 20% increased damage from a Marauder - Hitting people that have no expertise aka are low level. So, considering you can't stack Adrenal Expertise anymore, low levels aren't in the group anymore and the fact that you can't count an AoE buff that increases everyones damage into the rotation, because it's not that easy to set all that up - Also every other class also earns +20% to their damage. So, if you reverse engineer that - 10k Crit on a level 20something player -10% Expertise, normal for a 50 PvPer without BM Gear - 9k You can not stack 2 15% Expertise Buffs anymore. - 7,650k -20% from the Marauder buff that would increase anyones damage. - 6,120k -20% damage nerf on Hidden Strike - 4,896k The -20% Armor Pen is somewhat difficult to calculate, but it'd roughly remove another 300'ish damage off your first strike. Thus, the burst stealth assassin does a wholly of 4,6k - on perfect conditions - after the nerf with their strongest ability that not only requires positional placement, yet also Stealth. And only if you manage to crit cause your crit chance will probably be only ~ 60% ish. If you don't crit and you have an average of 90% Surge - which should be normal for a lvl 50 decently geared Operative using a Surge Relic - 2203 damage on a non crit with out a hardest hitting ability. And thats on a Sorc with no shield and not being guarded. If they put up their shield and run around with it constantly it will fully negate your opener and if you crit it'll be for a number less than 1k. This is quite clearly breaking the class. I can understand the time reduce on laying prone after hidden strike, I can even agree to lowering the damage or lowering the armor penetration - but 20% on BOTH is just overkill. On the contrary, there are alot of videos showing Juggernauts without the 20% Marauder Buff hitting up to 9K AoE crits using a Rage spec. They can be reproduced every 21 seconds, require no positional alignment, do not require stealth. If anything should be taken a look at it's balancing the Juggernaut trees before even touching a Burst Class that has less burst than a tank. And as for Operatives bursting down people in 3-4 seconds flat being a tank and having a healer on them, that is just pure BS. An Operative other than the initial crit does not hit hard enough anymore to kill someone that is being constantly healed. Let alone a tank that dodges, parries and shields most of the damage + has defensive cooldowns. Hell, you'll even have trouble killing a skilled, keyword -skilled- healing Sage on your own. Oh, and as for the people whining "Once those 1,5 seconds are over I can't do anything anymore" - Yeah well, try to use your slow/root ability. Sever Tendon. TL;DR Post patch Operatives will hit like wet noodles in PvP Juggernauts higher and less situational Burst Stealth useless when dotted by a Sage/Sorc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sathid Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) If they go through with this i would really like to know what the true reasoning is,but i will not hold my breathe. Fact is that the sorc/inquis/powertech already were doing a fine job taking our burst with gear on,now they will laugth at us and lets be honest those were the guys we targeted 90% of the time and those were guys that posted night and day to have us reduced and if this goes through they will have free reign,just watch. Should our intial burst be toned down some,yes i agree to an extent but they should also give something back with these changes. Add a buff that increases speed in or out of stealth for 5 sec's. Increase the damage of Quick shot and grenade. Lengthen Defense Screen some, For the Operative i do not know the terms but same as above in relation. Edited January 22, 2012 by Sathid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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