Jump to content

Sith warrior story fail, Malavai Quinn


Lassiec

Recommended Posts

Totally disappointed. When Quinn betrayes you, there must be choice to kill him permanently. How can a sith lord keep traitor aboard? Its nonsence. If Bioware thinks that he is fully punished just by little non-fatal choking and some scolding for betraying a SITH who killed ppl just for a pair wrong words, then Baras' betrayal can be handled the same way, lol. Just send to Baras an angry holo message, and its done. Totally ruins roleplay and now this 'storyline' for me is just a way to farm levels till max, i dont believe in it anymore. Edited by Lassiec
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 392
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Totally disappointed. When Quinn betrayes you, there must be choice to kill him permanently. How can a sith lord keep traitor aboard? Its nonsence. If Bioware thinks that he is fully punished just by little non-fatal choking and some scolding for betraying a SITH who killed ppl just for a pair wrong words, then Baras' betrayal can be handled the same way, lol. Just send to Baras an angry holo message, and its done. Totally ruins roleplay and now this 'storyline' for me is just a way to farm levels till max, i dont believe in it anymore.

 

The game's decided your character is more intelligent than you, pretty much.

 

By this I mean, not all Sith are 'RABBLE RABBLE BLOOD AND GUTS RABBLE RABBLE'.

 

Some are smart enough to recognize valuable resources and not waste them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The game's decided your character is more intelligent than you, pretty much.

 

By this I mean, not all Sith are 'RABBLE RABBLE BLOOD AND GUTS RABBLE RABBLE'.

 

Some are smart enough to recognize valuable resources and not waste them.

 

You mean something wrong. When you find out that your hired worker is stealing from you - you fire him. When soldier betrays his lord, lord must punish him in a strongest way. In the name of discipline and common sense - those who betray once, will do it again. Punish but not forgive and make him captain of your ship, this is completely madness even for Jedi. Sith simply couldnt do such thing, its unbelievable. If you thing that is pretty intelligent, then i dont know what to think about you.

Edited by Lassiec
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You mean something wrong. When you find out that your hired worker is stealing from you - you fire him. When soldier betrays his lord, lord must punish him in a strongest way. In the name of discipline and common sense - those who betray once, will do it again. Punish but not forgive and make him captain of your ship, this is completely madness even for Jedi. Sith simply couldnt do such thing, its unbelievable. If you thing that is pretty intelligent, then i dont know what to think about you.

 

Put it this way.

 

If Quinn was actually going to betray you, do you think he would have used -droids- to try and kill your character? I mean, he's seen what you've done to droids... he's seen what you've done to Jedi. No, if he was going to betray you he would have gotten you while you were asleep or just destroyed the station from your ship.

 

Sith would do such a thing. You wouldn't because you don't understand subtlety or the idea of -not- giving up a valuable resource.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I understand that traitors are not resources at all, they are dangerous enemies and permanent threat while alive. In this case forgiveness is a weakness, those who are weak have no rights to call themselves a sith. This conception ideally fits in sith roleplay. Edited by Lassiec
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I understand that traitors are not resources at all, they are dangerous enemies and permanent threat while alive. In this case forgiveness is a weakness, those who are weak dont have rights to call themselves a sith. This conception ideally fits in sith roleplay.

 

*Facepalm*

 

You understand nothing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's what I think happened you were probably able to kill him in the beta, But then people realised how much they needed quinn being a healer and all and imo your most valuable one. Because they did say people did complain in the beta after they had killed their companion and made tickets about getting them back
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The game's decided your character is more intelligent than you, pretty much.

 

By this I mean, not all Sith are 'RABBLE RABBLE BLOOD AND GUTS RABBLE RABBLE'.

 

Some are smart enough to recognize valuable resources and not waste them.

I assume then that there is no other imperial officer with medical training and a bit of strategic thinking out there, who would love to work directly under Emperor's Wrath?

 

Hell, even a stim vendor would do.

 

There is very simple way around it. Just allow players to adjust the role of their companions according to their likings. That way, Vette could become somewhat of a merc healer, Jaesa could develop sorc healing powers and Pierce could go for some operative training.

 

The way in which the decision is made for you is simply plain wrong and it doesn't matter if he's a "valuable resource". Right now we have "you stabbed me in the back and through me an idiot by thinking that 2 droids could take me out but you can heal so be nice and we cool" ********.

 

I really feel that when storylines are expanded, we could have an option to go back to this very situation (maybe a scene aboard the ship in which you tell the crew what happened and are then presented with an option to let him live or "you outlived your usefullness", thus killing him and replacing with different companion to not have -1 when crafting)

Edited by gibmachine
Link to comment
Share on other sites

it really did not shock me to learn that quinn betrays you

after all he owes a lot to your master lol its why when playing my char i always leave him in the dark about my true intentions

 

it is better to keep a enemey spy that you know about than risk having another sent

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Totally disappointed. When Quinn betrayes you, there must be choice to kill him permanently. How can a sith lord keep traitor aboard? Its nonsence. If Bioware thinks that he is fully punished just by little non-fatal choking and some scolding for betraying a SITH who killed ppl just for a pair wrong words, then Baras' betrayal can be handled the same way, lol. Just send to Baras an angry holo message, and its done. Totally ruins roleplay and now this 'storyline' for me is just a way to farm levels till max, i dont believe in it anymore.

 

I kinda figured that he was Baras' spy the moment he magically offered his services to me. Especially when he does so not 5 minutes after both him and Baras accused me of screwing up in Balmorra.

 

Thus when the betrayal actually occurred it wasn't so much an angry reaction for me, but a "Ah Quinn, I've been expecting you. What took you so long"

Edited by Lexandar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This really irked me since I had more than 9000 affection with him by that point. I would have preferred that at that affection level he'd at least say he was forced into the betrayal somehow. For him to tell me, at that affection level, that he basically thought I sucked, was just a total story/game mechanic disconnect.

 

And I agree that at that point I should have been able to split him in half in the most violent fit of rage I'd displayed up to that point. ...and then, since I NEED a healer companion, they should have let me bring him back as a brainwiped cyborg or something....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I just had a convo with Jaesa when she tells me about how she killed a false Sith. One of the options available to pick was "relish this feeling as there are few bigger pleasures than destroying traitors".

 

Yup, inability to kill Quinn makes perfect sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This really irked me since I had more than 9000 affection with him by that point. I would have preferred that at that affection level he'd at least say he was forced into the betrayal somehow. For him to tell me, at that affection level, that he basically thought I sucked, was just a total story/game mechanic disconnect.

 

And I agree that at that point I should have been able to split him in half in the most violent fit of rage I'd displayed up to that point. ...and then, since I NEED a healer companion, they should have let me bring him back as a brainwiped cyborg or something....

 

yeah bioware has never been able to do the story split off properly where something completly different happens but I do like your idea a lot

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The game's decided your character is more intelligent than you, pretty much.

 

By this I mean, not all Sith are 'RABBLE RABBLE BLOOD AND GUTS RABBLE RABBLE'.

 

Some are smart enough to recognize valuable resources and not waste them.

 

That is materialistic thinking though, which doesn't mesh with Sith philosophy. Someone who is a true disciple of the dark side, who really follows the spirit of Sith teachings, would absolutely butcher Quinn. Sparing him would be an act of mercy, and you do not show mercy on enemies, and Quinn made himself your enemy when he betrayed you. You might see it as a waste of resources, but are you really so weak that you might need Quinn for something at some point? If you are worried about what you are losing by killing Quinn, maybe you should look at becoming strong enough so you don't need to rely on him, or anyone else for that matter. That is how Sith operate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The option to kill him used to be in game, or in beta, rather.

 

Same with Ashara (Inquisitors)

 

Same with Kalyio, (probably) (agents).

 

(can't speak for the other classes or companions, but the points where you would have had these choices is obvious)

 

People took advantage of this, killed their companions.... and immediately regretted it because they needed them for something or another. They turned to Bioware in droves asking "Why u maek me lose my companion with permadeath?". Bioware then learned that no matter how clear they made the fact that your companions were going to die, both out of the game with interviews and such, and out with "warning" dialogues that required you choose the "kill him" choice more than once, people still didn't realize they could actually do it, and there would be a consequence for the decision.

Edited by Darth_Vicente
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Totally disappointed. When Quinn betrayes you, there must be choice to kill him permanently. How can a sith lord keep traitor aboard? Its nonsence. If Bioware thinks that he is fully punished just by little non-fatal choking and some scolding for betraying a SITH who killed ppl just for a pair wrong words, then Baras' betrayal can be handled the same way, lol. Just send to Baras an angry holo message, and its done. Totally ruins roleplay and now this 'storyline' for me is just a way to farm levels till max, i dont believe in it anymore.

 

I heard that it was possible to kill him after his betrayal in the early betas.

 

But thanks to the ignorace of some people who didn't understand that when you kill somebody, he will not remain by your side...

 

Personaly, I believe that alteast 30% of these were underage kids posing as matures.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know your own way, and assume that anyone who disagrees is stupid.

 

It's this type of "my way or you're WRONG" crap that has ruined these forums.

 

It's a game. Choice is good.

 

*Facepalm... again*

 

Alright let's put it -this- way.

 

The Sith who kills every single person, even if they are valuable, for no reason... isn't going to be a popular Sith. Isn't going to be a Sith who lasts long.

 

An intelligent Sith builds up two types of power: individual power and group power.

 

Individual power is the obvious one; to be a Sith you need physical and mental strength to be a threat on a personal basis. You have to be able to think, to rationalize, strategize and to back up these with either strength of arm or strength of Force (being strong in both is optimal). If you cannot do these, or lack the ability to do so by allowing your emotions to get to you then you become weaker (Palpatine during his triumphant moment against Luke, blind to Vader's betrayal).

 

You -need- individual power to succeed at first and just pass the trials to become the Apprentice to a Sith Lord. You also need to further develop this power in all aspects to link directly to the second power.

 

Group power; it sounds cliche but nearly all powerful Sith have a power base that they build from. You'll have allies in the Imperial Military, in the Republic, etc. (Darth Baras is a fantastic example). A Sith should have this built up as a fall back, they need ways to outsmart their enemies, to basically have strategies that go out beyond just smashing your way through enemy forces. A Sith, once they have this power base built, should also know when to eliminate those in their power base as well.

 

For example in the SW storyline, Baras is forced to eliminate a chunk of his power base because of Jaesa's powers. His spies are now compromised and need to be removed. This is generally the ideal moment you eliminate those working beneath you, when they can no longer serve your purposes fully.

 

With Quinn, he still has purposes to serve. We can see through the quests with him featuring that he has skills that outdo Pierce, who is himself Black Ops, which means elite of the military.

 

Quinn is a(n): Excellent tactician, medic, pilot, and tech (programmer, designer, computers, what have you). He's basically a one-man military staff. It really makes him invaluable at this point to the Warrior who, even though he is the Emperor's Wrath, will undoubtedly face forces in the future that will require him to fallback on Quinn's expertise.

 

Now why did Quinn betray us? Baras called in the favor Quinn owed him. Through Baras' protection Quinn had remained on Balmorra and away from superiors who hated him. Baras wanted Quinn to take us out, and Quinn's loyalty ultimately brought about his betrayal.

 

Now, if anyone had read the codex entry on Quinn, they'd know that he is duty-bound and honorable. Darth Baras, as said earlier, was instrumental in Quinn's early successes. Our warrior would know how duty-bound and loyal Quinn was by just listening to the guy speak whenever they were in front of Baras.

 

So Bioware taking out the option to kill him is basically Bioware saying 'You're Sith is smarter than you'. It's not meant to be an insult, it's just a fact. Even if we ignored it for the most part, our character would know that Quinn was a creature of Baras due mostly to the fact Baras helped him so much.

 

Our character would also know that Quinn still has uses, uses which still make him irreplaceable at this point.

 

In closing, to give an example of this idea, I'll draw attention to Palpatine once more.

 

Palpatine saw uses for Dooku, up until the point he knew he had Anakin in his power which is when he had his Apprentice killed. With Anakin he kept him around as an Apprentice once more until the point he found Luke.

 

It isn't out of care or feeling that our characters keep Quinn around (unless ya married him I guess... or genuinely like the guy), but it's out of his usefulness. Once our characters get to the point where they: Find someone like Quinn, find someone better than Quinn or no longer need someone like Quinn, then story-wise, Quinn would be killed for his betrayal.

 

I'd let Pierce do it.

 

Last point, this is just to make it more simplified.

 

If you were in a war and had access to a mine filled with valuable resources, then one day found enemy miners inside taking the resources. Would you really blow up the mine, cutting off some nice minerals and etc. for you just to not allow your enemy to have it? Or would you watch the mine more closely to make sure your enemy doesn't get to it?

Edited by DarkestDaemon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It isn't out of care or feeling that our characters keep Quinn around (unless ya married him I guess... or genuinely like the guy), but it's out of his usefulness. Once our characters get to the point where they: Find someone like Quinn, find someone better than Quinn or no longer need someone like Quinn, then story-wise, Quinn would be killed for his betrayal.

 

I'm inclined to agree with you here however, I'm gonna be very disappointed (read I'm gonna rage as ****) if Quinn's betrayal won't be touched in future storylines.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm inclined to agree with you here however, I'm gonna be very disappointed (read I'm gonna rage as ****) if Quinn's betrayal won't be touched in future storylines.

 

I'm sure, and hope it will. My character chose not to tell everyone but I'm looking at it as a deeper motive for him. It's something he has over Quinn's head. It's something he can say when Quinn finally runs out of being useful... if it never happens then I will be somewhat disappointed.

 

But at the same time I think Quinn's tratior ideals have run their course. He was a pawn of Baras, with the Darth dead/exiled/imprisoned then he has no more loyalty to Baras and your own patronage will eventually supplant that offered by Baras. Whether this will have an affect on future storylines and decisions is up in the air. I'd personally keep Quinn around just because of how well he's proven himself. I think the guy will have given up on trying to kill me just out of fear... choking a person with your mind and then throwing them into a wall is getting off light in the case of my Sith... as many story choices would reflect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes and no (though more yes than no). For every Palpatine there's a hundred braindead Vaders.

 

The Sith Warrior's always portrayed and treated as a meathead. Virtually every single major NPC has something to say about your intellect (or lack of). To them you're a moron but a powerful moron whose primary recourse is to hit stuff until they stop annoying you. And, if you choose to be that way, they're right.

 

Except the beauty of the SW story's writing is that it permits you to be either. You can choose to kill everything you see or you can choose to be a deeply insidious Sith who's seen by everyone as a moron but is actually a master. The beauty of the story is that you overwhelmingly have the choice, compared to, say the Sith Inquisitor who's railroaded into making moronic choices without any Machiavellian recourse:

 

 

Why yes Lord Thanaton, of course I'll go into this tomb with you alone, I'm sure nothing bad will ever happen here

 

 

What pisses off most people is that, often without realising that, throughout the storyline they had the choice. Now with Quinn that choice is gone and, because they've gotten so used to it, get pissed off.

 

I personally expected Quinn's betrayal since Balmorra so wasn't overly pissed when it (finally) came about. When I actually saw his betrayal I finally realised that he was so stupid he never could've been a threat:

 

 

Two non elite droids and yourself Quinn? Really? Are you utterly stupid? Wouldn't it have been much easier to just not heal me as I'm barely fighting off bad **** by the Avatars of Sel-Makor? Does your health insurance only cover the Transponder Vessel and not everywhere else?

 

 

I disagree with you about Quinn's betrayal. After knowing what he knows (and, potentially after being blown up by Baras as well on Quesh) he still opts to oppose the SW? Ignoring the fact that he could've just assisted Lord Draagh (at any point on Vengean's pad/Quesh/Hoth) why didn't the fact that Baras almost killed him (twice) nullify his honor bound obligations? Instead, when you throttle him to the edge of his life or show mercy he changes his mind and swears himself to you? It is somewhat stupid.

 

I only showed him mercy on him because it was such a laughably half assed attempt and I only spared his social standing (by not telling anyone) because otherwise half my crew would probably gut laugh to death. Then who'd fly my Fury or give me a foot massage?

Edited by LexiCazam
IC/old post
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes and no (though more yes than no). For every Palpatine there's a hundred braindead Vaders.

 

The Sith Warrior's always portrayed and treated as a meathead. Virtually every single major NPC has something to say about your intellect (or lack of). To them you're a moron but a powerful moron whose primary recourse is to hit stuff until they stop annoying you. And, if you choose to be that way, they're right.

 

Except the beauty of the SW story's writing is that it permits you to be either. You can choose to kill everything you see or you can choose to be a deeply insidious Sith who's seen by everyone as a moron but is actually a master. The beauty of the story is that you overwhelmingly have the choice, compared to, say the Sith Inquisitor who's railroaded into making moronic choices without any Machiavellian recourse.

 

See, I still chose the route of killing everyone... but I always had it in my mind in a different sense than the meatheaded approach. Especially when it came to the War Trust and etc. where I would promise one thing then kill them anyways.

 

I disagree with you about Quinn's betrayal. After knowing what he knows (and, potentially after being blown up by Baras as well on Quesh) he still opts to oppose the SW? Ignoring the fact that he could've just assisted Lord Draagh (at any point on Vengean's pad/Quesh/Hoth) why didn't the fact that Baras almost killed him (twice) nullify his honor bound obligations? Instead, when you throttle him to the edge of his life or show mercy he changes his mind and swears himself to you?

 

I only showed him mercy on him because it was such a laughably half assed attempt and I only spared his social standing (by not telling anyone) because otherwise half my crew would probably gut laugh to death. Then who'd fly my Fury or give me a foot massage?

 

To this, the best I can say is, Quinn is a droid. Not literally, of course, but he has a set way things work in his mind. I think this is endorsed by those who romanced him who found just how hard he was to reel in.

 

As for Quesh, I don't believe any of our companions were with us despite what who we bring in game. In many ways, for a lot of encounters, our characters just seem to be there because we brought them along. Very rarely do they voice any of their opinions.

 

But, that point can be left open for interpretation to each and every player.

 

Anyways, back to the 'droid' thing. You brought up a truly excellent point that can support my loyalty argument. He really did do a half-assed attempt! He knows my character can cut through droids like they were younglings. If he truly wanted me dead he could have fabricated a lie that sent the entire crew, save for himself, onto the ship. Then used the weapon systems on the Fury to blow it apart.

 

So this brings up the question... was Quinn truly doing everything in his power to betray you? Or was he trying to resolve his own moral quandary by making a show of betrayal without the intent of winning?

Edited by LexiCazam
IC/quote
Link to comment
Share on other sites

See, I still chose the route of killing everyone... but I always had it in my mind in a different sense than the meatheaded approach. Especially when it came to the War Trust and etc. where I would promise one thing then kill them anyways.

 

Oh yes for my two playthroughs I went "rawr smash" the first time and then went into careful consideration the 2nd time

 

 

I COULD kill Grathan's son like a good drone (and did the first time). Or I could secure a valuable ally in his son.

 

I COULD kill Nomen Karr, or I could show the Jedi Order how one of their greatest is, in essence, little different from the Sith.

 

I COULD break Jaesa and put up with her wrist cutting tendences. Or I could make her think she's winning and retain her services without hearing about how pain turns her on

 

I COULD kill Master Timmns, or I could get him to brutally murder a defenseless prisoner and send him back to the Jedi Order a lesser man.

 

 

The beauty of the SW storyline, unlike most other storylines, is that you had that option, the one which appeared dark or goody two shoes at first glance, but, upon deeper reflection, was anything but.

 

To this, the best I can say is, Quinn is a droid. Not literally, of course, but he has a set way things work in his mind. I think this is endorsed by those who romanced him who found just how hard he was to reel in.

 

He is a sadly deficient droid who couldn't murder 2V-C8

 

As for Quesh, I don't believe any of our companions were with us despite what who we bring in game. In many ways, for a lot of encounters, our characters just seem to be there because we brought them along. Very rarely do they voice any of their opinions.

 

To which I point out that in Hoth's airlock, Lord Draagh bumps into you after bumping into your crew. Presumably Lord Draagh didn't know that Quinn was on his side as he royally beat the **** out of him as well.

 

Also Quinn did state that he's studied my combat performance (yet another hilarious, vaguely homoerotic comment), which, disturbingly, Darth Charnus does also (yes my SW is a ****** but he doesn't swing that way folks... If Talos Drellik was around sure...). If he had actually paid attention to any of the homework he did he'd know that 2 non elite droids and himself wouldn't really qualify for the top 50 difficult encounters my warrior faces.

 

But, that point can be left open for interpretation to each and every player.

 

Anyways, back to the 'droid' thing. You brought up a truly excellent point that can support my loyalty argument. He really did do a half-assed attempt! He knows my character can cut through droids like they were younglings. If he truly wanted me dead he could have fabricated a lie that sent the entire crew, save for himself, onto the ship. Then used the weapon systems on the Fury to blow it apart.

 

I did think of that as I was typing. But noone displays that amount of smugness if they're doing a deliberately half-assed thing. Seriously, the VA in the Betrayal Five incident made his usual smug, contemptful and arrogant tone modest by comparison. And this is considering that him and Baras both contemptfully call you an incompetent moron on Balmorra. Moreover, he begs the SW like a emaciated dog not to mention how royally he screwed up to the rest, mostly for fear that their collective laughter would resonate in his skull for the rest of his days.

 

Finally if that were truly the case that he didn't want to betray you, why didn't he just come out with it? Out of fear of being seen to be incompetent? That attempt made Thana's intellect look inspired.

 

So this brings up the question... was Quinn truly doing everything in his power to betray you? Or was he trying to resolve his own moral quandary by making a show of betrayal without the intent of winning?

 

To be honest, that might have been the case if it wasn't for his smug tone before the fight or that he doesn't explain himself afterwards. I mean anyone who put up such a poor show has a lot of explaining to do ;). Rather he appears genuinely dumbstruck at how his lame-assed trap couldn't do what a wondering elite patrol has more likelihood of doing.

Edited by Lexandar
Link to comment
Share on other sites


×
×
  • Create New...