I'm not just talking about the Devs, but the community team as well. Scroll back through the dev tracker as far as you want and what you will see is a list of game bugs and cartel market update stuff.

 

I follow allot of different games and what I notice from most of those games is not only the community team addressing the community but also the developers, we rarely get either of these interactions. Allot of other games do regular Q&A to the community as well, things like what do you like most?, What would you like changed?, What would you like added?, Top 5 things about the game and bottom 5 things ect. I would like to note that when eric started he did do a question of the day but they were limited almost always to the cartel market or things like favourite companions or class story and never anything to draw up needed debate.

 

 

Class Rep System

 

The class rep system was designed to do something that should have been happening all along, get some dialogue going and start addressing some of the issues each class has. The community has ALWAYS been asking questions though, why does it take some sort of new initiative just to get the devs talking to us about these things? I largely feel the class system was introduced just to hold the community over until 2.4 came out, its pretty evident too putting the classes in need of more attention at the end of the list making them hold off as much as possible while Devs scrounge up a new thing to distract or maybe even actually attempt to balance the game after 6 months.

 

What I'm trying to get at is the community is largely ignored in this game, we are not getting the regular interactions that we need and when we do it becomes a PR nightmare for you guys cause it seems you guys don't even know how to talk to us. While on the subject of being ignored how come a 600 reply thread on the PTS went completely ignored by the devs and seemed to be deleted now

 

 

I would personally love to see daily interaction from the community team and have the Developers poke their head in here at least on a weekly basis, talk to us about things they might be working on or give us some insight on something. I would like to see the class rep system go too, there is no need for a system that forces the devs to talk class balance with us, this should have always been happening.

Edited September 24, 2013 by HoboWithAStick

Is there something you demand from BW that they dare not to implement? or is it that 'Bioware AUSTIN has some PR issues right now' again?

 

Software developers should concentrate on their work and leave public relations to team specializing in just that. Unfortunately 'community' in the forum perspective refers to subscribers only and judging from the quality of the threads in the forums it is not easy to interact with this community. It is obvious that this forums are moderated but BW representatives see not thread worthwhile to reply to and move along. Most of the questions or request have already received an answer but people still feel like that is not enough and demand more. You just can not satisfy attention hungry subscribers

Edited September 24, 2013 by ELRunninW

cuz most of the player base isn't even on those forums, and a good deal of those who actually are, are mostly QQers who won't see reason, so better off not wasting time with them altogether

Given how incredibly toxic this community can be, can you honestly blame them for not interacting more? As it is, a lot of the time when they post something it immediately starts getting derided and picked apart.

there are a team of "white knights" or "bioware defenders" hired by EA to communicate with the players on the forums. their goal is to create a toxic environment, so if anyone wants to actually play the game, they will either stay away from the forums or quit.

 

there have actually been a few big pushes for more community feedback from the community team (led by eric, before him joveth, before him stephen. maybe one i missed in there). they make a few posts, and it's quite exciting for a couple weeks, but it always dies out quick and gets depressing (likely because of EA's "white knight" initiatives above).

 

jeff hickman also had some lofty intentions with "state of the game" updates when he took over his position. there were about 3 of them before they died out.

Given how incredibly toxic this community can be, can you honestly blame them for not interacting more? As it is, a lot of the time when they post something it immediately starts getting derided and picked apart.

 

Talk about hitting the nail on the head, take a look at the post immediately following yours. ;p

 

...and I do happen to agree. How would one expect honest and forthright communication to exist with the level of vitriol we witness here.

Would you voluntarily go to a place where people regularly and repeatedly deride a price of work you may have dedicated years of your life to, cast doubts on your level of intelligence and at times outright question your parentage?

 

A place where no matter what course of action is taken there will be some section of the community that descends into hyperbolic rant mode every single time without fail?

 

Because I'm pretty sure most folk wouldn't.

Talk about hitting the nail on the head, take a look at the post immediately following yours. ;p

 

...and I do happen to agree. How would one expect honest and forthright communication to exist with the level of vitriol we witness here.

 

Yeah isn't it hysterical when someone posts something and another person confirms it almost instantly. lol

 

Communication is so much better under Eric. Is it where it should be in my opinion? No. I feel like they could do more to reply to a larger swath of threads regardless of civility and maturity levels contained within. I wish we could get a run through of a day in the life of a community manager and developer for Bioware. Would be nice to see behind the scenes and see what they deal with...

Consider the fact that most of the threads can not be actually answered to. What would one answer to this thread?

 

You are incorrect considering we are not listening to community...

 

Isn't that what has already been posted many, many times? Just because there is no answer in a thread it does not mean no one reads it. Does one really need personal confirmation? What if the same person creates identical thread a week later? Should he get an answer again? What should the answer be this time?

Talk about hitting the nail on the head, take a look at the post immediately following yours. ;p

 

...and I do happen to agree. How would one expect honest and forthright communication to exist with the level of vitriol we witness here.

 

this probably isn't the place to be talking about the vitriol related to paid forum posters.

 

that conversation is going on here

At this current moment while the forums are a lot more fans of the game despite it flaws .

Most are distrustfull and hostile towards the rep and dev , the reasons on both side are more then justified .

 

But it is very hard to heal the rift , while both party has good intentions , the cooperate structure prevents DEV or even Rep , from giving promises they cannot keep , cause of there hands being tied .

 

It is maybe, the problem that both side are too intelligent , but none of the rep or dev dares to put his feet down afraid of the backlash , the community while wanting interaction , only turns things into negative emotional spin .

I cannot say a solution , but definetly work on the trust issue of subs , to gain back a bit of forum support .

Start with a clean slate , even if some here still only have hostile juvenile intentions .

Because of the 200 devs they had prior to 1.1, they now have about 20.

Because of the 200 devs they had prior to 1.1, they now have about 20.

 

You think it is fun for DEV to see there friends being fired ? Or a team being torn apart cause of profit issue .

EA is not heartless , but sadly in the end it is results that counts , and overhead cost had to go down .

EA is hated but they still are loved by investors cause they keep a eye on annual profit and cost

Sadly in this world , it means stepping over a lot of people . I do not approve of that system ,

But with THQ shutdown , it proves a lot of fans no matter what think of themself first , the consequences later.

 

If tommorow the game shut down , you will hear a lot of ruckus and moans , but no real result in the end ,

This is what drives the cooperate structure to do whatever heck they feel like doing .

But for a MMO to succeed in that , people are not numbers ! Something EA fails to recognise .

this probably isn't the place to be talking about the vitriol related to paid forum posters.

 

that conversation is going on here

 

God God, there is actually discussion on it?

 

I dunno. If we were all civil in our discourse, without the vitriol, hysteria, and drama, with legitimate reasoning, the "spies" would be far more accurately noted. Not unlike the perpetual negative poster, they would stand out and regardless of conspiracy existence, be duly eliminated as a source of fairness and reason. We know there are issues with the game, so there would be many a time when some wanna-be mole would either have to agree or be discredited....without being called all manner of vile insult.

 

I honestly do not care either way. I just keep digging through the manure. Just like everyone else....

Consider the fact that most of the threads can not be actually answered to. What would one answer to this thread?

 

Doesn't warrant one, I think.

 

Just kinda a shout-out (is that the word they are using these days?) in the dark, no?

I'm thinking that if one catches it, title says it all. If they are interested in good relations, whether they agree or not, they will look inside. I would.

Class questions thing being such a resounding "success" probably didn't help either.

 

People want the devs to talk. Almost without exception in this games history when they did people got upset cos devs didn't say what they wanted to hear or like how they said it.

 

People now reminisce about Georg and his posts. But he took more than his fair share of flack for his insights. Who in their right mind is going to want to subject himself to that on a prolonged basis.

 

I'm giving Musco 3 more months tops.

As I've explained before (and thus marking me as a "horrible developer"), if I were the development lead for this game, I would instruct my developers to avoid the forum.

 

Why? Because its not worth the hit to team morale. Even if you know that the complainers are just a fraction of the user base, the comments are toxic, and not in the way that the "conscientious complainers" claim. Because so much of the criticism is hyperbole and couched in false information, many developers won't see it as an exaggerated commentary, they'll see it as the ramblings of people who don't know what they're talking about and are insulting the people who do understand. That is more likely to cause apathy than a feeling of "We need to fix this".

 

Apathetic developers are the last thing anyone wants.

 

And in case anyone is going to start the same accusation again: Yes, I do know what I'm talking about. I've worked on a number of teams providing services to large numbers of customers. My current job has a larger customer base than SWTOR, with a smaller amount of customer feedback and I was still advised to avoid reading any of it.

 

The few times I interacted directly with the user base resulted in negative experiences. I was told that I was a complete idiot by a 17 year old garage band leader who didn't even read directions. I was called a incompetent immigrant by a forum after advising them to perform fairly standard security measures. And I was told that I should quit my job and work at a fry station by some store manager because he didn't understand that what he was asking for wasn't possible (even after it was explained to him). At the same time, I've helped thousands of appreciative people, but I don't ever talk to them. I only ever talk to a tiny percentage of customers, so a few jerks become a significant portion of my customer interaction.

 

"Get a spine," a bunch of people have told me. Thanks. I'll be fine. I understand the percentages and the prevalence of idiots in the world. But despite my love of logic, the effect is still there: My interactions with customers are now mechanical and minimized, and anyone who complains loudly is pre-judged to be one of those people who complains first and thinks later. Is it fair? Not really. But that's what happens when a few jerks get free rein to interact with developers. Reports of horrible bugs are treated with skepticism, because I and my coworkers have learned that customers lie to try to get attention. Complaints about service are discarded, as I'm not paid for customer service.

 

It's sad, and if you think that my employer is the only company that sees this pattern, you're fooling yourself. The same thing happens with Bioware, I'm sure of it. And the more important point is this: So long as the community supports the people who post insults, hyperbole, and selfish demands, you're unlikely to get much developer interaction.

 

And the rest of us are better off for it.

I'm thinking that if one catches it, title says it all. If they are interested in good relations, whether they agree or not, they will look inside. I would.

 

Yes, and they do I am sure, there is someone responsible for that. We are talking about actually posting some sort of reply, which is impossible without repeating the same thing.

"Did I ever tell you what the definition of insanity is?"

Edited September 24, 2013 by ELRunninW

Because developers can't speak on game forums without risk of the player base taken it as written in stone. The giant backlash that occurs when developers have to change plans or push development out isn't worth speaking casually on the forums.

 

I don't blame them one bit. If they do speak, at least its usually cleared with the project managers and it has less of a chance or being changed.

 

Still on topic...

 

Asking for road maps and insight into the future of game is not owed to you nor should you ever expect it. You are not a developer or employee in the company and that information is usually reserved for the project teams. Asking for that kind of data is foolish at best and at worst, grand entitlement.

 

I really appreciate community communication but you have to understand it is a double edge sword and due to the toxicity of these communities sometimes its better to wait instead of releasing information early.

@Malastare , you have to realise , that majority of the profit in F2P market is based on interaction with the customers.

Especially in this time , sadly yes customers are rude , customers think only way to get something is being a bully .

Cause logical reasonable request are not being handled , customers don't want to take a no for answer .

 

Everybody seen those kind of customers once in there life in real life ,

Problem is you can't let those customers upset you , partly the problem of interaction with current generation customers, is that they are devoid of logic , they never want to admit they are wrong .

Rather slander insult you for being negative , angry , whatever they can come up with .

some of them are going so far to even dare to out death threats out ! That should never be tolerated .

Cause people are mental instable or handicapped in some way or emotional attached .

It doesn't excuse them from being abyssmal human .

 

But problem is also as customer , I seen tons of dev of products lie to the trustworthy customer base .

Spin tales they couldn't fullfill in a million years , is there is a grain of logic .

Marketing is the problem , most people who are educated already see trough tons of marketing scemes .

Those who are not already know something is wrong , but for a F2P MMO to succeed aside from short term .

The interaction is a must , so is customer support , why ? Lets say you are trying to validate there support .

Not insult them , happy customers is spending customers , sometimes DEV , Community manager .

Fail to realise it , that holds double true for Micro management system .

Unhappy customers no matter the huge amount of investment will walk away .

Since the current market is flooded with micro management system , it won't last forever before it grows old !

 

Now about your post really sensible and true , but you can't let jerks get to you .

And trust me the forum of the past was a cesspool of crying little babies who attacked insulted , gang report posts.

That any logical request or common decency was abandon really quick .

What 2013 brings is sometimes telling the truth , being insulted for incompentence how painfull .

Will work more wonders on the decent people , the trolls will troll and use those words to haunt you .

But if you have no regret of saying that , and without harming your position or support of the company you work for .

It goes out a long way in creating a fan + dev + support base , and profits margin are a lot higher .

 

Sadly I do not know if current SWTOR is ready for such state , cause there is too much hate and idiocy among both side , the few trolls really need to lay back a bit and squashed .

EA I dislike EA , but truth is they never ever did me any harm , infact they were more then good to me as customer.

But the qaulity is not what I am used to , it is a bit like steam hiring temp student to solve there support or young technicians , who only reply are insults and lies , instead of understanding the issue .

Those cause more harm , to a product cause the reprenstation shows .

So don't think it is a one way street communication . It takes two to tango .

@Malastare , you have to realise , that majority of the profit in F2P market is based on interaction with the customers.

Especially in this time , sadly yes customers are rude , customers think only way to get something is being a bully .

Cause logical reasonable request are not being handled , customers don't want to take a no for answer .

 

.

 

Your entire argument is based on "assumption as truth".

 

Your first sentence cant even be proven or reasonably assumed. If this is the basis of your argument then the rest of your post is on much weaker ground.

 

Forums are filled with assumptions as truth and youre not the first to do so.

Edited September 25, 2013 by Arkerus

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=5902536&postcount=18

 

Do you read the same forums I do?

 

How many threads are here insulting the skill or even the intelligence of the developers? As a project manager, the first thing I'd do is tell my developers to stay away from the Forum. Let the community managers handle it. The morale hit simply isn't worth it. Even Bioware's founders listed it as one of the reasons they were willing to leave: the vitriol tossed at them for not catering to every users whim took away a lot of the fun they had in making games.

 

We have people here criticizing the developers and the managers despite having no knowledge (or, just as often, only laughably incorrect information) about how development is done. "They should put everyone to work on space combat", "They should stop making cartel items and put people to work on bugs!" These are humorously silly statements, showing that someone has no idea what they're talking about. Yet they get echoed and paraded about here as if they're wisdom. The result is a pretty simple message: The community doesn't have any experience or knowledge about software. Its a waste of time to explain to them what stage you're at. They're just going to misinterpret it.

 

And then we have people who simply cannot handle information which isn't 100% guaranteed. Take a look at the Pazaak thread I posted in earlier. During closed beta, one of the devs announced that they hoped to add Pazaak in one of the first major updates after release. Now we have forum members crying that they lied about a promise because its not in. It was never a promise. It was just a hope. A developer shared their hope for what the game might be, and now someone is using that moment of openness with the community as a weapon to insult them.

 

Why would anyone share any further plans with a community that does that?

 

And even when they do things right, people complain. Sometimes, the same person will complain on both sides of an issue. If there's a bug, people will whine that it needs to be fixed immediately. Then, when it does get fixed, they'll whine about downtime. They whine when there are items added to the Cartel Market, and when its been a week without new Cartel items. It seems that every feature, every change, every departure from status quo is met with whining. And if they ever let the status quo go on too long: Crying about how the game is dead.

 

And yes, before anyone states it, that's all pretty normal for MMOs. But that doesn't mean that the community isn't responsible for its actions or that it should get to demand that the devs ignore their immature and selfish behavior. Your $15 sub gives you the privilege of playing the game, not berating people with a job you couldn't hope to understand. If the community decides to be toxic to the devs, then I fully expect the devs to step away from the community and restrict communication to rare, sanitized posts from the community managers.

 

You want actual communication with the devs? Try making them feel like they're a welcome part of the community.

 

This is why.

I dont think their are any more devs working on swtor, it didnt make enough

Your entire argument is based on "assumption as truth".

 

Your first sentence cant even be proven or reasonably assumed. If this is the basis of your argument then the rest of your post is on much weaker ground.

 

Forums are filled with assumptions as truth and youre not the first to do so.

 

Here it comes , lets take LOL , the product is solid , you do not have to spent if you do not wish too .

Why do people spend there especially hardcore gamers ? Who can easily grind the stuff out .

Cause they think they are supporting the company while they have FUN !

Or is that a assumption too ? You accuse me of assumptions with your own assumptions .

 

So what are you doing care to back it up with experience ?

Because

1. even though people often say they want to hear dev say something, they often don't like what the Dev has to say,

2. deride them

3. make unreasonable demands,

4. they are told they do a ****** job,

5. jump all over comments over a single misphrase, even when meaning is obvious

6. play armchair developer when they have no idea how stuff works.