Jump to content

Is Imperial xenophobia justified?


Beniboybling

Recommended Posts

Originally it seemed to me that xenophobia within the Sith Empire was just an illogical cultural trait that emerged from them enslaving every alien they came across and only humans and Sith ever holding positions of power. And that anyone in their right mind would be able to see what a waste of material it is to prevent aliens from holding positions within the military, becoming Sith Lords etc. because all in all they are no less competent than the next man.

 

However according to the SWTORE slavery is hereditary, descendants of slaves become slaves. Which effectively means that almost every alien in the Sith Empire, is or was a slave. And again according to the SWTORE only through exceptional service can slaves be freed from bondage and do something a little less menial.

 

Basically what this means is that most if not all aliens would be fairly incompetent, they'd have no education, little martial discipline, little knowledge of Sith politics, and altogether lacking in the thoroughbred experience that all human and Sith members of the population go through. They are actually incompetent, so allowing aliens into the Empire's hierarchy is effectively giving half-wit slaves power in the Empire - which I can understand might be considered a foolish move.

 

So would anyone else agree or disagree here? Is Imperial xenophobia justified? I normal RP as a Sith Lord who doesn't give a damn about what species you are and that made my Sith feel more intelligent, but I'm having second thoughts.

 

TL;DR - Aliens are all slaves, they are therefore crappy and stupid! Maybe...

 

P.S. I'm not proposing a moral debate here. I'm approaching this purely from an RP perspective of a Sith/Imperial.

Edited by Beniboybling
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd say the Sith rationale for xenophilia and slavery (i.e. hierarchy) makes more sense than the rationale of the rest of the galaxy, where slavery is based purely on profit and xenophilia in the Republic is just a matter of "Ew, you look different!" with no solid basis.

 

And the Inquisitor storyline, as well as Darth Bane's backstory, both show that slave life is not completely set in stone in the Sith way of life, and that if you exhibit power potential unworthy of a slave's position, you're given the opportunity to elevate yourself and won't be held back just because of your background, provided that you are willing to step over other people to do so. You might get picked on by other Sith for your slave background just like the Inquisitor and Bane were at first, but if you're powerful enough, their taunts won't matter because eventually they'll all end up bowing before you when all is said and done.

 

That's just how Sith work. Maybe for the Imperials (mainly the humans) it's a matter of old-fashioned racism, but I've always had the feeling that Sith didn't really care what species you were or what your social background was, as long as you showed strength and ruthlessness needed to get stronger.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's only recently that slaves could even become Sith because the Empire needs force users more than it needs traditions. This whole struggle within the Sith order is highly visible on Korriban on both SW and Inq.

 

As far as I know, until relatively recently, force sensitive slaves weren't trained, regardless of species.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's only recently that slaves could even become Sith because the Empire needs force users more than it needs traditions. This whole struggle within the Sith order is highly visible on Korriban on both SW and Inq.

 

As far as I know, until relatively recently, force sensitive slaves weren't trained, regardless of species.

Which is all the more reason to be prejudiced I suppose, aliens brought up not as slaves probably just don't exist.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This line of thought necessitates the Imperial in question as being unable to conceive of the possibility of nonhumans not being slaves anywhere, and I'm pretty sure that not even they are that dumb. So, no, it's still completely insane.

Never underestimate the ability of people to hold mutually contradictory ideas in their heads. Again, look at the history of the American South.

 

Thomas Jefferson was a man who wrote one of the most famous sentences in the political history of the entire world: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, and that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." (Italics mine.) He also held dozens of men and women in human bondage, raped at least one, and paid other people to bring those men and women back to him when they escaped. There is no way to construe this behavior as anything other than the most base and blatant hypocrisy. Yet it was not only common, it was common among people who today are still regarded as some of the brightest political minds ever.

 

At least Jefferson claimed that slavery was an evil, albeit a "necessary" one that was difficult to get rid of, and his sentiment was largely echoed by his contemporaries even in the South. A few decades later, however, men like John Calhoun could argue, with the ideological backing of virtually the entire Slave Power, that slavery was not only necessary, but good, and that it was in fact the natural order of things for white men to rule over blacks. Such was the way the world was meant to work; everybody else was Doing It Wrong. Like Jefferson, Calhoun was neither stupid nor insane. His arguments were self-serving, yes, of course. But he also genuinely believed them.

 

The Sith might very well claim something similar. Enslaving others based on hereditary traits was simply the way the galaxy was meant to work. And since the Sith Empire worked so well (har), its enslavement was justified by results. Societies that failed to recognize the vast body of people who "ought" to be slaves based on their personal and hereditary skill (or lack thereof) were wrong and inferior, fit only to be defeated and punished.

You will be surprised at some of the answers you'll hear from people. 150+ years later, and attitudes over slavery are still far from unanimous.

I TA undergraduate history courses. No, I wouldn't be surprised. :p

Edited by Euphrosyne
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seeing how Empire has Darwinism in its core, the xenophobia is completely natural. In nature you don't see much love between the species.

 

The thing is, most of the racism I've observed has been mainly on the Empire's part, not necessarily by the Sith themselves; the most explicit example of Sith racism I can remember was that one Sith on Korriban who wanted you to scan several Lords to see how much Sith blood they have. For the most part, the Sith seem to be more or less "species blind"; the only thing they really care about is strength and power. They're still hardcore nihilistic Darwinists, but theirs is based not on species but more on "Force users= strong, non-Force users= inferior."

 

Ironically, had the early Sith Lords been as xenophobic as the human Imperials are during the Old Republic, the Sith Order probably would've never gotten off the ground, since their survival depended on them mixing with the Sith species. Remember, the dark Jedi of the Second Schism were already of differing species, all united in their devotion to the Dark Side. Fast forward to the Golden Age, where all the high-ranking Lords of the Sith Empire were of the Sith species, and even the Old Republic where the Emperor and several Dark Councilors were of the Sith species.

 

I think this is a huge contributing factor in the differences between the Sith Lords and the human Imperials as far as aliens go. Inter-species mingling is a core part of Sith history and identity--the Sith species owe it to the arrival of the first Dark Lords for their uplifting and advancement in galactic power--they went from being a primitive pre-spaceflight species on a forgotten planet to becoming one of the major power players in galactic politics for the next several centuries--and the dark Jedi exiles owed the continued survival of their way of life to the Sith species--they started off a handful of banished Jedi beaten and dismissed by the order they rebelled against and ended up the single greatest enemy of the free galaxy.

Edited by Sanguiluna
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Was racism in the antebellum American South justified?"

 

Same exact argument.

^This. So very much, this.^

You will be surprised at some of the answers you'll hear from people. 150+ years later, and attitudes over slavery are still far from unanimous.

Those attitudes are, however, a reliable way of identifying pond scum. While not everyone who finds slavery morally repugnant is necessarily a good person, it's a pretty safe bet that anyone who finds it acceptable is a piece of... well, something not very pleasant.

 

Let's play this out though:

There's a difference between inherent attributes and acquired attributes. Any level of "incompetence" from slaves is an acquired attribute, a denial of the opportunity to learn and acquire the necessary skills, but the prevailing attitude in the Empire is that humans and purebloods are inherently superior. They don't resist giving a Twi'lek command because he was never properly trained in tactics/logistics/etc., they resist giving a Twi'lek command because he's a Twi'lek, and that's as far as the Empire's consideration of the matter goes.

 

The institution of slavery also imposes this acquired incompetence on individuals without any regard for their potential, which is why 90% of the Empire's claims of being a meritocracy are either propaganda or delusional.

 

The hereditary aspect of slavery is an aggravating aspect of the system, not a mitigating one. Setting aside the moral repugnance of treating a sapient being as property under any circumstances (since I recall you don't care for using 'subjective' standards like morality in determining whether something is "justified"), it is certainly both inefficient and inconsistent with the tenants of a meritocracy to have that status imposed on an individual due to no fault of their own or consideration of their individual abilities/potential. Force-sensitive slaves may have recently been allowed to move out of the slave caste due to overwhelming necessity to replenish the Sith ranks, but they are the exception - the rule itself, the institution of hereditary slavery, is fundamentally broken.

Edited by DarthDymond
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I RP my sith as being heavily aware of it, and still...holding his own judgements, but he's smart enough to be willing to awknowledge power regardless of if somebody is a slave or not.

 

 

I don't think it's JUSTIFIED...but I think if you're going to RP a sithy sith, then yes, you wouldn't exactly be overly friendly to alien species(even if they aren't slaves)

 

Then again some non traditional sith might not care as much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's play this out though:

There's a difference between inherent attributes and acquired attributes. Any level of "incompetence" from slaves is an acquired attribute, a denial of the opportunity to learn and acquire the necessary skills, but the prevailing attitude in the Empire is that humans and purebloods are inherently superior. They don't resist giving a Twi'lek command because he was never properly trained in tactics/logistics/etc., they resist giving a Twi'lek command because he's a Twi'lek, and that's as far as the Empire's consideration of the matter goes.

 

The institution of slavery also imposes this acquired incompetence on individuals without any regard for their potential, which is why 90% of the Empire's claims of being a meritocracy are either propaganda or delusional.

 

The hereditary aspect of slavery is an aggravating aspect of the system, not a mitigating one. Setting aside the moral repugnance of treating a sapient being as property under any circumstances (since I recall you don't care for using 'subjective' standards like morality in determining whether something is "justified"), it is certainly both inefficient and inconsistent with the tenants of a meritocracy to have that status imposed on an individual due to no fault of their own or consideration of their individual abilities/potential. Force-sensitive slaves may have recently been allowed to move out of the slave caste due to overwhelming necessity to replenish the Sith ranks, but they are the exception - the rule itself, the institution of hereditary slavery, is fundamentally broken.

I think I'd disagree. I certainly see your point but first I'd question whether Imperial's are simply prejudiced against aliens just because "they are alien". It just doesn’t make sense; it demands some kind of justification. And if anybody ever brought it under scrutiny it would fall apart. And it wouldn't leave any room for alien recognition and yet on more than one occasion Imperials and Sith alike have recognised ability within aliens and given them high ranking positions.

 

For example Darth Karrid, a member of the Dark Council no less.

 

I think we have to look at this in terms of history:

 

All alien species within the Sith Empire originate from some enslaved civilization who in the eyes of the Sith are inferior, their civilization has failed to be strong enough to resist the Sith Empire, and so it was crushed. These "aliens" therefore come from ‘weak’ cultures. Because of that the Empire deemed them being worthy only of being slaves.

 

(This is reinforced by the lack of hostility towards the Chiss, there is an element of underlying prejudice towards them, but all in all they seem far more respected amongst the Empire than other aliens species, because they were not enslaved, they willingly allied with the Empire)

 

And in part, that's justified, any attempt to induct them into Sith society at that point would have likely made the Empire weaker overall. Integration was really never an option and it still isn’t because at the very least the first and maybe even second generations just wouldn't be as competent as the Imperials, eventually they may come up to scratch but it would take time, and the Sith Empire doesn't seem very patient. Nor has Sith culture ever favoured assisting and uplifting the weak, they value inner strength, uplifting and empowering oneself.

 

And ultimately those slaves that work well and display ability, are elevated and can gain more valued positions, now more than ever considering the recent reforms and increased demand. On top of that the Sith Empire needs slaves, its built on the backs of slaves. So who better to enslave than alien species from different cultures, lacking in discipline and/or intelligence? It’s almost ideal.

 

So while yes we can chant "free the slaves, rights for aliens" it really wouldn't do the Empire much good. They'd have to spend generations integrating aliens into Sith society and making them competent and hard-working individuals, while experiencing a considerable decrease in slave labour, with children of slaves no longer becoming slaves themselves.

 

In such a sense it’s not broken, it actual works quite well, and changing it could have serious and negative repercussions. Which is likely why many Sith are so hostile towards alien equality.

 

That said it’s not entirely effective either, because it encourages both assumption and denial. Sith and Imperial’s alike simply assume that all aliens are inferior, with good reason, but they still assume, and when they are presented with aliens who evidently are not, they fall back on denial, not wanting to believe that any individual who is not a product of Imperial/Sith upbringing could possibly have talent worthy of the Empire. That is what Malgus wanted to change.

 

P.S. And yes, I am arguing that this is justified within the scope of meritocratic/Sith regime. Not in general of course. I’m sure at some point anyone playing an Imperial class has been forced to decide whether their character is xenophobic or not, and I usually choose the latter.

Edited by Beniboybling
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No they don't. No civilization could possibly require slaves when there's this much automation.
Good point, but on the other hand free manual labour is likely cheaper than the automated alternative. And considering that the Sith Empire are constantly conquering planets and deeming all the inhabitants of those planets inferior and not worthy of citizenship i.e. fit only to be slaves, slavery is almost inevitable - the other option being genocide.

 

A little off-topic, but have the Empire continued the practice of enslaving all alien cultures they come across i.e. during the Great Galactic War period? We've never actually visited any Imperial controlled populated worlds...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good point, but on the other hand free manual labour is likely cheaper than the automated alternative. And considering that the Sith Empire are constantly conquering planets and deeming all the inhabitants of those planets inferior and not worthy of citizenship i.e. fit only to be slaves, slavery is almost inevitable - the other option being genocide.

 

A little off-topic, but have the Empire continued the practice of enslaving all alien cultures they come across i.e. during the Great Galactic War period? We've never actually visited any Imperial controlled populated worlds...

But then the xenophobia thing is revealed to be stupid again, because the only reason they'd be enslaved is because they were conquered.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We can't possibly know whether slave labor is economically efficient or not in the Sith Empire's context because we're missing a great deal of relevant information. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

But then the xenophobia thing is revealed to be stupid again, because the only reason they'd be enslaved is because they were conquered.

Imperial apologist: if they weren't inferior, they wouldn't have been conquered in the first place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Imperial apologist: if they weren't inferior, they wouldn't have been conquered in the first place.

 

Common sense: Oh, you mean like the Empire was in the great hyperspace war before they fled their homes like vermin? Oh, I see.

Edited by Jandi
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If a certain individual is born to kick *** they will rise above all obstacles in their way. You can bet any alien to gain a position of prestige within the empire had to go through hell and back again, especially if they become Sith. I would definitely think twice before messing with an alien Sith Lord.

 

Maybe with the exception of alien who is the adopted child of a prominent Darth. In that case they probably would have it easier.

 

Also Malgus would have made a much better emperor over Vitiate. Malgus had progressive viewpoints and wanted to eliminate racism towards aliens, he also actually cared about the future of the empire unlike Vitiate who wants it destroyed with the republic and everything else.

Edited by DARTHOSIRUS
Link to comment
Share on other sites

But then the xenophobia thing is revealed to be stupid again, because the only reason they'd be enslaved is because they were conquered.
However as an empire expansionism is a faculty necessary for their functioning and continued prosperity. So once again we find ourselves deconstructing the entirety of the Empire in order to erase a particular trait. That said in reference to post #15 xenophobia is as ineffective as you might think.
We can't possibly know whether slave labor is economically efficient or not in the Sith Empire's context because we're missing a great deal of relevant information. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

 

Imperial apologist: if they weren't inferior, they wouldn't have been conquered in the first place.

The fact that slavery exists and constantly resurfaces in Star Wars lore for non-entertainment purposes and all in all is a profitable business suggests otherwise. I think if droid labour were more profitable, the Sith would be more than happy to simply exterminate these supposedly inferior species of whose presence is probably repulsive to them.

 

The SWTORE even talks of a need for slaves and reveals the Empire have been trading with the Hutt Cartel.

 

More like simply an Imperial, Sith don't apologize. That said it rings of truth, I doubt any alien civilization the Empire has encountered have been capable of matching the Empire's discipline and power.

If a certain individual is born to kick *** they will rise above all obstacles in their way. You can bet any alien to gain a position of prestige within the empire had to go through hell and back again, especially if they become Sith. I would definitely think twice before messing with an alien Sith Lord.

 

Maybe with the exception of alien who is the adopted child of a prominent Darth. In that case they probably would have it easier.

 

Also Malgus would have made a much better emperor over Vitiate. Malgus had progressive viewpoints and wanted to eliminate racism towards aliens, he also actually cared about the future of the empire unlike Vitiate who wants it destroyed with the republic and everything else.

I think one of the biggest problem with the Empire is that they lack patience, perhaps if they had made an attempt to colonist as opposed to enslave these alien civilizations they might profit from it in the long run. Something they would inevitably have to deal with if they ever gained control of the galaxy.

 

I don't know if Malgus would have made a better Emperor than Vitiate, Vititate seems far more intellectually capable and farseeing that Malgus, with the exception of being totally insane I think he does the better job...

Edited by Beniboybling
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If a certain individual is born to kick *** they will rise above all obstacles in their way.

 

Stop watching ****** inspirational movies, it's not how it works in real life. For every Genghis thre are a million great men and women who no one knew about because they died in a ditch somewhere due to random acts of violence, poverty, oppression, skin colour etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stop watching ****** inspirational movies, it's not how it works in real life. For every Genghis thre are a million great men and women who no one knew about because they died in a ditch somewhere due to random acts of violence, poverty, oppression, skin colour etc.
While I agree that you shouldn't mess with an alien Sith Lord, I also agree with this. As I said before the Empire suffers from assumption, by assuming that all aliens are inferior they don't go looking for talent. And all in all I expect if they put some effort into inducting aliens into Sith culture they'd in the long run probably produce fruitful results...

 

This has definitely all been food for thought, thanks everyone for joining in the discussion. :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

However as an empire expansionism is a faculty necessary for their functioning and continued prosperity. So once again we find ourselves deconstructing the entirety of the Empire in order to erase a particular trait. That said in reference to post #15 xenophobia is as ineffective as you might think.

Yes, because their government is poorly designed and requires deconstruction.

 

 

The fact that slavery exists and constantly resurfaces in Star Wars lore for non-entertainment purposes and all in all is a profitable business suggests otherwise. I think if droid labour were more profitable, the Sith would be more than happy to simply exterminate these supposedly inferior species of whom's presence is probably repulsive to them.

 

The SWTORE even talks of a need for slaves and reveals the Empire have been trading with the Hutt Cartel.

 

More like simply an Imperial, Sith don't apologize. That said it rings of truth, I doubt any alien civilization the Empire has encountered have been capable of matching the Empire's discipline and power.

Well, grabbing slaves is certainly easier if you have no moral compass, but that says nothing about long-term profitability or stability (though I will say it's disgraceful that the Republic has allowed the Hutt Cartel to survive for this long).

 

 

I don't know if Malgus would have made a better Emperor than Vitiate, Vititate seems far more intellectually capable and farseeing that Malgus, with the exception of being totally insane I think he does the better job...[/color]

Vitiate's only use for the Empire is as a tool for killing off the galaxy, so I really don't think you can call him good at much related to governance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...