tunewalker Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 So you still don't see my point? Think outside the box. Also, my argument is based on information provided by a canon source. Pellaeon sprang a trap, thus outmaneuvering Wedge in a series of skirmishes. That's my point. Yes the cannon source is the Essential Guide to Warfare, the author still takes liberties with word choice there. It doesn't change the events from him Palleon not having an extra SSD (thus twice the firepower) of his opponent, an advantage that is lacked in this situation. If we want we can talk about the fact that Wedge won back I believe 6 planets from Pelleaon before Pellaeon was able to spring this trap. (you only have 5 planets) in which that's 6 times Wedge outmaneuvered Pellaeon and that was with out adding an extra SSD to his team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Yes the cannon source is the Essential Guide to Warfare, the author still takes liberties with word choice there. It doesn't change the events from him Palleon not having an extra SSD (thus twice the firepower) of his opponent, an advantage that is lacked in this situation. If we want we can talk about the fact that Wedge won back I believe 6 planets from Pelleaon before Pellaeon was able to spring this trap. (you only have 5 planets) in which that's 6 times Wedge outmaneuvered Pellaeon and that was with out adding an extra SSD to his team. If only things were that simple. It's a real shame you ignore everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 If only things were that simple. It's a real shame you ignore everything else. what everything else? this is what the 2 fought with and how they fought there is nothing more there is nothing less. The word choice of a guide does not change how the events transpired or what Pellaeon needs to take an advantage over Wedge while Pellaeon is on the defensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 25, 2013 Author Share Posted October 25, 2013 I would just like to take a moment to finally put the Orinda Campaign between Wedge and Gilad to rest. Tune believes that Gilad needed reinforcements to defeat Wedge, whereas I say that Pellaeon outmaneuvered Wedge. So let's see what a third party has to say:I'd say that Pellaeon needed reinforcements to outmaneuver Wedge... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Or you know... like any competent military commander he set a trap for Antilles to fall into, which was successful, taking heavy damage to his own vessel in a one on one battle to take out Antilles' ship wouldn't do much good when he can't fix his own ship and Antilles can... Like I have said countless times, Antilles and Co. had every advantage they could want in the war, the Imperial Remnant was fighting a losing battle, moves like this are massive victories for the Remnant,battling an enemy flagship, heavily damaging it and not taking any damage to your own ship, those kinds of engagements were critical for the Empire. Take a long hard look at Imperial tactics throughout the war and you'll notice a pattern, traps in every battle, because the Imperials couldn't win a conventional war, the numbers were too heavily stacked against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Or you know... like any competent military commander he set a trap for Antilles to fall into, which was successful, taking heavy damage to his own vessel in a one on one battle to take out Antilles' ship wouldn't do much good when he can't fix his own ship and Antilles can... Like I have said countless times, Antilles and Co. had every advantage they could want in the war, the Imperial Remnant was fighting a losing battle, moves like this are massive victories for the Remnant,battling an enemy flagship, heavily damaging it and not taking any damage to your own ship, those kinds of engagements were critical for the Empire. Take a long hard look at Imperial tactics throughout the war and you'll notice a pattern, traps in every battle, because the Imperials couldn't win a conventional war, the numbers were too heavily stacked against them. At least someone gets it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 I'd say that Pellaeon needed reinforcements to outmaneuver Wedge... Then you haven't gotten the point either. At least Rayla gets it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 25, 2013 Author Share Posted October 25, 2013 Then you haven't gotten the point either. At least Rayla gets it.I just said exactly what Rayla said, Gilad couldn't spring the trap without the additional forces could he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 I just said exactly what Rayla said, Gilad couldn't spring the trap without the additional forces could he? And yet that was the trap.... he pulled him out into the line of fire without any help, it was a trap which Antilles fell for, hence both of our points. Antilles fell for Pallaeon's trap, this is our point. Tune has been arguing that Pallaeon can't beat Antilles without numbers, yet the example he uses is completely off ball, he also entirely left out the larger situation Pallaeon was in. This is the point me and Aurbere have been making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 25, 2013 Author Share Posted October 25, 2013 And yet that was the trap.... he pulled him out into the line of fire without any help, it was a trap which Antilles fell for, hence both of our points. Antilles fell for Pallaeon's trap, this is our point. Tune has been arguing that Pallaeon can't beat Antilles without numbers, yet the example he uses is completely off ball, he also entirely left out the larger situation Pallaeon was in. This is the point me and Aurbere have been making.*shrug* falling for traps seems a matter of intel than tactical ability. Ackbar fell into a trap, it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 (edited) That isn't the point, the crux of Tune's argument over Pallaeon vs Antilles is that Pallaeon was being forced back by Antilles in an active battle hence 'mildly superior to Gilad', yet it has been made clear in the canon that this was merely a trap set by Pallaeon to lure Antilles and his flagship out, so they could trap it and beat it. Edited October 26, 2013 by LadyKulvax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 That isn't the point, the crux of Tune's argument over Pallaeon vs Antilles is that Pallaeon was being forced back by Antilles in an active battle hence 'mildly superior to Gilad', yet it has been made clear in the canon that this was merely a trap set by Pallaeon to lure Antilles and his flagship out, so they could trap it and beat it. At the same time I don't think Pellaeon ever intended to lose those 6 planets. Last I checked he had wanted to keep them but realized he couldn't and was forced out of them by Wedge. Wedge wasn't receiving back up and Wedge was winning those fights with what he had. All in all ship to ship when they have equal numbers and equal intel they are around equal. When intel fools one side or the other the person who does the fooling is the one that has the advantage. Wedge has fooled your intelligence officer before, both Pellaeon and Wedge have fooled each other before, and My own intelligence agency (hapan intelligence backed by all kinds of infiltration, special operations and intelligence officers) help make sure my team isn't fooled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 26, 2013 Author Share Posted October 26, 2013 Well altogether they seem fairly equal, so its a minor point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Well altogether they seem fairly equal, so its a minor point. Funny thing is all of this was technically already covered in the debate in pretty good length. Beni are you going to read through all the posts and call it soon? I have a feeling at this rate we will be done with the sith duelist list before this is called. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted November 16, 2013 Author Share Posted November 16, 2013 I was hoping to wait for more people to appear, but it doesn't seem fair to let this languish any longer. So I'll be making an announcement later today. Again apologies for the wait, but I got busy and no one seemed around and time flies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted November 16, 2013 Author Share Posted November 16, 2013 Please be aware that the scenario is merely a visual representation of the score and had no bearing on the final outcome. This is just one of many scenarios that could have occurred. The factions engaged in a titanic struggle across multiple fronts with Krayt’s Vision scoring an early victory against the Alliance of Worlds after a supposed failed invasion on the shipyards of Foerost, which ended with the Alliance fleeing in hasty retreat. What followed was a series of indecisive and bloody engagements across the Core Worlds, yet significant ground was made for Krayt’s empire when elite commando squads from the 501st successfully infiltrated and destroyed a series of planetary shield generators, exposing them to orbital bombardment and ultimately fell to superior firepower. However the victory was short lived, for the Battle at Foerost had in fact been a façade for a infiltration mission, with the Alliance using the confusion and fallout to smuggle special forces onto the planet below under the assistance of the feared and deadly assassin, IG-88. The damage they dealt was considerable, the shipyards of Foerost were destroyed in a fiery inferno, cargo vessels vanished and chaos erupted across supply routes after probots were hacked and turned against their makers, and Emperor Krayt soon found himself forced to recall troops from the frontlines to deal with civil unrest, sabotage and terrorism caused by special forces who successfully infiltrated the Deep Core. Infuriated at this turn of events which was slowly sapping at the strength of the empire and turning the tide of the war against them Krayt resorted to extreme measures, unleashing a genetically engineered bioweapon known as the Krytos Virus at the behest of his personal intelligence officer, Ysanne Isard. The virus wrought havoc on the Alliance, spreading like wild fire across their alien populations. Deeply perturbed by the growing number of casualties among her people Supreme Chancellor Leia Organa tasked her allies, the Hapes Consortium, with providing aid who dedicated their entire royal guard to distributing medicine and tending to the weak. However the problem soon grew even worse as the virus began to infect military personnel, lowering morale and dealing significant damage to their numbers. Yet while the strength of their armies dwindled the Alliance managed to retain naval superiority thanks to the loss of the enemies shipyards and the support of the Hapes Consortium fleets, what’s more Krayt’s Vision soon found their efforts on the ground thwarted when their War Droids, who unknown to them had been hacked and converted into sleeper agents by IG-88, turned on them and sowed confusion and chaos amongst their ranks. Saddled with these disadvantages, Krayt’s military progress was halted and they were steadily pushed back before losing Foerost, sealing them in the Deep Core. The Alliance then forced them on the defensive, using the secret lanes acquired by Leia to strike at their own planets on multiple fronts. With Krayt’s forces spread thin and their interdiction fleets destroyed the Alliance managed to push through into Byss where Gilad amassed a defensive fleet. Unable to break their defences the Skywalker twins and a series of other strike teams invaded the surface and made their way to the Emperor’s throne room. Krayt was prepared and had Darth Talon at his side but the Skywalker’s bolstered by battle meld proved too powerful even for Krayt’s dark transfer to overcome and were defeated. The Alliance of Worlds is victorious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted November 16, 2013 Author Share Posted November 16, 2013 IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT: THIS DEBATE IS CLOSED Victor: The Alliance of Worlds The Alliance of World: 58 Krayt's Vision: 56 The next matchup will premiere soon. Stay tuned Thanks for debating! That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 I understand your reluctance to call it immediately... Close one, well done all. Look forward to our face off Tune! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canino Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 My lord... that is close! Good job all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Obviously I disagree, but it was a very close one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT: THIS DEBATE IS CLOSED Victor: The Alliance of Worlds The Alliance of World: 58 Krayt's Vision: 56 The next matchup will premiere soon. Stay tuned Thanks for debating! That is all. Closest match ever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted November 16, 2013 Author Share Posted November 16, 2013 Closest match ever?Probably lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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