So Group Finder was one of the most widely hailed features to be implemented in the game when it finally rolled out.

The problem is, it's left the game somewhat broken for new players who try to enjoy its story as intended.

Why? Because it explicitly rewards players for skipping the story introductions to the flashpoints in question -- those introductory cutscenes in which each faction's leader (Satele Shan/Darth Malgus) would set up their premise, and provide the narrative impetus for players to want to run them in the first place. So yeah, the group-finder, the way it's set up now, basically hurls players into these scenarios without so much as a clue as to the what they're doing there, how they got there, and why they should care.

This is especially galling coming from a developer that prides itself on having story as its fourth-pillar.

So my suggestion is to make it so the only way players can unlock flashpoints in group finder is by running them the traditional way at least once per character. In other words, finding a group via general chat, then going down to the holoterminals in the fleets' lower decks to get the respective FP sit-reps from the faction leaders, the way we used to. And the great thing is, not only would this fix the aforementioned problems, players would also get the added benefit of racking up on the social points which are awarded for going about things in this manner.

D7 and the flashpoints dealing with Revan (and possibly others) used to require you to do prerequisite quests before being able to enter the instance. This created a lot of problems with making sure everyone was on the correct track and had everything they needed. The prerequisites were removed, and for good reason. Those were even the good stories for flashpoints, not the filler stories of flashpoints like Hammer Station. It made forming groups a pain and were just unnecessary.

Everything you described above details the kind of experience I personally would rather have with SWTOR, being a stickler for story myself. I wish they would re-integrate those pre-requisites for running Flashpoints into the game, possibly in the form of an optional toggle for players who wish to experience the game's content in continuity.

If people want to know the story the quests are still there. And with the advent of the group finder how are those players going to even find a group to do their initial run if everyone else is in group finder. That's like trying to make it a law that virgins can only have sex with virgins. Great, but where are we going to find enough virgins.

You're missing the point, I think. Yes, the story quests are still there to be run in the traditional manner if one so chooses, but the issue is that if you're a new player there is no way for you to even know of this choice unless informed of such by, say, a veteran of the game with an odd-ball penchant for running Flashpoints in the traditional manner (in other words, me).

How could you? I mean, the game not only currently introduces Flashpoints via group finder, it even goes out of its way to incentivize the player to run them through it by offering commendations as rewards.

And I think your last concern about these players not finding a group to do their initial run because everyone else is on group-finder is misplaced, as a perfunctory glance of general chat will attest.

Nawh, you seem to be forcing players into extra effort. Not cool. They can always do it in the traditional way to get extra xp and background on the story! It gets boring when you do it on your 2nd character on that faction.

I loved doing it the traditional way on the start, first two weeks in TOR were magical. However it would be an effort now...

Just like in real life - I recently got a car and I can't imagine taking a walk down the village to the store.

Nawh, you seem to be forcing players into extra effort. Not cool. They can always do it in the traditional way to get extra xp and background on the story! It gets boring when you do it on your 2nd character on that faction.

 

I loved doing it the traditional way on the start, first two weeks in TOR were magical. However it would be an effort now...

 

Just like in real life - I recently got a car and I can't imagine taking a walk down the village to the store.

Come on, it's just the one time per character. How much of an effort is that, really?

Remember you're coming at this from the perspective of someone who already ran them the traditional way multiple times. You know their story inside and out.

The same joy you took from doing it the traditional way before the advent of group finder should not be curtailed for new players.

They can always do it on their own. there are plenty of quest givers around the fleet!

Choice is GOOD.

That's how I did Revan quest chains with my alts. Watched convos and then queued up. The other ones I wasn't interested in anymore. Mind you, it's those time sinks which are turning players away from TOR.

Really? That's your problem with group finder?

Mine are:

• DPS that queue as tanks
  
• DPS that queue as healers
  
• Too many people queueing while under-geared for the content
  
• Too many people queueing that haven't the first clue about how to be successful or behave in a group
  

There are good technical solutions for the first 3:

• Put in a spec check that only lets people queue for a role if they have enough points in the skill tree for that role at their current level. Level 50+ = topmost skill in the desired role's tree. Less than level 50 = something less.
  
• Put in a gear check that compares the person's internal gear level with the recommended gear level for the instance. They're publishing recommended gear levels now and it's obviously data available on the gear itself. Math isn't hard.
  
• Put in another gear check that ensures gear is statted right for the role - incorrect stats could mean you don't get to queue (Defense on Cunning gear, anyone?)
  

Might even be able to help with part of the last one too:

• Change the loot roll interface to have buttons for Need, Companion, Greed, and Disassemble:
  
• Need means it binds on pickup (but can be traded to others in the same group for 1 hour) and you can only equip it on your character; not on a companion. It also renders the cash sale value of the item to 0 credits. Button is only available if it's appropriate gear for your class and the role you entered the instance as.
  
• Companion means it binds on pickup (but can be traded as above) and you can equip it on yourself or any pet. Button is only available if you have a companion for which the gear is appropriate.
  
• Greed and Disassemble work as they do now.
  
• Priority is Need > Companion > (Greed = Disassemble)
  

Come on, it's just the one time per character. How much of an effort is that, really?

 

Remember you're coming at this from the perspective of someone who already ran them the traditional way multiple times. You know their story inside and out.

 

The same joy you took from doing it the traditional way before the advent of group finder should not be curtailed for new players.

D7 and the flashpoints dealing with Revan (and possibly others) used to require you to do prerequisite quests before being able to enter the instance. This created a lot of problems with making sure everyone was on the correct track and had everything they needed. The prerequisites were removed, and for good reason. Those were even the good stories for flashpoints, not the filler stories of flashpoints like Hammer Station. It made forming groups a pain and were just unnecessary. If people want to know the story the quests are still there.

And with the advent of the group finder how are those players going to even find a group to do their initial run if everyone else is in group finder. That's like trying to make it a law that virgins can only have sex with virgins. Great, but where are we going to find enough virgins.

D7 and the flashpoints dealing with Revan (and possibly others) used to require you to do prerequisite quests before being able to enter the instance. This created a lot of problems with making sure everyone was on the correct track and had everything they needed. The prerequisites were removed, and for good reason. Those were even the good stories for flashpoints, not the filler stories of flashpoints like Hammer Station. It made forming groups a pain and were just unnecessary.

Everything you described above details the kind of experience I personally would rather have with SWTOR, being a stickler for story myself. I wish they would re-integrate those pre-requisites for running Flashpoints into the game, possibly in the form of an optional toggle for players who wish to experience the game's content in continuity.

If people want to know the story the quests are still there. And with the advent of the group finder how are those players going to even find a group to do their initial run if everyone else is in group finder. That's like trying to make it a law that virgins can only have sex with virgins. Great, but where are we going to find enough virgins.

You're missing the point, I think. Yes, the story quests are still there to be run in the traditional manner if one so chooses, but the issue is that if you're a new player there is no way for you to even know of this choice unless informed of such by, say, a veteran of the game with an odd-ball penchant for running Flashpoints in the traditional manner (in other words, me).

How could he? I mean, the game not only currently introduces Flashpoints via group finder, it even goes out of its way to incentivize the player to run them through it by offering commendations as rewards.

And I think your last concern about these players not finding a group to do their initial run because everyone else is on group-finder is misplaced, as a perfunctory glance of general chat will attest.

D7 and the flashpoints dealing with Revan (and possibly others) used to require you to do prerequisite quests before being able to enter the instance. This created a lot of problems with making sure everyone was on the correct track and had everything they needed. The prerequisites were removed, and for good reason. Those were even the good stories for flashpoints, not the filler stories of flashpoints like Hammer Station. It made forming groups a pain and were just unnecessary. If people want to know the story the quests are still there.

 

And with the advent of the group finder how are those players going to even find a group to do their initial run if everyone else is in group finder. That's like trying to make it a law that virgins can only have sex with virgins. Great, but where are we going to find enough virgins.

I did all those flashpoints without the pre-req quests... You needed them before the group finder.

Everything you described above details the kind of experience I personally would rather have with SWTOR, being a stickler for story myself. I wish they would re-integrate those pre-requisites for running Flashpoints into the game, possibly in the form of an optional toggle for players who wish to experience the game's content in continuity.

 

 

You're missing the point, I think. Yes, the story quests are still there to be run in the traditional manner if one so chooses, but the issue is that if you're a new player there is no way for you to even know of this choice unless informed of such by, say, a veteran of the game with an odd-ball penchant for running Flashpoints in the traditional manner (in other words, me).

 

How could he? I mean, the game not only currently introduces Flashpoints via group finder, it even goes out of its way to incentivize the player to run them through it by offering commendations as rewards.

 

And I think your last concern about these players not finding a group to do their initial run because everyone else is on group-finder is misplaced, as a perfunctory glance of general chat will attest.

Are there not still quest givers all around the fleet and across the planets that point you towards the quest chains for all of these flashpoints? If players care about the story then they should be talking to these droids as they find them. I still see a lot of these droids standing next to fleet shuttles across the different planets.

I did all those flashpoints without the pre-req quests... You needed them before the group finder.

You will have to elaborate on your point, because the way I'm interpreting what you've said you have appeared to miss mine. Those flashpoints used to require prerequisite quests before you could even enter the instance, which is pretty much what the OP is asking to be brought back. I then said that the requirements were removed by BioWare for good reason, because they caused more problems than they were worth

Are there not still quest givers all around the fleet and across the planets that point you towards the quest chains for all of these flashpoints? If players care about the story then they should be talking to these droids as they find them. I still see a lot of these droids standing next to fleet shuttles across the different planets.

The quest-givers are still there, but I wouldn't say they point you to the flashpoints. Again, since the game currently directs players to run the flashpoints through group finder, there is no reason for someone who's new to think there is an alternative way of doing so.

In fact, the droids are simply one of a total of three game systems which have been made redundant by the introduction of group finder; the other two being the fleet shuttles you mentioned, and the holoterminals in the lower decks.

I've never done a flashpoint outside of the group finder, and there are those I've helped who would never ever go through that effort.

That's not to say I disagree with you that it's a problem, many times I don't understand what we're doing until we've finished. But I'd rather see it fixed through an opening cutscene (maybe a character with a portable holoprojector) - and skippable with space bar if desired.

Once per character isn't outrageous, but consider this: I want to do FPS to level/gear up in the lulls between stories. I've experienced the story content already. I don't even do them anymore because there's always someone who won't space-bar through it, which means what should take ~20 minutes of my time will now take double the time. As a casual player with little time to fit in to actually playing SWTOR, this is pretty irritating because I'm sitting around for half an hour waiting on other people. What I'd LIKE is an option button for people who want to skip all the yakking off the bat: I'm all for the story and the experience of the content, it's a huge draw to the game as opposed to other MMOs, I also don't need to see it six times when I just want some fancy new pants.

Also the "Roll for Companion" option button and Need=BoP is a good idea.

I've never done a flashpoint outside of the group finder, and there are those I've helped who would never ever go through that effort.

Exactly, this proves my point. Probably because you only started playing the game after 1.3, correct?

Once per character isn't outrageous, but consider this: I want to do FPS to level/gear up in the lulls between stories. I've experienced the story content already. I don't even do them anymore because there's always someone who won't space-bar through it, which means what should take ~20 minutes of my time will now take double the time. As a casual player with little time to fit in to actually playing SWTOR, this is pretty irritating because I'm sitting around for half an hour waiting on other people. What I'd LIKE is an option button for people who want to skip all the yakking off the bat: I'm all for the story and the experience of the content, it's a huge draw to the game as opposed to other MMOs, I also don't need to see it six times when I just want some fancy new pants.

 

Also the "Roll for Companion" option button and Need=BoP is a good idea.

I think the answer for BioWare here lies in making the existing content in Flashpoints more dynamic and unpredictable (through the addition of an interrupt mechanism a la the Mass Effect Paragon/Renegade system, for instance) as opposed to simply buckling to the pressure and provide us with a tool that allows us to skip the content.

It's not a bad idea, but it would ultimately have the effect of making Group Finder queues even longer during the leveling process because new players often are too overwhelmed to track down and accomplish every last little task and mission.

If you say, "Hey, you need to go all the way back to Fleet and talk to Satele Shan, then you can queue for this Flashpoint" ... most new players will just go "OK I might do that eventually" and keep soloing.

But I do agree, some awesome flavor is lost if you just go straight into Group Finder — the first time I ran Taral V I had literally no f-ing clue what was going on, why Yoda was talking to me, or why I was being harassed by an annoying scientist about a computer.

I think a better solution, if you're concerned about story context, is to replace the "Flashpoint Couriers" on planets with holoterminals that provide a holo-version of the cutscene that introduces the flashpoint. It isn't perfect, true, but it would allow people to get the basic idea without breaking their solo play.

I know a lot of players are resistant to going back to Fleet in the middle of a planet because it takes forever to get back to where you were. Most are not resistant to watching story scenes / dialogues, though.

It's not a bad idea, but it would ultimately have the effect of making Group Finder queues even longer during the leveling process because new players often are too overwhelmed to track down and accomplish every last little task and mission.

 

If you say, "Hey, you need to go all the way back to Fleet and talk to Satele Shan, then you can queue for this Flashpoint" ... most new players will just go "OK I might do that eventually" and keep soloing.

 

But I do agree, some awesome flavor is lost if you just go straight into Group Finder — the first time I ran Taral V I had literally no f-ing clue what was going on, why Yoda was talking to me, or why I was being harassed by an annoying scientist about a computer.

 

I think a better solution, if you're concerned about story context, is to replace the "Flashpoint Couriers" on planets with holoterminals that provide a holo-version of the cutscene that introduces the flashpoint. It isn't perfect, true, but it would allow people to get the basic idea without breaking their solo play.

 

I know a lot of players are resistant to going back to Fleet in the middle of a planet because it takes forever to get back to where you were. Most are not resistant to watching story scenes / dialogues, though.

But that's the way it used to be, prior to the group finder's inclusion. Players would run into an NPC droid as they were questing on a planet, who would provide them with the option to shuttle directly to the fleet if they so chose. From there, players would then look for other players to group up with, after which they would gather at the holoterminals downstairs to receive their sit-rep from Satele Shan or Darth Malgus.

I never thought it was a perfectly conceived system, but I didn't come up with it, and it's certainly better than skipping the content altogether, which is what the group finder leads one into doing.

That said, I love your holoterminals idea.

So Group Finder was one of the most widely hailed features to be implemented in the game when it finally rolled out.

The problem is, it's left the game somewhat broken for new players who try to enjoy its story as intended.

 

Why? Because it explicitly rewards players for skipping the story introductions to the flashpoints in question -- those introductory cutscenes in which each faction's leader (Satele Shan/Darth Malgus) would set up their premise, and provide the narrative impetus for players to want to run them in the first place. So yeah, the group-finder, the way it's set up now, basically hurls players into these scenarios without so much as a clue as to the what they're doing there, how they got there, and why they should care.

 

This is especially galling coming from a developer that prides itself on having story as its fourth-pillar.

 

So my suggestion is to make it so the only way players can unlock flashpoints in group finder is by running them the traditional way at least once per character. In other words, finding a group via general chat, then going down to the holoterminals in the fleets' lower decks to get the respective FP sit-reps from the faction leaders, the way we used to. And the great thing is, not only would this fix the aforementioned problems, players would also get the added benefit of racking up on the social points which are awarded for going about things in this manner.

 

Everything you described above details the kind of experience I personally would rather have with SWTOR, being a stickler for story myself. I wish they would re-integrate those pre-requisites for running Flashpoints into the game, possibly in the form of an optional toggle for players who wish to experience the game's content in continuity.

 

You're missing the point, I think. Yes, the story quests are still there to be run in the traditional manner if one so chooses, but the issue is that if you're a new player there is no way for you to even know of this choice unless informed of such by, say, a veteran of the game with an odd-ball penchant for running Flashpoints in the traditional manner (in other words, me).

 

How could you? I mean, the game not only currently introduces Flashpoints via group finder, it even goes out of its way to incentivize the player to run them through it by offering commendations as rewards.

 

And I think your last concern about these players not finding a group to do their initial run because everyone else is on group-finder is misplaced, as a perfunctory glance of general chat will attest.

that's a problem with players not group finder.

One time per character wouldn't really fix the issues you're concerned about.

Honestly I think what they should do is add a new mode (I would say call it story but since story is already used for something it shouldn't be I guess call it social mode?)

- Social Story Mode

- Story Mode

- Social Hard Mode

- Hard Mode

Alternately they could go back to Story mode being called Normal like it was at launch and go with:

- Story Normal Mode

- Normal Mode

- Story Hard Mode

- Hard Mode

If you queue for one of the social modes then the space bar to skip conversations is disabled and you have to do the introduction and closing conversations. This would have some pros and cons about the fact that it would split the queue populations, it would limit the rage of people arguing for or against space bar but increase the queue time to actually get into the instances.

Since there are achievements for killing bosses in each mode, this would essentially add the 1 time requirement, but make it an optional achievement requirement rather than a forced requirement.

that's a problem with players not group finder.

Oh, really? Do tell.

Oh, really? Do tell.

It's the players who are skipping the dialogue, group finder just finds you a group, it is the people in the group who don't want to sit through the dialogue (admittedly because they've done the FP before) and even if you alter the mechanics of the FP or add a tick box for people who want to skip dialogue(to group finder), it's the people who are going to want to speed things up.

Basically it's people who are messing things up, and if you alter things they will just find a new creative way to mess it up for you (not that I'm against your idea, just I'm aware of the nature of the problem).

It's the players who are skipping the dialogue, group finder just finds you a group, it is the people in the group who don't want to sit through the dialogue (admittedly because they've done the FP before) and even if you alter the mechanics of the FP or add a tick box for people who want to skip dialogue(to group finder), it's the people who are going to want to speed things up.

 

Basically it's people who are messing things up, and if you alter things they will just find a new creative way to mess it up for you (not that I'm against your idea, just I'm aware of the nature of the problem).

This is not what I'm referring to. Please re-read the original post.

I'm assuming the new players are questing or waiting for a PvP queue on the fleet. Then they see the droid with a quest icon and its title is "Flashpoint Courier". The droid tells them about immediate assistance needed. They travel to where the droid tells them to go and they speak to Satele/Malgus.

Even with the group finder, Bioware still places those "intro droids" everywhere. It's up to the player to acknowledge them, and go to where the droid tells them to go before queuing for the FP. If they ignore it, it's on them. I certainly don't expect Bioware to force a Malgus/Satele cutscene the second the group is formed. That would require transporting you directly outside the FP. The whole point is being able to bring you into the instance, and when you're done, transport you directly outside it or back to where you were.