Basically created just because an argument in another thread started to go so badly offtopic that I felt it needed an actual topic of its own. Slightly related to Cashogy_reborn's Why is being good at PvP viewed with such a negative connotation? -topic.

We have all seen this, in some form. Maybe it was someone ranting at someone in a warzone because of a mistake he/she did, maybe it was someone just screaming "you are all noobs!!!" when things didn't go as he planned, or maybe it was someone telling you to "get a life" in the forums. I think there's no group in pvp who wouldn't get bashed sometimes, and it's really no wonder that many people of the pve community view pvp players as rude, arrogant people with no manners. Because, let's be honest, it does sometimes look like that.

I think we can all agree that this is not something that will completely go away. Pvp can be very frustrating, and it can even make people very angry. It's just humane that people can't always control their emotions. Saying that people who can't keep their emotions in check shouldn't pvp would at least exclude short-tempered and/or competitive players from pvp altogether. Maybe even everyone who is passionate about pvp.

However, I'm pretty sure this is something most of the people don't enjoy. People can "take it", at least some amount of it, but would be happier if it didn't exist, or really don't care if it exists or not. Maybe some slight percent do actually enjoy it, and that's okay with me. But my basic logics tell me, that they should be a minority. Not many people enjoy being ranted or yelled at, or bullied, or ridiculed, or belittled.

I'd like to ask for the pvp community's opinions on questions like what kind of abuse/harassment should be tolerated and what amount of abuse/harassment should be tolerated - or should it all just be tolerated, because it's "part of the game"? And if some aspect and/or amount of abuse and/or harassment shouldn't be tolerated, what could we do to try to make sure we don't have to tolerate it?

EDIT:// Grabbed a couple of links other people have posted on other threads that are somehow related to the topic:

Life is life. As an example, I was in an Arena match on my dps operative. Our opponents had 2 healers, we had none. So I knew it was gonna be iffy. Just as I expected my teammates did not focus fire or cc so we lost. Second round. Same thing, I was the second one to go down so it was 4 vs 2 and the two were attacking different targets.

I decided to just leave the game and continue leveling instead of waiting. One of my teammates pst me calling me a noob and ragequiter and so on. Tried to explain but you just can't communicate with some ppl.

Best advice is just to not even try to explain and ignore. Of course if you're threatened or w/e do the report, but from what I have seen from this and other games, it really does no good.

PVP makes temper flare. That's just the way it is. If it didn't, we wouldn't play it

Abuse should not be tolerated, but I understand where it comes from. I hope people speak up when it happens. Always speak up!

I decided to just leave the game and continue leveling instead of waiting. One of my teammates pst me calling me a noob and ragequiter and so on. Tried to explain but you just can't communicate with some ppl.

I think this is a good example of the kind of "heat of the moment, temperaments flaming"-behaviour. It's easily said and fast forgotten, and then we move on. But reading through the Cashogy's thread gave me the impression that there are some problems deeper than just that heat of the moment that's easily forgotten. There were many comments that basically said, that the dedicated pvp players brought their abuse to themselves. This is not "the heat of the moment" anymore. There's a great load of bitterness in it. And, sadly, these people aren't only ones who carry a sort of negativity with them. Some "dedicated" players seem to carry the same load of bitterness towards "bads", casuals, or both.

Anyway, to continue the conversation between me and ZooMzy (I'm hoping you find your way here on your own):

I think nothing good would come argueing if the "bads", the "casuals" or the "dedicated" are the original source of this conflict. Maybe some "bads" are just stubborn and unwilling to learn, as you say. Maybe they make the other "bads" look bad (and by this I mean the players who are just new to pvp and still willing to learn), and some dedicated players (like you) and maybe even some casuals feel they are right to rage at all the bads.

Some of these "bads" who are just new players are very mature and have great self-esteem, and they understand that not everyone in the top skill level is like the person ranting right now. Some people start carrying bitterness towards the "dedicated" - quite the same way you seem to carry bitterness towards the bads (or the bads and the casuals, depending on what post of yours person is reading). And then they, quite like you, start expressing this bitterness towards all the dedicated. Maybe for reasons like "This is how people do in pvp, and I had to suffer from this abuse. There's no reason the dedicated who abused me shouldn't suffer from it, too". This may even lead to the problem many people are experiencing in pug warzones: the pugs just couldn't care less what the more experienced players have to say, because they view the more experienced players as someone arrogant and rude.

Unfortunately, we won't be able to just "fix the cause". Because, from all these things, the skills and knowledge of the "bads" is the hardest thing to influence. Not because they won't learn, but because every new player starts as "bad". And there will always be new players. While we try to pass our knowledge to the people who aren't that good in the game, we could always at the same time try to at least rant them a little less. And, imo, this would include only ranting because of the "heat of the moment", not because you think the bads deserve it and use your ranting as a weapon. If we intentionally vent off our anger and frustration to the bads, they are more likely come up with the idea that the more experienced players are just arrogant jerks or schoolyard bullies with computers, even though the person ranting would probably be a nice guy when he's not so pissed off.

The next step, of course, would have to be taken by the "bads". They should try to understand, that the dedicated are also just people, just like the bads. And people get frustrated and angry, and when they are frustrated and angry, they aren't always nice to each other. The less "I'm just venting off my frustration but I don't mind if you learn something from this" type of speech they get, more likely they are to think that the dedicated are just frustrated, not actually mean on purpose because they have emotional problems irl or something.

Unfortunately, with the wrong coctail, someone will vent off their frustration on the bads, and the bads - who well become medicore or casuals or maybe dedicated later - think that the dedicated are all mean and full of themselves. Which, of course, bursts out as attacks towards the dedicated. And we both agree that this is something very sad.

It's not something easily changed, either. And, tbh, if you think constantly and intentionally raging to the bads is worth the bad name you are giving to all the dedicated (or even to all the pvp players in the eyes of the other players), then I guess you'll just keep up your work.

"Oh, I see. What we got here is a crusader."

- King

"Oh, I see. What we got here is a crusader."

 

- King

Guilty as charged. ^^

I had my annual eye-opening from Cashogy's thread. I thought all raging pvp people did was the "better" pvpers raging at the people who are worse at it, but it seems that everyone is raging at each other instead. And I have to say that I feel sorry, not only for the "bads" who got raged, but for dedicated people who get raged, too. Some of them probably haven't done anything to deserve it.

Probably overestimating the community when I'm thinking something could be done about it, though. But it doesn't hurt to try.

Guilty as charged. ^^

I had my annual eye-opening from Cashogy's thread. I thought all raging pvp people did was the "better" pvpers raging at the people who are worse at it, but it seems that everyone is raging at each other instead. And I have to say that I feel sorry, not only for the "bads" who got raged, but for dedicated people who get raged, too. Some of them probably haven't done anything to deserve it.

 

Probably overestimating the community when I'm thinking something could be done about it, though. But it doesn't hurt to try.

I wouldn't consider it any indictment of this particular game's community though. Rather, it would be one for humankind.

I wouldn't consider it any indictment of this particular game's community though. Rather, it would be one for humankind.

Probably true, though I have heard that some gaming communities are considered to be nicer, or at least less negatively charged, than others. I don't have much experience on MMOs, so it's not really my place to say if there truly are differences, or if it's just a rumor.

This behavior is not limited to pvp, pve, swtor or even videogames. Online anonymity lets people unleash their mean sides with few, if any, repercussions. Grow a thicker skin and ignore the BS. Or just don't even think of the other players as people, just NPCs with varying AI personalities.

Basically this.

If you want to continue the argument, fine. But let me go ahead and post my last response in the other thread here:

Indeed, it is very unfortunate.

 

But it's not unjustified, just because people can easily see the negative backlash dedicated players dish out in response to the unseen injustice selfish casuals and bads do onto them.

 

Just remember though that dedicated are in response to the selfish casuals and bads. You want to fix the problem, you look at the cause, not the effect.

 

Which, like I have been in here doing, is my big picture. Everyone's ignorant morality points to fixing the effect, and you aren't going to fix the problem by attacking the people voicing complaints to something else. For the people ranting about nothing, so be it.

 

But if this truly was a system where people only complain about aspects that aren't that bad, then there wouldn't be such a strong presence of complainers. So of course I advocate complaining, as the only way you're going to show people the problem is by making it known.

To staple it to your point, the argument of abuse and harassment is one, and the aspect of mental conditioning is another. PvP, by its very foundation, is a competitively based game mode where no matter how casual you make it, there will always be a major presence of competition. Meaning that if you want people to be more respectful to each other, you make sure everyone is on even ground and knows the type of game that is being played.

So while I see harassment and clear attacks on others that do no good a problem, I have no qualms with other players being smacked in the face with a little harsh reality. Sorry if you don't like that, but I'd rather see the player quality improve than gain respect from a bunch of people I will never see or meet in person.

To staple it to your point, the argument of abuse and harassment is one, and the aspect of mental conditioning is another. PvP, by its very foundation, is a competitively based game mode where no matter how casual you make it, there will always be a major presence of competition. Meaning that if you want people to be more respectful to each other, you make sure everyone is on even ground and knows the type of game that is being played.

 

So while I see harassment and clear attacks on others that do no good a problem, I have no qualms with other players being smacked in the face with a little harsh reality. Sorry if you don't like that, but I'd rather see the player quality improve than gain respect from a bunch of people I will never see or meet in person.

I understand your point. To be honest, the biggest problem I have with your decribed behaviour is not the fact that you sometimes rage at "bads", but the fact that you have admitted that your "secondary goal" - meaning your own enjoyment from raging to another person - is at least as important as your "primary goal". I haven't noticed this to be the "harsh reality" on Red Eclipse at least. People sometimes treat each other in a disrespectful way, but it seems to be because of "the heat of the moment" - and even those aren't that common. But I don't know, maybe that's common in your server?

lol no one has ever said anything negative to me in PVP ever. Weird.

And if they did /ignore

this is the internet and thats the way it is.

the one talking the most smack is usually the worst player.

Well take this as worth what you paid for it... but I've found recently, for me anyway, that I have this magic ability to reduce the ranting in warzones.

Just type some words at the beginning to set a friendlier tone. If things start going bad, make a positive comment before the ranter gets her rant on. If you do something stupid, type "crap, I did [something stupid], so sry". People are generally forgiving of mistake if they know you know. That sounds all rainbows and kittens I know, like one of those "be the change you want" kind of messages ... but it sure seems to work. Been in a fair number of games lately where I tried to adopt that approach. I don't remember a single harsh comment back about it. I do remember a few random comments like, "It's great doing WZs with you, you are always so up beat."

So, yeah, you want a friendlier PvP community? Start being friendlier. Which is not the same thing as just passively "not ranting".

Now I'm going to go fume because my team is playing deathmatch instead of huttball...

This behavior is not limited to pvp, pve, swtor or even videogames. Online anonymity lets people unleash their mean sides with few, if any, repercussions. Grow a thicker skin and ignore the BS. Or just don't even think of the other players as people, just NPCs with varying AI personalities.

seriously, as it is I am only a 16 year old player yet I am treated like garbage in this game sometimes, some stuff I will admit is my fault (ranked, got pulled and pounced on, stunned and dpsed in less than 4 seconds, screwed it up for my team, am ashamed about it) , other times its nonsense (ever have a group for athiss kick you because at low levels they expected you to be best tank ever and then later in fleet chat bomb you saying that even after they kicked you and got a replacement that you screwed it up so much they could not kill the boss! How is it my fault that even when I am not there they can't kill it!). Anyway though, I am treated like a criminal in this game sometimes ( I do report these morons, one thing to criticize constructively, another thing to just use **** again and again while talking about me and later trashing me to the fleet

Anyway point is don't let it get to you, I just want to enjoy the game and have fun and some people don't like the fact this is just a game, as it is they would not have the guts to insult me to my face if they knew I was just a kid while they are adults most of them, and just hang with your friend and people who: A-know what manners are and B-know each player is a person. I have been yelled at a lot, by people I know are likely more than twice my age, yet I still have fun and treat people with respect. And remember, all of you who suffer that indignity, that out of all those people who shout and yell, most of them will not dare say it to your face. To the people who just mindlessly harass people, remember there is a person on the other end.

Funny you post this. Just last night I was on my Merc doing dailies on Oricon to support my PVP habit and there were 4 Pubs ganking people. I was by myself and they kept trying to gank me, except it took them about 3-4 min to kill me each time. They were saying things like "This is a PVP server noob" and nonsense. I did not reply. I got one of my guild mates and picked up two other Imps. We found them and had a 4 v 4 fight. They lasted about 20 seconds. I didnt say anything but they cloned and did not return.

Just let your fighting do the talking.

I thought all raging pvp people did was the "better" pvpers raging at the people who are worse at it, but it seems that everyone is raging at each other instead.

In the German-language PvP forums this is called "Forums PvP".

And to me it is a bit like Hooligans calling each other to meet and bash each other - on a lonely parking ground, somewhere in the wilderness, where they arrrive - usually 2 factions - having clubs and what not with them.

Sometimes they do it before or after sports matches, too.

I understand your point. To be honest, the biggest problem I have with your decribed behaviour is not the fact that you sometimes rage at "bads", but the fact that you have admitted that your "secondary goal" - meaning your own enjoyment from raging to another person - is at least as important as your "primary goal". I haven't noticed this to be the "harsh reality" on Red Eclipse at least. People sometimes treat each other in a disrespectful way, but it seems to be because of "the heat of the moment" - and even those aren't that common. But I don't know, maybe that's common in your server?

Indeed it is, as many of the player base we have on our server doesn't take kindly to criticism. As testimony from another poster from my server stated, no one likes to be proven they are doing something wrong no matter what nice way you put it.

So yeah, my ranting is a form of venting. I don't enjoy harping on someone for the fact of harping on them, it releases the frustration I gain from the constant abuse from egotistical casuals that think they know everything about PvP, yet they don't understand how a simple attack can stop a capper, or how you won't burn a tank down to zero with a pocket healer in the back loling while they keep said tank alive. Then when they fail, they shrug it off and blame it on how the other player is just simply better, while the veterans understand the problem isn't that the casual was weaker, but just stupid in comparison to the better player.

Enjoyment can be had then, as I release all the pent up anger on the people who deserve it, and also give them to tools to learn from their failings. This misguided good will has ultimately taught the negative aspects to the player base, where everyone can just blame their failings onto being worse than others or not taking responsibility for being ignorant and stupid. Rather than allow it, I seek to correct that fail mentality, gaining fun and enjoyment from not only correcting ignorance, but also releasing the pent up rage that it builds up.

EDIT: Also wanted to add this, as I feel it relates to your original topic

No, the ones who win and play the game are the strong, not the aggressive. And anyone can be strong, because all it takes is to suffer the abuse.

 

Think about it like weight lifting. Lifting weights and working out makes you strong, able to be more competitive. And do you know how weight lifting scientifically works?

 

You torture your muscles, where you make tiny little tears in the fibers to wear them out and bring them close to the breaking point. Then when they recover, the muscles come back stronger and bigger, in order to make sure you can handle the torturous activity a little better than before. The more weight you can then begin to lift, the stronger and stronger you become. So does that mean weight lifting should be outlawed or frowned upon? Because you can define it as torture, yet you can't disprove that's the method in making yourself "stronger"?

 

The problem isn't that people aren't exactly "lifting". The problem is that people don't seem to understand that if you want to be decent, you actually have to "workout". You don't get stronger by assuming you're going to be good without any effort, and that if you hypothetically just take a five pound weight and curl it 2 times, you aren't going to be doing anything that helps you. The more pain you can endure, the better you become. You rise in the face of the adversity, and you get crushed if you don't.

 

That's how competition works, and it's time people understand that if you want to be a contributor. It's not harassment, it's not unnecessary abuse, it's the truth people need to understand about PvP when they queue up for it.

Just type some words at the beginning to set a friendlier tone. If things start going bad, make a positive comment before the ranter gets her rant on. If you do something stupid, type "crap, I did [something stupid], so sry". People are generally forgiving of mistake if they know you know. That sounds all rainbows and kittens I know, like one of those "be the change you want" kind of messages ... but it sure seems to work. Been in a fair number of games lately where I tried to adopt that approach. I don't remember a single harsh comment back about it. I do remember a few random comments like, "It's great doing WZs with you, you are always so up beat."

 

So, yeah, you want a friendlier PvP community? Start being friendlier. Which is not the same thing as just passively "not ranting".

I want to say, not only I think this is an useful and pratical advise, but now that I think about it, I've done this apologize-if-you-make-a-mistake -thing too, pretty much as long as I have been at the skill level where I know what those mistakes are. And it does seem to work. I can remember the last times I've made a mistake in a warzone (I'm really good at hitting the wrong button while running with the huttball. Was supposed to activate a defensive ability, accidentally hit combat stealth or force camourflage), but I can't remember the last time someone would have raged at me because of that mistake.

I've assumed that's because the people on Red Eclipse seem to be usually nice, but maybe this behaviour is part of it. Any of the (frustrated) dedicated want to comment? If the person making the mistake apologized for it, would it make you feel better?

In the German-language PvP forums this is called "Forums PvP".

 

And to me it is a bit like Hooligans calling each other to meet and bash each other - on a lonely parking ground, somewhere in the wilderness, where they arrrive - usually 2 factions - having clubs and what not with them.

Sometimes they do it before or after sports matches, too.

I can certainly see why you would think of the pvp forums like that. There is a lot of anger here, mostly because of people being frustrated. Not to mention, that from my experience, people who are passionate and competitive about something (no matter if it was pvp, sports or anything else like that) get more easily frustrated when something isn't working. Those same people also want to know more about the thing they are passionate about, while people who aren't that passionate not necessarily want to go to internet to learn more about pvp. Hence, there are more of these competitive and passionate players in the forums than in the actual game, and this is probably a great place to them to complain about the "bads" and get some support and sympathy from other people who are also frustrated because of these "bads".

Anyway, I just want to add that even though the pvp players may seem a big bunch of jerks fighting with each other like they had nothing better to do, many of them (or us, if you accept a casual like me to the "pvp players"-group ^^) are actually nice and capable of rational conversation when they feel like it. ^^

Indeed it is, as many of the player base we have on our server doesn't take kindly to criticism. As testimony from another poster from my server stated, no one likes to be proven they are doing something wrong no matter what nice way you put it.

 

So yeah, my ranting is a form of venting. I don't enjoy harping on someone for the fact of harping on them, it releases the frustration I gain from the constant abuse from egotistical casuals that think they know everything about PvP, yet they don't understand how a simple attack can stop a capper, or how you won't burn a tank down to zero with a pocket healer in the back loling while they keep said tank alive. Then when they fail, they shrug it off and blame it on how the other player is just simply better, while the veterans understand the problem isn't that the casual was weaker, but just stupid in comparison to the better player.

 

Enjoyment can be had then, as I release all the pent up anger on the people who deserve it, and also give them to tools to learn from their failings. This misguided good will has ultimately taught the negative aspects to the player base, where everyone can just blame their failings onto being worse than others or not taking responsibility for being ignorant and stupid. Rather than allow it, I seek to correct that fail mentality, gaining fun and enjoyment from not only correcting ignorance, but also releasing the pent up rage that it builds up.

I actually also talked to a player who plays at your server (Beregen Colony, right?), and I think I understand your "ranting" a little better. What I heard is that A. this kind of "ranting" is actually very common in your server (so you could say that if one can't handle that, he/she can't handle the pvp in your server), B. there are very few people in your server who pvp (didn't you also mention this earlier in the conversation?) and C. there aren't many "medicores" in your server, just the dedicated and the "bads".

I think some of the differences we have in our views are due to the points A and C. In Red Eclipse, the amount of "ranting" is very small (so saying that if you can't handle ranting, you can't handle pvp, is a little funny, because in here, you could handle probably at least 90% of the matches even if you didn't like seeing people rage) and the amount of "medicore" players is (imo) pretty big. I'd like to think that the amount of raging you seem to describe you are doing (you haven't actually mentioned if you do this in every other match or every hundredth match, but I've gotten the feeling it's pretty common?) wouldn't be tolerated in Red Eclipse. I can remember many times when raging was actually answered with many snappy comments ("WHEN WILL YOU NOOBS LEARN TO PASS THE BALL?!!" "I don't know, next tuesday?" "Nah, I can't do it on tuesday, friday is better"). But the enviroment in your server is really different.

I'd like to point out, though, that the points B and C can be seen as a result to all the ranting happening in pvp. I'm sure things like dedicated players getting frustrated because of the large amount of "bads" and then transferring to another server also explain the lack of people doing pvp, but the raging is probably driving a lot of people away. The "medicore" people seem to be mostly pve players who also like to do some pvp and people who just do a little bit of everything without committing themselves fully to anything. Both of these groups may decide not to queue at all, if the enviroment in pvp is really "go tough or go home".

"Bads", excluding the "I'm bad but I'm aiming to dedicated"-people, may decide to not queue at all, way before they even reach the "medicore" skill level. Especially if they are blamed for something they didn't do, but rather what other "bads" did (I'm sure not every and each one of them "just blame their failings onto being worse than others or not taking responsibility for being ignorant and stupid", even if some do).

+ Just a small addition, I think the idea of "he was better than me" doesn't always mean not taking responsibility. It can just be good sportsmanship, being a "good loser". However, this "he was better than me" thinking should lead to the question "why was he better than me?". And during this thinking, a person hopefully realizes "Hmm, he had a healer, I didn't/he was beating at the person healing me, while I was beating him instead. Maybe I should try to kill the healer next time, since that would even the odds/worked out for him". Of course, if someone just decides that everyone's better than him and doesn't think of the part "why", then it's avoiding responsibility.

Anyway, any chance you could answer the question I asked earlier in this post? If the person making a mistake apologized for that mistake, would it affect your frustration/ranting?

I actually also talked to a player who plays at your server (Beregen Colony, right?), and I think I understand your "ranting" a little better. What I heard is that A. this kind of "ranting" is actually very common in your server (so you could say that if one can't handle that, he/she can't handle the pvp in your server), B. there are very few people in your server who pvp (didn't you also mention this earlier in the conversation?) and C. there aren't many "medicores" in your server, just the dedicated and the "bads".

BC, correct

A) Correct, although the () part is questionable.

B) As of recent server transfers, that is also somewhat correct. The major hit we took was to quality, but quantity is still somewhat the same.

C) Indeed, there is hardly a middle ground if not one at all.

I think some of the differences we have in our views are due to the points A and C. In Red Eclipse, the amount of "ranting" is very small (so saying that if you can't handle ranting, you can't handle pvp, is a little funny, because in here, you could handle probably at least 90% of the matches even if you didn't like seeing people rage) and the amount of "medicore" players is (imo) pretty big. I'd like to think that the amount of raging you seem to describe you are doing (you haven't actually mentioned if you do this in every other match or every hundredth match, but I've gotten the feeling it's pretty common?) wouldn't be tolerated in Red Eclipse. I can remember many times when raging was actually answered with many snappy comments ("WHEN WILL YOU NOOBS LEARN TO PASS THE BALL?!!" "I don't know, next tuesday?" "Nah, I can't do it on tuesday, friday is better"). But the enviroment in your server is really different.

My raging is actually not as frequent as many would argue, as it takes a build up of frustration that at times, can be sedated by carrying a team to a win. However, with the promotion of arenas being the dominate form of PvP especially high level, the aspect of being able to just carry a team isn't very realistic in a 4v4 setting, as success and failure are more tuned to team composition than ever before.

Thus, the venting and raging I've done before in the past has actually taken on a new form, in response to the new type of competition that forces more reliance on team play. I haven't had a wit battle with someone in a long time, however, as sometimes it would help vent the frustration even better if someone actually made a witty comeback in response.

The overall state of BC before server transfers was very top heavy. There were maybe four to five guilds, 3 Pubs, 2 Imps, where everyone held as center points for "if you want to be good, you join these guys". It in turn made the server very top heavy, were the best players were apart of the guilds and if you weren't, you were by generalization a scrub.

Now, with server transfers having given the silent pugs that were better than anyone from the guilds (coordination is really all they had, as a decent premade > a couple of all star pugs and bads) the ability to move onto servers like Bastion and PoT5, the community is rather pathetic. The Pubs don't queue anymore, unless it's the occasional double premade from one of the guilds that never really left the server, and for the Imps, we have such a huge influx of terrible players, people wouldn't know a node they hold versus one the enemy has.

And the worst part comes in the form of their overall reactions: their cockiness. The bads have developed such a low standard of PvP that with the good players all but gone, they believe they are "legendary" and they have developed an untouchable attitude that needs to be addressed. They believe they hold skill for being killed in 4 hits instead of 3, and they'll be damned if they let the sin DPS tank hybrid that gets the "Immortal" slogan from Civil Wars and Voidstars tell them they don't have a damn clue about the game.

So yes, it is a war between the bads and the goods. The others are silent about it, hoping that the server will work itself out. While I decided that I'm too competitive to just sit there and let the little punks talk big game and then cost a match for myself because of their overwhelming incompetence, so I will trash and harshly criticize anyone who can't do a simple job such as stopping a cap or hitting something other than a tank.

I'd like to point out, though, that the points B and C can be seen as a result to all the ranting happening in pvp. I'm sure things like dedicated players getting frustrated because of the large amount of "bads" and then transferring to another server also explain the lack of people doing pvp, but the raging is probably driving a lot of people away. The "medicore" people seem to be mostly pve players who also like to do some pvp and people who just do a little bit of everything without committing themselves fully to anything. Both of these groups may decide not to queue at all, if the enviroment in pvp is really "go tough or go home".

I'd like to keep it that way. If people are too easily disheartened by a few mean words over the internet, then they are also going to add to the quantity of non contributors. I'd rather have matches of competent players who understand their roles, what the game modes are, and how to match up to an enemy team then to try and encourage a new influx of players so we can get a middle class.

The problems of the server existed because the top heavy guilds continuously farmed the regular WZs to create a sense of crippled players, who came into the game and got smashed by the voice chat coordination of decent players. Since all they experienced were premades running them into the dirt, we have a bunch of players entering the queue that have been playing longer than myself that still don't know how to react in the face of better competition.

Now that these guilds are gone, we have very little examples left on the server who can showcase how to become good. And I'll keep my negative image, because no matter how much the bads try to talk back and trash myself, they can not deny where my skill comes from. And they also can't deny that it isn't because I hold so much greater reflexes or talents over anyone (I'm a clicking keyboard turner at that), but the fact that the mentality I have in regards to how the game is played.

"Bads", excluding the "I'm bad but I'm aiming to dedicated"-people, may decide to not queue at all, way before they even reach the "medicore" skill level. Especially if they are blamed for something they didn't do, but rather what other "bads" did (I'm sure not every and each one of them "just blame their failings onto being worse than others or not taking responsibility for being ignorant and stupid", even if some do).

I've seen that type, and on our server, they don't become mediocre. Even before I began to enter the general chat with the various remarks and harsh criticism, bads on the server developed into one thing: hateful scrubs that would never work on their skill, but talk louder and complain to the groups that beat them.

The only ones who improve their station in PvP are the ones you mentioned as an exclusion, as you don't become better just by continuously getting your face stomped in by competitive players. You dedicate to getting better, to where you sit there and you tell yourself you don't like getting stomped and you want to fight evenly with the other side.

Then you ask yourself "what are you going to do to beat the enemy?" And to answer that question and get better, you can't just be a casual. To answer that question, you basically make the switch from casual to competitive, where you realize the work effort you have to put in.

The casuals, when you go down that path, then develop a sense of "I can be good, and waste effort on a video game to improve. Or I can just preserve my misguided self image and keep doing what I'm doing, ultimately erupting into angry fits at the premades who farm me when it happens and spend my entire time whining about a game that supports their playstyle, instead of understanding that I need to put forth effort into getting better if I want to fix it".

Then, because they don't improve their playstyle with the desperate need to preserve their self image (which, ironically, the only difference between the two is effort. Both dedicated and casuals "waste" the same amount of time on the game), they quit PvP altogether or continuously repeat the cycle.

Just a small addition, I think the idea of "he was better than me" doesn't always mean not taking responsibility. It can just be good sportsmanship, being a "good loser". However, this "he was better than me" thinking should lead to the question "why was he better than me?". And during this thinking, a person hopefully realizes "Hmm, he had a healer, I didn't/he was beating at the person healing me, while I was beating him instead. Maybe I should try to kill the healer next time, since that would even the odds/worked out for him". Of course, if someone just decides that everyone's better than him and doesn't think of the part "why", then it's avoiding responsibility.

The last sentence encapsulates the server mentality for most bads where I'm from. You can tell by the responses when they are actually accepting that the loss was attributed to their lack of skill, or accepting the loss based on lack of skill for just that match. The annoying whiner that is already admitting defeat and claiming there's no way to beat the enemy team in the second half of the match is more prevalent than ever, and that's because they are focusing more on the inaction, rather than having the understanding that the game isn't over till it's over.

Anyway, any chance you could answer the question I asked earlier in this post? If the person making a mistake apologized for that mistake, would it affect your frustration/ranting?

Depends on the form of apology.

If it was done in a manner that wasn't sarcastic, had genuine understanding and recognition to the failure, and an overall presence where you could tell the person was looking to improve from said mistake, then the rage would most likely disappear in my case. Harsh criticism is my way of combining the pleasure from venting frustration and dishing out criticism where it is needed, and if one of those goals is accomplished, then the other is satisfied as well. You either learn a humility that will lead you into becoming a better player, or you get to experience the unfiltered rage that I leave out in the chat so I don't feel it later. Either one satisfies me, which a good apology like you are asking about satisfies the first clause.

I do not get mad at people who try to be on their game, who are willing to have the humility to understand there is never a spot in competition where you can say, "I'm untouchable". It's the ones who don't that inspire the rage, the ones who will fight against the undeniable proof that they have failed that receive my full wrath.

seriously, as it is I am only a 16 year old player yet I am treated like garbage in this game sometimes, some stuff I will admit is my fault (ranked, got pulled and pounced on, stunned and dpsed in less than 4 seconds, screwed it up for my team, am ashamed about it) , other times its nonsense (ever have a group for athiss kick you because at low levels they expected you to be best tank ever and then later in fleet chat bomb you saying that even after they kicked you and got a replacement that you screwed it up so much they could not kill the boss! How is it my fault that even when I am not there they can't kill it!). Anyway though, I am treated like a criminal in this game sometimes ( I do report these morons, one thing to criticize constructively, another thing to just use **** again and again while talking about me and later trashing me to the fleet

 

Anyway point is don't let it get to you, I just want to enjoy the game and have fun and some people don't like the fact this is just a game, as it is they would not have the guts to insult me to my face if they knew I was just a kid while they are adults most of them, and just hang with your friend and people who: A-know what manners are and B-know each player is a person. I have been yelled at a lot, by people I know are likely more than twice my age, yet I still have fun and treat people with respect. And remember, all of you who suffer that indignity, that out of all those people who shout and yell, most of them will not dare say it to your face. To the people who just mindlessly harass people, remember there is a person on the other end.

^^^not to get all whitney houston on you, but this is exactly why the kind of a**hattery that concerns the OP has no place in this game. this makes twice today that I've seen a post from a minor that is more rational and well-considered than the blathering emanating from us so-called "adults". there's competitive spirit, and then there's a**hattery, and it's pretty easy to tell the difference. this is not an adults-only game, and it's up to all of us to respect that.

Our posts are getting so long that I'll only quote the parts where I feel I have something new to say, if you don't mind. I, however, read your whole post, and if I don't answer to something you think I should anwser, feel free to point it out.

And the worst part comes in the form of their overall reactions: their cockiness. The bads have developed such a low standard of PvP that with the good players all but gone, they believe they are "legendary" and they have developed an untouchable attitude that needs to be addressed.

I actually agree with you, this attitude needs to be addressed. What I don't agree with you, is that it should be addressed by raging. It really doubt it does much good. Personally, I'd probably "address" it by witty or sarcastic comments like "I love it how you focus the tank instead of the healer next to him". That's at least imo a little less harsh than actual "ranting", but still gets the message out.

Though, my preferance for something like that may partly come from the fact that I personally listen to that kind of comments much better. To me, a person who makes a short, informative, rather calm but still criticizing comment seems like a experienced, but maybe a little annoyed player. Person, who goes ranting (don't take this as an insult or me saying that you'd be this, it's simply my first thought when I see someone ranting) seems like a pre-teen with an anger management problem. You don't have to guess twice to know which information I pay more attention to.

I'd like to keep it that way. If people are too easily disheartened by a few mean words over the internet, then they are also going to add to the quantity of non contributors.

I'd like to use myself as an example. For this, I have to reveal a fact about myself that you could possibly use somehow against me. I'm trusting you won't do this.

I'm suffering from depression. And I don't mean that I've figured out I'm feeling down a lot, I mean a diagnosed one I see a therapist for. I get upset easily. If the mean words are harsh enough and there's more than "few" of them, I might get depressed, anguished or just nervous. However, I can handle pvp on Red Eclipse. It's due to facts that A. There's not that much ranting in here and B. I know I'm not completely hopeless in pvp.

However, if someone had raged at me all the time when I was starting pvping, I would have never gotten to where I am now. That sort of constant negativity would have affected my mood way too much - probably to the point where I would be way too anguished and nervous to sleep in a couple of nights.

But even though I have my condition, I don't think that makes me non-contributor. I don't know if you think it does.

Then you ask yourself "what are you going to do to beat the enemy?" And to answer that question and get better, you can't just be a casual. To answer that question, you basically make the switch from casual to competitive, where you realize the work effort you have to put in.

Funny, I ask that question from myself quite a lot, and I still count myself to be a casual. I'm not competitive. Because of my condition (mentioned above), I really can't be competitive. I take any competition too seriously, I can't sleep. This is simply thinking I do everytime I fail at anything.

Depends on the form of apology.

 

If it was done in a manner that wasn't sarcastic, had genuine understanding and recognition to the failure, and an overall presence where you could tell the person was looking to improve from said mistake, then the rage would most likely disappear in my case. Harsh criticism is my way of combining the pleasure from venting frustration and dishing out criticism where it is needed, and if one of those goals is accomplished, then the other is satisfied as well. You either learn a humility that will lead you into becoming a better player, or you get to experience the unfiltered rage that I leave out in the chat so I don't feel it later. Either one satisfies me, which a good apology like you are asking about satisfies the first clause.

It's really nice to hear this. This means, that the "bads" aren't really doomed to listen to your "ranting". I mean, they could just confess their mistake and apologize for the team, and save themselves from your "ranting", right?

I'd like to ask you one more thing, though. How do you feel if the mistake he made was something he wasn't supposed to do, and he knew it, but accidentally managed to do it anyway? I.e. A person, who should know better, managed to tunnelvision and miss an inc call, and then apologized for it?

I'd call this a humane mistake, but wasn't sure from your answer what you think of that.

(Btw I hope humane is the right word to use here. I didn't know the english version of that word, so I had to use google translator. It just sounds a little funny... What I'm meaning by "humane mistake" is that people are not perfect, and even if you know you shouldn't do something, sometimes you still don't succeed not doing it.)

[Question about if person appologizes...]

If it was done in a manner that wasn't sarcastic, had genuine understanding and recognition to the failure, and an overall presence where you could tell the person was looking to improve from said mistake, then the rage would most likely disappear in my case.

Yes, this is exactly what I try to convey (and I think the question originally came from my comment about typing in chat "crap, I screwed up, sorry sorry sorry"). Obviously, you can't write a book about exactly how you screwed up, and how you plan on getting better, but I think a brief message like that is usually appreciated and enough.

Conversely, if someone starts raging at me, and I don't think I screwed up, I'll just ignore it during the game, and PM them afterwards to see what they think I should have done different. Sometimes they are right about my screwing up, and I learn stuff (like not to come guard the pylon when my Cc breaker is on cooldown). Sometimes I explain the situation to them, and they go "oh, sorry, I didn't know that, so nm" (like when I was called out for fighting off the doors in VS as cap was happening - I was originally on the *other* door, and saw the mismatch in enemies and tried to head around to the in-danger-door - but the enemy expertly cc-d me in the middle and I was stuck). Sometimes we part ways with neither of us being better off (like when some guy accused me of being AFK in a CW litterally 2 seconds after I helped him fight off an attack - he wasn't hearing any of it though). In that last case, I think that's when you need the thick skin, and as someone else posted, then let your fighting do the talking for you. (Had a huttball game with that AFK-guy right afterwards, so I just ignored his continuing comments and went on to play a good game and get many MVP votes. )