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[Wild and Crazy Idea] Flatten the upgrade tiers?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
[Wild and Crazy Idea] Flatten the upgrade tiers?

Delta_V's Avatar


Delta_V
04.27.2014 , 09:52 PM | #111
Quote: Originally Posted by Kuciwalker View Post
Dfield in particular always throws me for a loop on new ships, because I forget that the lock break isn't native.
Or the Armor Ignore on Heavy Lasers. On my mastered ships, it goes bang-bang-bang...bang-bang-bang....bang-bang-bang, ok, satellite clear, going in for the cap. Then I go on a ship w/ unupgraded Heavies and wonder why it seems to take forever to kill each turret.

And Ion Railgun.... you basically sit there wondering "why should I ever switch to this instead of Slug?" for the first three upgrade tiers. Then you get the last two upgrades, and it just becomes insane.

So yeah, I don't know how anyone can argue that upgrades don't provide a significant advantage.
Satele Shan - The Shepard Legacy
Sibbel - Sentinel Ethmandel - Commando
Shayar'a - Guardian Nassan'a - Sage
Issmenna - Gunslinger ]Shalla - Sniper

Armonddd's Avatar


Armonddd
04.27.2014 , 10:13 PM | #112
Quote: Originally Posted by Delta_V View Post
So yeah, I don't know how anyone can argue that upgrades don't provide a significant advantage.
Yeah. Upgrades provide a significant advantage, straight up. For weapons, it's probably more than your math implies -- Chris recently told us that percentage modifications apply to base damage, and thus stack additively.

That said... skill is still more important. My reaction time, shot efficiency (physical aiming plus tactically holding back on shots that would miss to save power), and ability to calculate and maintain a tactically superior flight path are probably at least an order of magnitude higher than they were when I started playing. You really do learn a lot in your first 50 matches or so, and that experience is a hell of a lot more important than anything upgrades can give you. Remember back when we were all barrel rolling into asteroids?
Space Ace of <Death Squadron>, <Black Squadron>, <Eclipse Squadron>, and <solo da>

Delta_V's Avatar


Delta_V
04.27.2014 , 10:21 PM | #113
Quote: Originally Posted by Armonddd View Post
Yeah. Upgrades provide a significant advantage, straight up. For weapons, it's probably more than your math implies -- Chris recently told us that percentage modifications apply to base damage, and thus stack additively.

That said... skill is still more important. My reaction time, shot efficiency (physical aiming plus tactically holding back on shots that would miss to save power), and ability to calculate and maintain a tactically superior flight path are probably at least an order of magnitude higher than they were when I started playing. You really do learn a lot in your first 50 matches or so, and that experience is a hell of a lot more important than anything upgrades can give you. Remember back when we were all barrel rolling into asteroids?
Oh, of course. If you take a new pilot and put them up against a vet w/ 500+ matches under their belt, it won't matter what ships you give them, the skill gap will dominate the gear gap. But if you're dealing with pilots of *remotely* the same skill level, the improved damage and survivability, and the way those synergize together (more damage = more dead enemies = more survivability, more survivability = more opportunities to do damage instead of running/dying), will have a huge impact on the outcome.

edit: As far as the numbers, that was assuming all of the bonuses get multiplied together (that is, the 16% hull damage gets multiplied by the 5% damage increase). I wasn't sure if Capacitors were additive or multiplicative, so I didn't include them. Likewise, I didn't account for Range bonuses, which also increase your damage potential, because it's harder to quantify their benefit. And of course, many weapons get +Accuracy upgrades, which are also harder to predict - against a bomber, where it's easier to keep them centered, more Accuracy might not help much, but against a scout, a 5% accuracy increase might be a 10% or greater damage increase. Then you can get into the synergistic effects - more speed/turning = more time on target; more durability = more time shooting and less time running, etc..... My numbers were just to demonstrate the absolute *minimum* effect, principally the purely quantitative numbers (your lasers *always* do 5% more damage, etc.)
Satele Shan - The Shepard Legacy
Sibbel - Sentinel Ethmandel - Commando
Shayar'a - Guardian Nassan'a - Sage
Issmenna - Gunslinger ]Shalla - Sniper

Verain's Avatar


Verain
04.28.2014 , 08:55 AM | #114
Upgrades are not created equal.

The most important upgrades are normally the early ones- railgun charge time, rocket pods ignore armor, 8% blaster damage. The rest of the tree quakes with impotence trying to match those.

But then there's some that are just wild. "Ignore Armor" is normally T3 or T4. T4 is 10k! And versus turrets, this is like double damage or something, and a pretty big boost versus most hulls. The 10k ion raligun can't even stop talking.

"Hits Do Area Damage"

"Railgun hits arc to up to three nearby enemies, doing 15% extra damage and draining 18 engine and weapon power"

Lets get this straight- this talent, which has a four word NAME, can't even describe the remaining two thirds of the ability. That's this talent? The 18 engine and weapon power part seem important too, right?




Anyway, in GENERAL, most ships perform within a dozen percentage points or so of their mastered versions (150k versions) once thy have but a pittance of relative req earned (say, 30k). The outliers are exactly that. It's very frustrating to take on bombers in low req ships, for instance- there's not any poor man's armor piercing except for rocket pods, and there really needs to be.

Zoom_VI's Avatar


Zoom_VI
04.28.2014 , 10:03 AM | #115
Quote: Originally Posted by Devrius View Post
Now, add TT which many FF and Sting use: 10% extra crit chance, 25% surge, 8% extra evasion and let's not forget Cluster Missiles they get 30% extra damage in their last tier alone...

Heck, take into consideration the fact a new player won't have the right crew or that since mobility is a huge part of offense/defense better thrusters and better turning rate (tier 3 engine) will add a good deal of defensive and offensive options.

Just look at his math on quad lasers, add the extra damage with TT and pour Concentrated Fire on top of that and try to say how 40% is bad math. If anything it's a rather low estimate.
For starters you cannot assume companion abilities, because you can start with those. I started with bypass, and that was back pre-nerf. Saying that new pilots may not have the right companions is valid, however that is a purely skill/knowledge related thing, *not* a grind related one. (I'm sure most new pilots are not level 1s) Including companions is just a vain attempt to inflate your own numbers.

Also your survivability numbers and damage numbers are wholly dependent on the craft having a systems, capacitor, reactor, and armor. There is only one single class in the game that has access to that. On top of that you are assuming that the offensive system ability (note many scouts don't take TT or BO) is always up.

In other words your numbers are only valid if the mastered ship is both a flashfire, has all its cooldowns popped, and that the unmastered ship is deliberately using inferior companions.

That's completely and utterly biased math.

Now in that specific situation you described, yes the master ship is vastly superior, but its such a niche case that you cannot use it as a general "all master ships are this much better" statement. Particularly since your factoring cooldown effectiveness while ignoring cooldown uptime.
Crinn

Sanity is for the weak minded.

LilSaihah's Avatar


LilSaihah
04.28.2014 , 05:41 PM | #116
Quote: Originally Posted by Zoom_VI View Post
For starters you cannot assume companion abilities, because you can start with those. I started with bypass, and that was back pre-nerf. Saying that new pilots may not have the right companions is valid, however that is a purely skill/knowledge related thing, *not* a grind related one. (I'm sure most new pilots are not level 1s) Including companions is just a vain attempt to inflate your own numbers.
Depending on your class, it could very well be an obstacle to achieving optimal output. Qyzen Fess and T7-01, for example, are very good crewmembers to buy, but you can only start with one of them.
The Ebon Hawk
Sarrina | Nazani
Erinya | Tinaria | Laife

Zoom_VI's Avatar


Zoom_VI
04.28.2014 , 07:39 PM | #117
Quote: Originally Posted by LilSaihah View Post
Depending on your class, it could very well be an obstacle to achieving optimal output. Qyzen Fess and T7-01, for example, are very good crewmembers to buy, but you can only start with one of them.
That makes the assumption that the player is starting with a level ten, I would say most players don't start GSF with a fresh toon, I didn't and most of the pilots I know didn't either. The other issue with using companions in such a comparison is that the companions vary by faction and they also differ depending on what class the pilot is. Simply put there are too many variables and assumptions that he was making in his math. Particularly since he didn't even bother factoring in a co-pilot or crew in for the non-mastered ship, but did so for the mastered one.
Crinn

Sanity is for the weak minded.

LilSaihah's Avatar


LilSaihah
04.28.2014 , 08:15 PM | #118
Quote: Originally Posted by Zoom_VI View Post
That makes the assumption that the player is starting with a level ten, I would say most players don't start GSF with a fresh toon, I didn't and most of the pilots I know didn't either.
That doesn't change the point that T7-01 and Qyzen Fess are both optimal for a gunship, yet you always need to buy at least one or the other, which is a mathematical advantage that should be factored into the analysis.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zoom_VI View Post
The other issue with using companions in such a comparison is that the companions vary by faction and they also differ depending on what class the pilot is. Simply put there are too many variables and assumptions that he was making in his math.
Sure, they vary by faction, but varying by class is an advantage towards the entrenched GSF player because you can buy the additional companions with fleet requisition. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect an entrenched GSF player to have at least bought the key companions from other classes.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zoom_VI View Post
Particularly since he didn't even bother factoring in a co-pilot or crew in for the non-mastered ship, but did so for the mastered one.
For this point in particular, I would say the correct assumption to make is either default crew or no crew. It is a fair assumption that a mastered ship has optimized crewmembers. Adjust his math according to what you believe is the correct assumption.
The Ebon Hawk
Sarrina | Nazani
Erinya | Tinaria | Laife

General_Brass's Avatar


General_Brass
04.29.2014 , 01:47 AM | #119
Quote: Originally Posted by Zoom_VI View Post
For starters you cannot assume companion abilities, because you can start with those. I started with bypass, and that was back pre-nerf. Saying that new pilots may not have the right companions is valid, however that is a purely skill/knowledge related thing, *not* a grind related one. (I'm sure most new pilots are not level 1s) Including companions is just a vain attempt to inflate your own numbers.
Well a vet will have all the best companions available, and a new player may or may not. Hard to analyze so didn't bother, but it's pretty clear that it will be an advantage. Especially since a veteran can theoretically have multiple ships for the same role and take the optimal loadout for a given situation.

Quote:
Also your survivability numbers and damage numbers are wholly dependent on the craft having a systems, capacitor, reactor, and armor. There is only one single class in the game that has access to that. On top of that you are assuming that the offensive system ability (note many scouts don't take TT or BO) is always up.
The higher tier targeting telemetry is up 40% ? (game is down at the moment so I can't check) of the time, just how much more than that are you actually firing ?

Every ship has higher tier abilities that add to damage and or survivability. Distortion field provides a lock break at high tier. It's hard to quantify just how much benefit that provides but I can't imagine it being negligible.

Quote:
In other words your numbers are only valid if the mastered ship is both a flashfire, has all its cooldowns popped, and that the unmastered ship is deliberately using inferior companions.

That's completely and utterly biased math.
Yes but it's biased to understate the actual advantage.

Armonddd's Avatar


Armonddd
04.29.2014 , 01:29 PM | #120
Quote: Originally Posted by General_Brass View Post
The higher tier targeting telemetry is up 40% ? (game is down at the moment so I can't check) of the time, just how much more than that are you actually firing ?
Mastered TT is 50% uptime, BO is 30%. If you're not firing more often than that (excluding times when you're approaching a point or etc and thus shouldn't be using either anyway), you're gonna have a bad time.
Space Ace of <Death Squadron>, <Black Squadron>, <Eclipse Squadron>, and <solo da>