So nerfing a lvl 48 aoe so it does comparable damage to a grenade and lots more aoe abilities is ok? also the simple fact that if they didn't want us to use OS in our single target rotation then engineering has many talents that boost aoe...

While markmanship has lower cooldown and cast + when we use SV we need to waste energy.. and OS was a great energy dump... So the only tree that shouldn't use OS would of been lethality/hybrid... and for just that they nerf the other 2?

They have to be consistent... if they don't want us to use it.. then change our abilities to we use something else.. and give us something else to waste are energy for SV. And if they wanna nerf something nerf scatter bombs...

Like you said with OS our rotation was perfect now we'll have some empty places to fill something in.

So if they don't want us to use it.. be consistent and give us a real reason not to use it.. don't just over nerf it

I am ok with the pvp set bonus change so even with just that it was a dps loss.

If i were a pvper i'd love the changes. Orbital strike spam on the nodes, it'll be impossible to cap novare mid with all the snipers and operative healers cycling their orbitals. short cast time, lower cooldown..

 

If you are a pver.. well they nerfedd this because they want to get rid of Hybrids and move people back to full Lethality. 2 Hybrid specs were killed in the PTS.. Vanguard Hybrid and Sniper Hybrid. This is a smart move and will probably help them balance Marksman and Full Lethality better/easier. And there's Engineering as well.

Kill hybrids and remove cooldown AoEs from single target rotation XD. like how mercs/vgs use mortar volley only when there are multiple targets. im on pts right now and trying to find a way to make MM less , "random". right now random GCDs pop out in weird spots of the rotation. maybe that's one thing we'll have to get used to.

The thing is, I don't think it was until they realizes DPS Operatives were also using the 2 piece PVP Field Tech bonus (and therefore using OS in their ST rotations), that they were on a crusade to kill the ability. Back when they answered Sniper Top 3 questions, the concern was that Lethality Snipers were using OS in their rotations and that wasn't intended, but they knew that a nerf to the ability would adversely impact both Engineering and Marksmanship, essentially admitting what is obvious from those skill trees which is that those Specs ARE supposed to be using it in rotation. Seems to me they forgot about those concerns after the Scoundrel questions.

The using a PVP bonus in PVE was a valid concern, and like you I expected that change. I'd have preferred that at the same time they made the 4 piece a tad more appealing for PVE, but there you are.

For killing hybrids, I maintain that this really didn't do anything. A slight DPS nerf, but not nearly as bad as that done to Marksmanship, and for many Hybrid was already ahead.

The holes your finding in marksmanship now are due to two things I think Paowee:

First of course the lack of OS which means that every Sniper Volley window suddenly has a solid GCD extra in which to do something. On live right now you can usually see this during the opener where we precast Orbital so don't use it in the first SV window. It's the perfect place to reapply your initial Corrosive dart. After that, you always use that extra GCD on casting Orbital. Now that we aren't using it, I'm not sure what to put in there.

Second, there's the duration buff to Corrosive Dart. A 15s Corrosive Dart already sorta floated around the rotation because you didn't want to clip it, and there was always a free GCD in there to use it between Ambushes because of how the Ambush CD works. You might cast it immediately after Ambush in one run through of the rotation, then the next one you use it after SoS, then the next one you use it after your two Snipes.. Now however, at 18s duration, if you want to make sure not to clip it it's going to float around even more and it's entirely possible to get in two Ambushes and nowhere to use CD without significant clipping.

That's sort of the new problem created by these changes. We have holes in our rotation now, but nothing significant to put in there. I suppose it will make it easier for us to use the Armor Debuff if we're the only one with it. Not exactly a DPS gain, but what can you do?

It's simply a disgrace that Bioware isn't checking up on us after such a change

In their defense they don't post on the weekend. On the other hand they had to know how unpopular this change was gonna be and amounts to the kind of "mic drop" they expressed regret over after the disaster that was the Sorc/Vanguard answers.

Exactly..

Smash jugs/marauder use smash on single target because they have a talent to crit..

They give us talents too boost OS so we use it.. and 2 of the 3 sniper trees have talents to boost it... So the whole we don't want you to use it... well how about you give us talents that boost something else then..

And they always seem to do big nerfes because of hybrids... why don't they force us to put 36 points in a tree before we can put any in something else... It would fix all hybrids (that they don't seem to like) and make it easier to balance the game by having less possibilites (which they have a hard time doing).

So with OS doing no more damage than a grenade take it out give us a single target abiliy and change our talent to boost that instead. Make it a big energy ability so we can use it with SV only.

Oh and since they nerfect OS so much the 4 piece pvp set bonus is now even more useless.. And sniper has never good pvp set bonus to begin with... So either swap 2 piece to 4 piece and keep OS as is.. .or nerf OS and give us a new pvp set bonus...

my testing shows it is a dps loss now using orbital strike on cooldown . we have 2 talents buffing this ability and now those talents are now just filler skill points..

The thing is, I don't think it was until they realizes DPS Operatives were also using the 2 piece PVP Field Tech bonus (and therefore using OS in their ST rotations), that they were on a crusade to kill the ability. Back when they answered Sniper Top 3 questions, the concern was that Lethality Snipers were using OS in their rotations and that wasn't intended, but they knew that a nerf to the ability would adversely impact both Engineering and Marksmanship, essentially admitting what is obvious from those skill trees which is that those Specs ARE supposed to be using it in rotation. Seems to me they forgot about those concerns after the Scoundrel questions.

 

The using a PVP bonus in PVE was a valid concern, and like you I expected that change. I'd have preferred that at the same time they made the 4 piece a tad more appealing for PVE, but there you are.

 

For killing hybrids, I maintain that this really didn't do anything. A slight DPS nerf, but not nearly as bad as that done to Marksmanship, and for many Hybrid was already ahead.

 

The holes your finding in marksmanship now are due to two things I think Paowee:

 

First of course the lack of OS which means that every Sniper Volley window suddenly has a solid GCD extra in which to do something. On live right now you can usually see this during the opener where we precast Orbital so don't use it in the first SV window. It's the perfect place to reapply your initial Corrosive dart. After that, you always use that extra GCD on casting Orbital. Now that we aren't using it, I'm not sure what to put in there.

 

Second, there's the duration buff to Corrosive Dart. A 15s Corrosive Dart already sorta floated around the rotation because you didn't want to clip it, and there was always a free GCD in there to use it between Ambushes because of how the Ambush CD works. You might cast it immediately after Ambush in one run through of the rotation, then the next one you use it after SoS, then the next one you use it after your two Snipes.. Now however, at 18s duration, if you want to make sure not to clip it it's going to float around even more and it's entirely possible to get in two Ambushes and nowhere to use CD without significant clipping.

 

That's sort of the new problem created by these changes. We have holes in our rotation now, but nothing significant to put in there. I suppose it will make it easier for us to use the Armor Debuff if we're the only one with it. Not exactly a DPS gain, but what can you do?

 

 

 

In their defense they don't post on the weekend. On the other hand they had to know how unpopular this change was gonna be and amounts to the kind of "mic drop" they expressed regret over after the disaster that was the Sorc/Vanguard answers.

One thing i know for sure is that using Orbital as MM now on a single target is going to be a dps loss compared to using the new MM rotation. wish i had better gear for some reason i still have UW after trasnferring my toon to the pts. Im more curious about lethality and hybrid trho.

on the other side of the specs... i love the orbital change for full lethality i wish torparse wasn't so slow today..

How's it working for Full Lethality?

Also as said, I expect Hybrid and Lethality to both be more or less ok. What's the new MM rotation you're finding?

I'm seriously wondering about taking the ArmPen talent for Ambush in the MM tree (instead of Crit Multiplier for Area Effects, or does it work for CG also?) and just using SoS > Ambush whenever you don't need to use Explosive Probe, or regen energy. This is for the Hybrid of course (though I suppose Lethality could do it too, but they have that one less GCD because of Headshot, so IDK).

Also are you using the Covered Escape alternative rotation to help Lethality keep up with the Hybrid?

If i were a pvper i'd love the changes. Orbital strike spam on the nodes, it'll be impossible to cap novare mid with all the snipers and operative healers cycling their orbitals. short cast time, lower cooldown.

Dude...you really need to broaden your horizons. Novare is literally the only warzone I can think of that it will be useful, even for engineering snipers and that's because the cap area is so large. Otherwise they have made the skill entirely useless.

This change is going to hurt pvp snipers in a way I don't think you pver's will realise.

Dude...you really need to broaden your horizons. Novare is literally the only warzone I can think of that it will be useful, even for engineering snipers and that's because the cap area is so large. Otherwise they have made the skill entirely useless.

 

This change is going to hurt pvp snipers in a way I don't think you pver's will realise.

lol don't ask me not really a pvper.

There are more parses but torparse was so slow and i've lost track of which hybrid/hybrid with os/lethality/lethality with os parses are matched with which.

5 min.

Hybrid with OS - 2896 DPS http://www.torparse.com/a/550693/time/1389570066/1389570367/0/Overview

Lethality with OS - 2928 DPS http://www.torparse.com/a/550693/time/1389570445/1389570745/0/Damage+Dealt

Rnadom parses

Lethality without OS - 1955 DPS, 2629 DPS, 2876 DPS, 2714 DPS

http://www.torparse.com/a/550502/6/0/Damage+Dealt

http://www.torparse.com/a/550562/time/1389562571/1389562751/0/Damage+Dealt

http://www.torparse.com/a/550562/time/1389562841/1389563021/0/Overview

http://www.torparse.com/a/550433/2/0/Damage+Dealt

Lethality with OS - 2007 DPS, 2741 DPS, 2897 DPS, (lost)

http://www.torparse.com/a/550502/6/0/Damage+Dealt

http://www.torparse.com/a/550562/time/1389562841/1389563021/0/Overview

http://www.torparse.com/a/550562/time/1389562841/1389563021/0/Overview

(lost)

Lethality filler abilities

Snipe - 142 DPS, 163 DPS,

http://www.torparse.com/a/550439/2/0/Damage+Dealt

Roll - 145 DPS, 140 DPS,

http://www.torparse.com/a/550439/2/0/Damage+Dealt

Orbital Strike - (lost), (lost)

Orbital Strike was the best filler of the 3

The Hybrid vs Lethality parses.. are botchy. Need to do more and need others to confirm.

Marksman

Lost all the full length parses so made these ones instead. The first Charged burst parse forgot to keep Smuggler's Luck on cooldown. These parses were, 1 Charged Burst for every Flyby over 5+ mins. GCD per GCD they seem to do the same DPS but only if you use Smuggler's Luck on cooldown. With Smuggler's Luck on cooldown both Flyby and CB seem to do the same DPS. Flyby has the advantage of being better damage per energy over a sustained period. For short burst phases though, Charged Burst is better damage per second.

Used same number of times over 5+ mins

Charged burst 117 DPS, 143 DPS

http://www.torparse.com/a/550768/4/0/Damage+Dealt.

http://www.torparse.com/a/550778

Flyby 139 DPS, 145 DPS.

http://www.torparse.com/a/550768/4/0/Damage+Dealt

http://www.torparse.com/a/550778

Initially i thought it would be a DPS gain to swap Charged Burst where Flyby would be. It was a DPS gain in short length parses but over 5 minutes, i need Flyby as a filler if i want to stay above 60 regen. Both CB and Flyby do the same DPS per activation and you need to keep Smuggler's Luck on cooldown for that to even happen. And Charged Burst costs more than Flyby (~20 vs 10) Overall i feel nothing changed for MM rotation other than losing a big chunk of DPS from the Orbital nerf.

I spent more time trying out Lethality with os and lethality without. Haven't done a lot on Hybrid vs Lethality

In the end for Marksman its going to be a slight nuisance trying to keep flyby up every 30 seconds. iguess its not too bad to have another ability to use or keep track. but from what we were used to before, we have to "work more" to do less DPS when this patch hits (MM spec).

I like the OS change for full lethality.. i just squeeze it in between the 2 wounding shots and its definitely better than trying to run to the boss and using covered escape. if i have the energy i would use charged burst but more often than not i feel using OS on cooldown does a better job in energy management (CB + 2nd WS will graze the ~59 energy bracket). the new OS gives a nice filler for that extra GCD that pops up in between Culls.

LOL so OS might still be used in Lethality ST rotation? GG BW.

Question: For the extra GCD during Orbital have you tried plugging in Explosive Probe? It's about the only thing we have left as an energy burn =/

Paowee, you've done an excellent job as a rep so far but I really think you should get on BW's case more on this. Its not simply a matter of a single target dps nerf (which seems to be what you've been focusing on), but really a removal of a key capstone ability for the class. Orbital strike IS THE defining ability for the class and cannot be nerfed down to below grenade damage levels. This is effectively removing this iconic ability from us and giving us some crap AoE filler (yes its jsut going to be a filler between grenades now even for AOE situations). That these changes are even being considered demonstrates Bioware's complete inability to link numerical changes to actual game play.

The 2.6 changes are especially inane for the following reasons:

1. At some point no amount of cost and cooldown reduction cannot make up for a damage nerf. Sniper AOE dps is not greatly boosted by either, because we have no other particularly good option that we can use the extra energy for, and no raid fight is benefits enough from the 15s reduction in cooldown in terms of add waves. Halfing the cost and dps of an abiility is not a neutral change - because there is no comparable ability to fill the opportunity cost.

2. Far from being just a single target dps nerf to OS, this change fundamentally alters the role of a sniper withing the raid. From being the go to aoe burst down role, we now barely do more than a warrior. If that is the balance intention, fine, but don't say its merely to "remove it from the single target dps rotation." It clearly is not, and there are other ways to do the latter, which brings me to:

There are so many ways to remove OS from the single target rotation without removing its AoE utility and the feel of the ability. The key question to bioware is, what exactly is the rationale for removing it? Is it just a matter of certain specs using it on cooldown for single target dps (i.e, hybrid). Is it all specs? Or is it also deemed out of proportion as an AOE ability. All of the above have the option to be adjusted without destroying it as a cool, iconic ability. Consider the following possibilities:

1. Nerf its damage but make it do multiplicative splash damage that increasses in damage the more adds it hits.

2. Keep its 2.5 dmg and cost but let it give a damage resistance to subsequent orbital strikes to the target (so its only good for the first precast orbital and for adds that will die after a cast).'

3. Increase its cost and cast time so that it is unreasonable as a single target ability. Can also slightly decrease its damage if it is deemed OP as a aoe dps burst move. (increase cost to 45, increase cast time to 4.5s, reduce damage to 80% of current damage).

4. Similar to 3, but possibly change it to a long cast-time channel ability like force quake (same damage as live but damage is channeled over 6-9s).

5. Make it cost 65 energy, but refund some energy per mob hit for each tick.

All of the above would let you move it out of the single target rotation and also tune its AOE utility without removing it as the capstone add killing ability for the class. The 2.6 nerfs are especially unacceptable to me because it is now changing OS as a AOE FILLER ability between grenades. This simply makes no sense at all, and if sniper were my only raiding toon this is the change that would make me unsub (I've been playing non-stop, subbed, since beta).

So please. please, consider this change more seriously as our rep. It has far deeper implications on our enjoyment and aoe utility as a class than just a simple single target PvE dps nerf.

Thanks Bioware. Now just put those sents/maras and mercs/mandos in your sights, that would be awesome. 2014 is already turning out to be a great year, keep up the great patches. (in all seriousness)

You do realize none of the changes make Vig guardian any better right? I'd think you'd prefer they actually buff your class rather than nerf 4 others (Slingers, Sents, Mandos, and Vanguards).

Keep screwing it up for no good reason BW. Keep up the class balance which does absolutely nothing to address the real problems with class balance.

lol don't ask me not really a pvper.

 

As I've heard you're class rep so let me help you out on that one.

Yes, some of you might see the orbital strike nerf to be good for pvpers because we can spam it now with low energy on capping points.

This is indeed good, but for nothing except normal warzones, and only a few at that.

Those who play ranked however are much, MUCH more screwed. As nowadays ranked is only Arenas damage gets quite a bit more important. Not to put out more damage or burst (which does help though) but to keep yourself safe.

This is possible because of the great output of damage it did (wasn't OP in pvp, people just needed to stay out of it). And in Solo Ranked, people stay in it A LOT as I'm 90% of the time first to die according to opposing team.

It helps me survive longer and put out loads of damage in the short time I'm alive whether they stand in it or not.

For group ranked this kind of works the same way but only with area denial since players there aren't as stupid to stay inside.

Area denial and big damage are both gone now. Everybody will laugh at me when I put up the big tickle beam of love from above on myself in ranked to keep people off me, and they will just start destroying me not caring about those 900-1800 ticks where it used to do 2000-6000

LOL so OS might still be used in Lethality ST rotation? GG BW.

 

Question: For the extra GCD during Orbital have you tried plugging in Explosive Probe? It's about the only thing we have left as an energy burn =/

For which spec? Full Lethality?

The orbital change is a DPS buff afaik for Full Lethality. A big nerf for Hybrid and MM. Lethality has 1 extra GCD between its 2 Culls. I stated here http://swtorboard.org/2013/10/11/sniper-dps-guide-by-boarder/ (scroll down)

 

Advanced rotation

 

Corrosive Mine is a talent introduced to Snipers in 2.0. It leaves a small patch of poisonous clound on the ground where you rolled from and lasts for several seconds. It doesn’t do a lot of damage but is a source of damage nonetheless. The other downside is it requires you to be in close range of your target.

 

There is ~1 GCD that appears inside your rotation. Most of the time this GCD is used to auto-attack. You can squeeze Covered Escape in this 1 GCD. The cooldown of Covered Escape is 20 seconds and ideally can be used on cooldown in between your normal single target rotation.

 

Parse analysis without Corrosive Mines and with Corrosive Mine

 

5 min parse. 2807 DPS without Covered Escape

 

2914 DPS with Covered Escape

... that this hole can be filled by Covered Escape to do ~100 more DPS. That hole can also be filled by Snipe or Charged Burst but it's harder (tho possible) to sustain that because of Snipe's energy cost. And Orbital Strike is basically = Snipe's damage right now but better DPE (Snipe is 25? or 20? Orbital strike in 2.6 is 10 energy)... With the orbital change you can fill that hole with Orbital Strike but i did it by clipping the end of Series of Shots.

DOT 1 - DOT 2 - WB - Cull - Orbital STrike - Series of Shots (watch Cull's cooldown, at 1 second hit Takedown) - Cull.

I did Ful Lethality without Orbital Strike (and without roll because that's not going to be viable all the time in raids), and the filler for that hole was either a Rifle Shot, or none at all. Ofcourse Lethality WITH orbital strike is going to do more than Lethality with Rifle Shot as filler.

I tried Lethality using Snipe for that filler and it is possible to sustain, but you can't "ability queue" Snipe with your 2nd Cull. If you do that you're going to end up on the ~59 energy bracket (slightly) from 100 energy. So i used lag in order to delay the Snipe + 2nd Cull and doing it that way was sustainable. In a raid with a lot of things going on, using Snipe that way might be a DPS loss because you'll more likely end up delaying Cull instead longer and longer into the fight.

So for that filler i used Orbital Strike instead..

DOT 1 - DOT 2 - WB - Cull - Orbital STrike - Series of Shots (watch Cull's cooldown, at 1 second hit Takedown) - Cull.

The last tick of Series of Shots is around.. ~1500? or 2500 when it crits. Orbital Strike's full damage is ~3900. It's worth it clipping the last tick of Series of Shots as you can see... 1500 or 2500 is < 3900. So this change made Orbital Strike (for me at least) rotational in Full Lethality's rotation.

LOL so OS might still be used in Lethality ST rotation? GG BW.

 

Question: For the extra GCD during Orbital have you tried plugging in Explosive Probe? It's about the only thing we have left as an energy burn =/

I tried using EP instead of OS. Its still about 200 DPS lost.

I ran the Hybrid for 20min on the PTS. I noticed that I was able to get off more Grenades than I normally would have on Live.

http://www.torparse.com/a/549317/1/0/Damage+Dealt

On Live though I missed a few Culls because of the GCD bug so my numbers went down a bit. The GCD bug was not present on the PTS which is a good thing.

http://www.torparse.com/a/549356/1/0/Damage+Dealt

-J:cool: