Griefing: rare occasions of frustration should be part and parcel with a massively online multiplayer environment

It isn't just intentional griefing. I remember it was pretty common for people to accidentally block out the bank entrances in EQ by going afk and not realizing where they were standing.

It isn't just intentional griefing. I remember it was pretty common for people to accidentally block out the bank entrances in EQ by going afk and not realizing where they were standing.

Duly noted, but remember games have come a long way since EQ. It's possible, even probable, that they've devised a way to circumvent some of those issues.

Some will always find a way to grief other players so it really shouldn't be cause to not have collision; IMO collision detection should be in any game with pvp.

Ah, yes, the ol' "If we can't fix everything, we shouldn't fix anything" mentality.

Collision detection is a long-term maintenance headache, and it's better to have a system where you don't have to worry about it (especially in a multi-player game)

It's sort of like clipping issues: it's a long-term maintenance headache, and if you can it's better to try to build a system from the start that will not have that problem.

Ah, yes, the ol' "If we can't fix everything, we shouldn't fix anything" mentality.

Wait, isn't that the motto you're promulgating?

Can't they just devise a way for collision detection to exist in the GTN while at the same time bypassing any potential tomfoolery? I'm sure it can be done.

Oh, it can be done, and the mathematics for collision detection with bounding boxes is straightforward.

Implementing it, however, will produce one of two results: Either the faction fleets turn into slideshows with framerates measured in seconds per frame, or (depending on whether collision detection happens on the server or the client) Bioware (on the server) or each SWTOR player (on the client) will need to -- at a minimum -- double the processing power of their computers to handle the additional load of collision-detection checks against other mobs.

Oh, it can be done, and the mathematics for collision detection with bounding boxes is straightforward.

 

Implementing it, however, will produce one of two results: Either the faction fleets turn into slideshows with framerates measured in seconds per frame, or (depending on whether collision detection happens on the server or the client) Bioware (on the server) or each SWTOR player (on the client) will need to -- at a minimum -- double the processing power of their computers to handle the additional load of collision-detection checks against other mobs.

Ouch.

How did Age of Conan manage to get away with such a performance drainer?

Griefing: rare occasions of frustration should be part and parcel with a massively online multiplayer environment

No. It's a game. I play games to have fun, not to be frustrated.

People who want MOAR immersion should do something that doesn't involve a computer.

Griefing: rare occasions of frustration should be part and parcel with a massively online multiplayer environment

 

No. It's a game. I play games to have fun, not to be frustrated.

Hear, hear.

People who want MOAR immersion should do something that doesn't involve a computer.

Like those mud race things.

Wait, isn't that the motto you're promulgating?

Nope.

You have to remember while most people that play mmo's are nice friendly gamers there are always the lonely, angry and immature that will use any on line game to bully other people.

If you don't believe spend a couple of hours playing WZ's. They have screen and keyboard to hide behind and will take any excuse to hurt others because they know there are little to no consequences. And as you can see from some of the posts above, some of them actually believe that's its OK because its a video game and hurting others is actually part of any mmo experience.....

Any mmo that try's to cut down on the amount of crap one player can pull on others has done a good job.

Griefing: rare occasions of frustration should be part and parcel with a massively online multiplayer environment

 

No. It's a game. I play games to have fun, not to be frustrated.

 

People who want MOAR immersion should do something that doesn't involve a computer.

I appreciate that, but you must also take into account the many other people who see immersion as one of the—if not THE—most important aspect of a videogame when it comes to deciding whether or not to play it.

Personally, if I were one of the victims of the horse kick in that AOC video that was linked, I would have taken it in stride and probably even be amused by the whole thing. Others, like you, would have been frustrated. The main differentiator at work here, what separates you and I in this respect, is that I am able to process that incident as inconsequential; I wouldn't take it seriously because it is, after all, only a game, a frugal diversion. Ironically, it is this very mindset you proposed people who want "MOAR immersion" to take on when approaching video games.

I think immersion is the single most under-developed aspect of MMOs. As continuously evolving virtual environments, they have the potential to become the kind of playgrounds whose characteristics so accurately reflect real-world dynamics that plunging into them would be a nigh-irresistible compulsion, one whose draw would be so powerful and consuming so as to make other entertainment offerings (film, music, books etc...) seem viable, but ultimately archaic, alternatives.

Videogames are the future. And within its various sub-genres, the MMO stands out as being, far and away, the one with the most (up until now, ludicrously squandered) potential.

And all of this gains us...immersion for Machine-Elf while shopping at the GTN. I'm sure they'll get right on it.

Fixed that for you.

With regards to the GTN, a Jedi Knight, Sith Lord or what have you hanging out at the mall shopping and people watching has already broken any sense of immersion. Would need to add sweat pants, slippers, Guns N' Roses t-shirts and shopping carts to get the full Wal-Mart experience.

Padawan: "Master I am not feeling like I am intimidating enough."

Master: "Go to the mall and buy yourself a Revan's mask ... and pick me up some Slim-Jims while you're at it."

Padawan: "But I have no credits, Master."

Master: "Go kill some animals, many many animals. Credits magically arise from them when they die."

Padwawn: "Thank you, Master."

Granted if I thought player and NPC collision detection was even remotely feasible I wouldn't be giving the immersion advocates such a hard time. Even if collision detection only occurred at the GTN you would have to wait in line to use the GTN unless you are on a particularly low population server. In real life shopping in public areas entails lines. I'm not particularly interested in that sort of realism/immersion.

I appreciate that, but you must also take into account the many other people who see immersion as one of the—if not THE—most important aspect of a videogame when it comes to deciding whether or not to play it.

 

Personally, if I were one of the victims of the horse kick in that AOC video that was linked, I would have taken it in stride and probably even be amused by the whole thing. Others, like you, would have been frustrated. The main differentiator at work here, what separates you and I in this respect, is that I am able to process that incident as inconsequential; I wouldn't take it seriously because it is, after all, only a game, a frugal diversion. Ironically, it is this very mindset you proposed people who want "MOAR immersion" to take on when approaching video games.

 

I think immersion is the single most under-developed aspect of MMOs. As continuously evolving virtual environments, they have the potential to become the kind of playgrounds whose characteristics so accurately reflect real-world dynamics that plunging into them would be a nigh-irresistible compulsion, one whose draw would be so powerful and consuming so as to make other entertainment offerings (film, music, books etc...) seem viable, but ultimately archaic, alternatives.

 

Videogames are the future. And within its various sub-genres, the MMO stands out as being, far and away, the one with the most (up until now, ludicrously squandered) potential.

It's not very immersive that when I die I can just get resurrected at will. It's not immersive that my character never goes to the bathroom, EVER. That has to be bad for the bladder. It's not immersive that I gain strength from upgrading my pants instead of working out or honing my skills. It's not immersive that random dogs and other creatures drop said pants. It's not very immersive that I never have to reload my weapons or buy new ammunition. It's not very immersive that NPCs never do anything but the same thing over and over (or just stand there). It's not very immersive that I can kill an enemy only for them to reappear a few minutes later. It's not very immersive that my character has never eaten anything in all of the time I have had them.

You're willing to accept all of this, but collision detection is where you draw the line?

Now if you'll excuse me, my trooper has an appointment with the optometrist.

Even though I don't see collision detection as feasible, there are some minor visual oddities that bug me enough that I wouldn't mind seeing them fixed, but they don't have spiralling ramifications to the rest of the game.

One example is that companions turn their shoulders rather than their waists to look at you. Try turning your shoulders without turning your waist and see how well that works. I imagine the person who thought this up was thinking it would be a lot more realistic than the companion spinning in place to look at you. It just wasn't implemented well. The programmer appears to have been lacking somewhat in his/her grasp of human(oid) physiology.

An example perhaps a bit more related to the OP's concern is the placement of objects/entities when spawned by the character. Activate a mail droid while the companion is out and the mail droid may spawn right on top of the companion. If you don't move and activate a repair droid it will definitely spawn right on top of the mail droid. It's minor, but spawn location for this stuff could be smarter while not having spiralling effects on the rest of the game.

Which brings up another issue with collision detection. If collision detection was implemented in characters and NPCs, would it also need to include pets and spawned items like mail droids, repair droids, and skill trainers? How would that work? If you are literally stuck in the middle of a crowd of 100 characters all compacted together and try to spawn your mail droid to pass the time mailing stuff until people get out of the way so you can get to your raid, where would it spawn? On the outside of the crowd somewhere?

It's not very immersive that when I die I can just get resurrected at will. It's not immersive that my character never goes to the bathroom, EVER. That has to be bad for the bladder. It's not immersive that I gain strength from upgrading my pants instead of working out or honing my skills. It's not immersive that random dogs and other creatures drop said pants. It's not very immersive that I never have to reload my weapons or buy new ammunition. It's not very immersive that NPCs never do anything but the same thing over and over (or just stand there). It's not very immersive that I can kill an enemy only for them to reappear a few minutes later. It's not very immersive that my character has never eaten anything in all of the time I have had them.

 

You're willing to accept all of this, but collision detection is where you draw the line?

 

Now if you'll excuse me, my trooper has an appointment with the optometrist.

I never said collision-detection was where I drew the line, I simply think that it's one in a list of many immersion-breakers (some of which include examples you yourself listed) that could be done away with for game's benefit:

- Dying and resurrecting at will is an age-old convention of videogames. It doesn't exactly stand out like a sore thumb because we are in a sense "programmed" to accept it as part and parcel of our gameplay experiences.

- You were probably being tongue-in-cheek with your bathroom breaks example, but just in case: the absence of expeditions to the toilet in-game raise no more questions re: its realism, than the absence of a scene with Han Solo taking a wee-break did for audiences in the context of the films. Toilet breaks are the kind of thing that don’t exactly gel well with Star Wars’ tone, and would better fit a real-life simulator (a la Sims) than a game like SWTOR. Their absence can be easily integrated by even the most anal-retentive, detail oriented player with a simple mental exercise via which the assumption is made that they simply take place in the space between cutscenes and the in-game action. Now, is the fact that bathroom stalls of any kind are not to be seen anywhere in the galaxy somewhat conspicuous? Maybe. And I’m sure I don’t have to tell you how this could be fixed.

- Gear not falling in line with the stat increases you’d expect, however, is an entirely different matter. You’re absolutely right, the way stats are allocated to pieces of equipment in the game seem to be completely devoid of any rhyme or reason, and this shouldn’t be so. It could be fixed, sure, but at this late stage of the game I’m not keen on proposing a change that would require the developers to do an inordinate amount of work for such little benefit.

In case you’re wondering though, how could it be fixed? Easy. Associate each type of gear with the specific stat you’d naturally expect for them to improve, as should have been done from the start: ocular implants and visors improve Aim, gloves improve Strength, chest-pieces improve Endurance, etc...

- Random animals dropping gear pieces—and worse yet, credits—is pretty stupid, I agree. The items you get as rewards for killing them should be something completely different... perhaps biochem related? Or foodstuffs that would provide combat/experience boosts. In any case, their skins alone should have enough of a resale value to supplant the need of collecting credits from their stomach in addition to the pelts proper. I don’t know, there are a number of ways in which this problem could be circumvented. You think of some while I take a real-life bathroom break

Okay, back.

- Characters not eating. You’d think I’d use the same argument I did for the bathroom breaks here, but I actually think it’d be great to see an eating feature in this game. Drinking already exists (even if it is extremely underused), so why the heck not?

In fact, I’d even love to see sleeping in the game! The other day I was reading an article that said World of Warcraft had included, back in its germinative Beta state, a feature that involved characters having to sleep in order to counteract the stumbling block provided by an experience system that saw diminishing returns, and even negative gains, the more hours were played continuously. I’m shocked it wasn’t reimplemented after all those news bits about players dying from uninterrupted WOW sessions broke out, but the fact is it didn't, and they eventually buckled to player demand, doing away with it by the time the game hit live. I’d love to see it in SWTOR though, as it would provide a mechanism to—not only avoid needless tragedies from taking place—but also, counteract that whole “I’m-better-at-this-game-than-you-because-I-have-more-free-time-to-waste” element of the gameplay.

I appreciate that, but you must also take into account the many other people who see immersion as one of the—if not THE—most important aspect of a videogame when it comes to deciding whether or not to play it.

 

Personally, if I were one of the victims of the horse kick in that AOC video that was linked, I would have taken it in stride and probably even be amused by the whole thing. Others, like you, would have been frustrated. The main differentiator at work here, what separates you and I in this respect, is that I am able to process that incident as inconsequential; I wouldn't take it seriously because it is, after all, only a game, a frugal diversion. Ironically, it is this very mindset you proposed people who want "MOAR immersion" to take on when approaching video games.

 

I think immersion is the single most under-developed aspect of MMOs. As continuously evolving virtual environments, they have the potential to become the kind of playgrounds whose characteristics so accurately reflect real-world dynamics that plunging into them would be a nigh-irresistible compulsion, one whose draw would be so powerful and consuming so as to make other entertainment offerings (film, music, books etc...) seem viable, but ultimately archaic, alternatives.

 

Videogames are the future. And within its various sub-genres, the MMO stands out as being, far and away, the one with the most (up until now, ludicrously squandered) potential.

Let's be generous and assume that there is a 50-50 split in the population about the debate. Team Machine-Elf wants clipping. Team Everyone Else doesn't. So you are telling us that the devs need to improve your gameplay, because you said so, despite the fact that Team Everyone Else doesn't want it? Assuming a 50-50 split, this is a losing situation for the devs. They would spend God knows how long implementing the system just to have more people complaining.

Also, just because you can handle being griefed for the sake of immersion doesn't mean everyone wants to be. There is enough griefing in this game without all the 12 year olds being able to block doorways to important/quest areas with their speeder and go afk, clicking every five minutes to stay logged in.

Age of Conan has it. It resulted in some interesting griefing as high level players would block narrow bridges on their mounts making it impossible for others to pass without fighting them.

This is also a problem in DCUO in the safehouses. I'm actually glad ToR doesn't have it.

Oh. Those times. Which never happen.

No but seriously, if they do happen, simple fix: change the pathways.

This must be your first MMO, Hi, I will be your guide. I have played MMOs with collision detection, and yes, that -does- happen, quite frequently. I've been a part of it too (because it's fun) You block off banks, quest givers, auctions, merchants, taxis! taxi is a fun one.

It would, it will, it does happen.

This must be your first MMO, Hi, I will be your guide. I have played MMOs with collision detection, and yes, that -does- happen, quite frequently. I've been a part of it too (because it's fun) You block off banks, quest givers, auctions, merchants, taxis! taxi is a fun one.

 

It would, it will, it does happen.

I was referring to NPCs standing in the way of players.

As for your taxi-point example, simple fix for that: have the game automatically disable speeders whenever in close proximity of taxi-points.

Same applies for areas with banks, GTMs, etc...

I mean, it isn't rocket-science, right? Simply restrict the use of speeders in those areas. This already happens in certain locations of the game anyway, so it seems like a fairly obvious workaround.

Blocking of quest givers: you'd need about ten different players to be able to encircle an NPC character completely, so good luck convincing your guildmates to waste their time getting together just so they can grief some random dude for all of ten seconds before he shrugs it off and moves on to the next quest giver. What's more, I'm not even sure it could be done in the first place, as the distance from which players can activate quests by clicking on NPCs is substantial enough to make the entire exercise futile.

I was referring to NPCs standing in the way of players.

As for your taxi-point example, simple fix for that: have the game automatically disable speeders when in close proximity of taxi-points.

 

Same applies for areas with banks, GTMs, etc...

 

I mean, it isn't rocket-science, right? Simply restrict the use of speeders in those areas. This already happens in certain locations of the game anyway, so it seems like a fairly obvious workaround.

 

Blocking of quest givers: you'd need about ten different characters to be able to encircle an NPC character completely, so good luck convincing your guildmates to waste their time getting together just so they can grief some random dude for all of ten seconds before he shrugs it off and moves on to the next quest giver. What's more, I'm not even sure it could be done in the first place, as the distance from which players can activate quests by clicking on NPCs is substantial enough to possibly make the entire exercise futile.

Yeah...lol Disabling speeders would do nothing. People would would position toons there, who CARES about speeders? That's beyond the point. Just characters themselves will do it. I could block off the Gtn on an entire fleet no problem. You'd never get to use it, all day.

Also...again, I get this must be your first MMO...but you -really- don't know the people who play MMOs. A lot of the higher end players...would have a grand ol time getting an -entire- guild of 30-50 people to do stuff like this, during raid lock outs...why? because it's fun. We have nothing else to do.

Yeah...lol Disabling speeders would do nothing. People would would position toons there, who CARES about speeders? That's beyond the point. Just characters themselves will do it. I could block off the Gtn on an entire fleet no problem. You'd never get to use it, all day.

 

Also...again, I get this must be your first MMO...but you -really- don't know the people who play MMOs. A lot of the higher end players...would have a grand ol time getting an -entire- guild of 30-50 people to do stuff like this, during raid lock outs...why? because it's fun. We have nothing else to do.

The radius of the field within which a player can interact with the GTM terminals is practically 360°; so, sorry but, no, you wouldn't be able to block one without the aid of one massive mount, at the very least.

Finally, even if one were to make the (wild) assumption that gathering 30-50 people to engage in these kinds of high-jinks is as commonplace an occurrence as you claim it is, why are you so against it when you yourself claim it to be so fun?

The radius of the field within which a player can interact with the GTM terminals is practically 360°; so, sorry but, no, you wouldn't be able to block one without the aid of of at least one massive mount.

 

Even making the (wild) assumption that gathering 30-50 people to engage in these kinds of high-jinks is as commonplace an occurrence as you claim it is, why are you so against it when you yourself claim it to be so fun?

Didn't think this would have to be explained, but yes, it is 360. That's why you make a circle around something. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle And, as I say it being fun...it IS great fun!...to do it. It -sucks- to have it done to you. This is why it's for the greater good, to not have it in game. Not to mention the raid problems it can have.

Now, while other games that had this, you could just ignore the people and be able to walk through them...you really shouldn't have to.

...

Several people have explained it to you. I am going to also guess that you cared enough about the subject that you are championing for to google and research it to gain some knowledge of your own. After all of that it is abundantly clear that you still know very little about the subject and are either consciously ignoring information just so that you can argue, you are trolling or some combination of factors of the two.

Several people have explained it to you. I am going to also guess that you cared enough about the subject that you are championing for to google and research it to gain some knowledge of your own. After all of that it is abundantly clear that you still know very little about the subject and are either consciously ignoring information just so that you can argue, you are trolling or some combination of factors of the two.

I haven't googled or researched it at all. Any thoughts I've shared about the subject matter surfaced only as the result of my making logical assumptions based on what has been relayed to me in this thread. And so far the only argument against collision-detection that could be seen as carrying any kind of weight has been the performance-issues it tends to induce. Granted, this issue alone can provide sufficient basis for some players to be against it on principle; but barring that, I can see no feasible reason for it not to be included. In other words, if they ever get around the performance problems it creates (and there must be a way, since Age of Conan has been able to do so) I'd go as far as saying it's an essential inclusion to the game.

Collision detection between player characters should never ever happen. It was bad in STO's beta too, where you have a dozen players cramped in a small office of the admiral dude, and can't get near him because you couldn't walk though any other player. And this is just the unintentional problems with it. There is also the intentional grielfing...

Between players and NPCs however is a different story. I think quest NPCs and vendors should be impassable so that players can't stand in them.