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George Zoeller: PVP vs PVE Balance


subrosian

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In your interview you said Operatives are within 5% of Maras, was that in reference to PVP? It can't possibly be in reference to PVE due to DPS downtime and abilities not functioning (stealth). Is there a plan to address the significant PVE DPS loss of the Conc Nerf that was, to the best of our knowledge, entirely a PVP balance nerf? Edited by subrosian
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In your interview you said Operatives are within 5% of Maras, was that in reference to PVP? It can't possibly be in reference to PVE due to DPS downtime and abilities not functioning (stealth). Is there a plan to address the significant PVE DPS loss of the Conc Nerf that was, to the best of our knowledge, entirely a PVP balance nerf?

 

Just wait for 1.2 and Combat Parsing to work reliably and you'll have your answer.

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I know this isn't an answer to your question at all, but really, I just don't get why games insist on having stealth classes. They are "literally" impossible to balance across both PvE and PvP (As a lesser but still disappointing element, they also usually encourage ganking behaviour "Wait till they've aggroed a group of mobs" in open world PvP too).

 

If a class has stealth and needs to utilise it in PvP to match up to other classes, they will be at a distinct disadvantage in PvE content where Boss fights last 5+ minutes and you can only enter stealth when the cooldown on you Hide-in-plain-sight type skill is available.

 

If a class has stealth but does comparable damage to DPS classes in PvE, they become monsters in PvP, stealthing in on targets and destroying them because they always get the tactical advantage of first hit, as well as having comparable Damage output.

 

It's the same in other situations. CC classes also get a raw deal. You have more CC, you get less damage to compensate else you'd be overpowered in PvP. But because you have less damage, you're sub-par for boss fights, because they're pretty much all immune to any CC you can throw at them.

 

Same applies for classes that are superior at AoE and inferior at ST damage. I laugh at what's happening with Sages/Sorcs (because if I didn't, I'd cry). They are an "AoE dps and CC class". They already have poor single target burst because of their CC, and now they'll be losing their better AoE functionality (which, because their ST is SO poor, was also arguably the best ST damage too).

 

The only way I've seen it even attempted to be balance in other games it to have a stance that locks out one feature entirely (such as stealth) and buffs the damage output, intended to fix the PvE shortcomings.

 

But that's the best fix there is. When they "finally" get around to Dual/Multi-spec, having the option to go for a one DPS spec for PvE and a Stealth spec for PvP (in the case of stealth classes) is the only other thing I can think of to circumvent it. And that says it all... the fact that you have to "circumvent" a problem instead of being able to make it work.

Edited by Tyrias
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it's not hard to balance at all. the mistake that developers often do is give stealth clases obscene burst.

 

they should have really good sustained damage instead of burst, with their opener being purely a non-damage stun.

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Just wait for 1.2 and Combat Parsing to work reliably and you'll have your answer.

 

I have an extensive analysis background, I already know for a fact that conc Operatives are 30% behind in DPS. I'm asking George to justify that without the worthless "well you can clear the content... right?"

 

Give Conc OPs a unique stacking debuff that only works in PVE that increases our DPS by 30%. It's obviously possible because taunts work differently in PVP than PVE. It is bug fixing as far as I'm concerned, since stealth does not work right in raids.

Edited by subrosian
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I have an extensive analysis background, I already know for a fact that conc Operatives are 30% behind in DPS. I'm asking George to justify that without the worthless "well you can clear the content... right?"

 

Give Conc OPs a unique stacking debuff that only works in PVE that increases our DPS by 30%. It's obviously possible because taunts work differently in PVP than PVE. It is bug fixing as far as I'm concerned, since stealth does not work right in raids.

 

Saying "I'm an expert" does not make you an expert, especially when youve yet to provide any data to backup your numbers. Lets have a look at that data you must have gotten this "30%" number from.

Edited by Achromatis
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I have an extensive analysis background, I already know for a fact that conc Operatives are 30% behind in DPS. I'm asking George to justify that without the worthless "well you can clear the content... right?"

 

Give Conc OPs a unique stacking debuff that only works in PVE that increases our DPS by 30%. It's obviously possible because taunts work differently in PVP than PVE. It is bug fixing as far as I'm concerned, since stealth does not work right in raids.

 

First off the guy above me is 100% correct claiming you're an expert does not make it true.

 

Secondly if you were an expert you'd know that it's impossible for them to make a buff applicable only to PvE coding doesn't work like that

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First off the guy above me is 100% correct claiming you're an expert does not make it true.

 

Secondly if you were an expert you'd know that it's impossible for them to make a buff applicable only to PvE coding doesn't work like that

 

My data comes from proprietary analysis software my group developed during our pro MTG years, it's not useable by anyone without a post-graduate mathematics background. We don't show our software to non-members, and we're all currently in retirement. If we do start up again, that may change.

 

And the coding absolutely does work that way. Taunt generates aggro in PVE. In PVP it provides a damage debuff. The game can flag abilities to not affect players already, it would be easy to make a debuff that did not affect players, so as to make our PVE damage higher without impacting PVP

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Secondly if you were an expert you'd know that it's impossible for them to make a buff applicable only to PvE coding doesn't work like that

 

Ummm? Really?

 

Because we already have a flag that designates people as engaged in combat with another player. If the devs couldn't figure out how to make a buff, or even ability changes, based on whether a player was in PvE or PVP, then I don't think I want them developing an MMO.

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Ummm? Really?

 

Because we already have a flag that designates people as engaged in combat with another player. If the devs couldn't figure out how to make a buff, or even ability changes, based on whether a player was in PvE or PVP, then I don't think I want them developing an MMO.

 

Having abilities work differently in PvP and PvE is a "last resort" solution and should be avoided wherever possible.

 

It's poor game-design.

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My data comes from proprietary analysis software my group developed during our pro MTG years, it's not useable by anyone without a post-graduate mathematics background. We don't show our software to non-members, and we're all currently in retirement. If we do start up again, that may change.

 

And the coding absolutely does work that way. Taunt generates aggro in PVE. In PVP it provides a damage debuff. The game can flag abilities to not affect players already, it would be easy to make a debuff that did not affect players, so as to make our PVE damage higher without impacting PVP

 

What data?

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My data comes from proprietary analysis software my group developed during our pro MTG years, it's not useable by anyone without a post-graduate mathematics background. We don't show our software to non-members, and we're all currently in retirement. If we do start up again, that may change.

 

And the coding absolutely does work that way. Taunt generates aggro in PVE. In PVP it provides a damage debuff. The game can flag abilities to not affect players already, it would be easy to make a debuff that did not affect players, so as to make our PVE damage higher without impacting PVP

 

Oh wow. Come on. This post just reeks of so much Bantha poodoo.

 

Nobody is asking for access to your vaunted "proprietary software." They just want to see your numbers. Any numbers. So post them to Google docs.

 

In other words: Put up or shut up.

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I too am of the point of view that the stealth mechanics are at the root of the problem. Even if one considers the PvP area only.

 

In PvP it is extremely difficult to counter stealthed enemies. It would be easier if the BH/Trooper's stealth scan were themselves stealthed. But as is, the stealthy toon simply waits out the scan or goes around it. The power and lack of countermeasures to stealth are the direct reason why combat post stealth got nerfed. If there was some risk to stealth one could justify higher post stealth combat damage. For example - if toons in stealth had a debuff (for ex. all damage taken increased by 10% while in stealth and for 6 sec afterwards), I think it would be entirely reasonable to increase their post stealth damage attacks by 10% - again IF there was a reasonable chance they could be detected.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Having abilities work differently in PvP and PvE is a "last resort" solution and should be avoided wherever possible.

 

It's poor game-design.

 

funny because guild wars seemed to make this work flawlessly. you must be ignorant to not see the benefits in auto changing skills to be PVP only.

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The data comes from 50s who are actually on the pts right now in comparable gear doing combat logs and then uploading them into programs that calculates DPS... It's like recount for you people who've played wow.

 

 

this data showing optimal and near perfect rotations are the basis for all this data. There was a list of the dps compared to all the other classes and Ahnil marauders were at 1500 where as lethality/concealment operatives were at 1200-1250 with Deception sins being the lowest at 1150

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I think what ticks the community off as a whole, is the fact that even tho these numbers are being brought to the attention of the developers, they have put up a basic "LTP NOOB" attitude..

 

For example, at PAX EAST just this past weekend, this was a response from one of the developers regarding the change to backstab, the operatives primary behind the target move.

 

In 1.2, the backstab cooldown from 9s to 12s - will you buff the damage to compensate for time? ANSWER: The new trees are very close to other trees and are able to competivite DPS. A lot of the changes in the tree are shuffled around, and the end results are very comprable to what we had before.

 

 

What we are seeing with these dps logs from Ambient *a guild that has cleared all the nightmare content currently*, and what they are telling us is not matching up.

 

Your a raid leader, and you have 4 dps slots, based on that list, who brings the most to the raid in terms of utility and damage and you had to pick 2 ranged and 2 melee..

 

Here's the data for those too lazy to go to the website.

Annhilation Marauder ~1500

 

Madness Sorcerer ~1400

Vengeance Juggernaut ~1350

_ Powertech ~1350

 

Marksman Sniper ~1300

 

Mercenary ~1250 (increases notably with the number of mercs in raid)

Madness Assassin ~1250

 

Lethality Sniper ~1200

Lighning sorcerer ~1200

Lethality Operative ~1200

 

Deception Assassin ~1150

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I'm not sure about subrosian's software, one way or another, but I will say that from the posts of his I've read (more than a few) he generally knows what he's talking about and doesn't bother to post unless he does.

 

30% does seem a bit high, but it could also be assuming things like bona fortuna for all test subjects. Certain classes have a very steep level of difficulty in use, and of those classes, some have better returns on "mastery" of that difficulty than others. (e.g. class A does 1000 DPS at low mastery level and is difficult to master. "fully" mastered it is capable of 1400 DPS. Class B does 900 DPS at low mastery levels and does 1200 DPS "fully" mastered, again with a sharply inclined learning curve.)

 

Without a peek at the data, 30% would be difficult to agree with for me, but I think it's clear that something needs to change, "5%" is an inaccurate statement in practical use (i.e. play vs. beating on a stationary dummy with no mechanics that halt damage output as standard PvE and PvP contain) and that while the developers may not be maliciously spreading misinformation, they may not have the best handle on how certain parts of their game actually work.

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Yea analyzing the network traffic (tcpdump) should be doable if its not encrypted and I know of no games that use encryption (too much overhead). Not saying its working but if you cant analyze the data already out there you shouldnt be talking here.

 

Thanks for putting dummy numbers in here I hadnt seen that before. Can you give url for reference?

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So, an update, I gave up on playing my Operative. It has a role as a healer, but that's not a role I want to play. I'm playing a Marauder right now, because any nerf in the short term to Marauders is going to be in the form of knocking down their survivability, which won't remove them from raids.

 

Operatives won't get a buff in the short term because as long as stealth is an integral part of their gameplay, people will rage at the Stealth + Stun combination and they will not be allowed to have the DPS to translate that into a kill.

 

Long term, I hope the class is fixed. As is, it's simply not enjoyable to play in a raiding environment. The fact that your single target damage, especially in burst scenarios, is so low, and that stealth plays so little a role in raiding, just combines to make it "meh". Until the PVE and PVP aspects of the game are split apart more firmly (including ability damage - why can't an attack do X damage to a boss but Y damage to a player?) we're going to be a class in poor shape

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