If Anakin had chosen Windu, Palpatine would have killed them both in an instant and moved on.

^Yepp

Any link to this commentary? I tried youtube but came up empty.

you play your dvd with commentary on around the windu duel.

Sorry, but he isn't, Sidious was a powerful force user, yet he stuck to using the lightsaber alone, dispatched the other 3-4? Jedi Masters withins of each other and throughout the fight, he brought visions of Anakin's Wife in labor, though it looked like she was dying, it was a lot of deception and he was feigning defeat with Windu, like Luke was with the Emperor ROTJ.

 

In the end Sidious was holding back, I never understand how people can't see that...

Wrong.

"This sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try and destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber... " LUCAS

"These close up shots where Palpatine is getting the force lightning reflected back and he’s getting zapped, and the strain of all this exertion is what’s transforming him into the Emperor that we see later in Return of the Jedi..."

To be honest, its both.

Sidious threw the duel, but windu would have killed him...

Sidious engaged with a saber to lure anakin to the darkside, yes, and windu bested him easily, through Vapaad and his sheer knowledge of any saber forms Sidious could use.

However i believe Sidious realised, when he was pressed onto his viewing window, that he really could have gone to far, and might lose.

So in a last ditch attempt he tried to kill windu with his Force Lightning, and Windu would have truly won, and sidious' gamble failed, had Vader not intervened.

you play your dvd with commentary on around the windu duel.

I don't have DVD's of the PT.

Palpatin threw his duel just to bring Anakin to the dark side, he made himself look weak and Windu as evil powerful Jedi who wants to kill at all cost ...

wrong Palpatine did not threw the fight

To be honest, its both.

Sidious threw the duel, but windu would have killed him...

 

Sidious engaged with a saber to lure anakin to the darkside, yes, and windu bested him easily, through Vapaad and his sheer knowledge of any saber forms Sidious could use.

However i believe Sidious realised, when he was pressed onto his viewing window, that he really could have gone to far, and might lose.

So in a last ditch attempt he tried to kill windu with his Force Lightning, and Windu would have truly won, and sidious' gamble failed, had Vader not intervened.

This, Sideous didn't completely threw the duel to lure his future apprentice, it was a gamble and you can see this by palpatine having a fried face after the duel.

Little from column A, little from column B.

The way I always saw it- Sidious's *plan* was certainly "Toy with Mace, hold back a bit to give myself the chance for Anakin to see Windu attacking a helpless old man and fall to the dark side by protecting me".

*But*, as a certain farm-boy later called Sidious out on "your over-confidence is your weakness".

I doubt Sidious planned on getting a faceful of his own lightning thanks to Windu's Vaapad, and losing his ability to hide Dark Side corruption (or being burned, take your pick, doesn't really matter *which* the damage was), for instance.

Pulling your punches and holding back when engaging a very powerful opponent is a very dangerous thing to do, and I suspect Sidious had miscalculated.

In other words- yes, things ended up more or less how he wanted, apart from the disfigurement. Yes, if Sidious had gone full out he could probably have killed Windu on his own sooner- *but*, as a result of his over-confidence- and under-estimation of Windu's skills in combat, Sidious *was* losing for real, rather than just pretending to lose, at the time Anakin showed up and blundered in.

That's my interpretation, at least. Doesn't necessarily have to be *right*.

Little from column A, little from column B.

 

The way I always saw it- Sidious's *plan* was certainly "Toy with Mace, hold back a bit to give myself the chance for Anakin to see Windu attacking a helpless old man and fall to the dark side by protecting me".

 

*But*, as a certain farm-boy later called Sidious out on "your over-confidence is your weakness".

 

I doubt Sidious planned on getting a faceful of his own lightning thanks to Windu's Vaapad, and losing his ability to hide Dark Side corruption (or being burned, take your pick, doesn't really matter *which* the damage was), for instance.

 

Pulling your punches and holding back when engaging a very powerful opponent is a very dangerous thing to do, and I suspect Sidious had miscalculated.

 

In other words- yes, things ended up more or less how he wanted, apart from the disfigurement. Yes, if Sidious had gone full out he could probably have killed Windu on his own sooner- *but*, as a result of his over-confidence- and under-estimation of Windu's skills in combat, Sidious *was* losing for real, rather than just pretending to lose, at the time Anakin showed up and blundered in.

 

That's my interpretation, at least. Doesn't necessarily have to be *right*.

The two were dueling at an impass, neither of them were able to outdo the other. It wasn't until the window bit, where Sidious was thrown back(thanks to the ledge, and Windu drawing on the fear coming from Anakin who was coming in, thus being able to overpower Palpatine.)

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.

Impasse.

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Then moving over to the window bit..

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge. Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop. Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete. Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half.

One piece flipped back in through the cut-open window. The other tumbled from opening fingers, bounced on the ledge, and fell through the rain toward the distant alleys below.

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Now here...there is the word FEAR that is brought up, Palpatine then stops his speed and grips the ledge to keep from falling.

"For all your power, you are no Jedi. All you are, my lord," Mace said evenly, staring past his blade, "is under arrest."

"Do you see, Anakin? Do you?" Palpatine's voice once again had the broken cadence of a frightened old man's. "Didn't I warn you of the Jedi and their treason?"

"Save your twisted words, my lord. There are no politicians here. The Sith will never regain control of the Republic. It's over. You've lost." Mace leveled his blade. "You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear."

Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons.

"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"

Ok so we got it covered, they were dueling at an impass. Then to the window, that is where Sidious made his move(the part about gripping on the ledge) and where Mace overpowered him by using the fear that was coming from Anakin.

Now moving on...Sidious could have killed Windu with his lighting..

Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

 

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

 

This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade.

 

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Now here this makes sense, because even though in the novel he doesn't state the line unlike in the movie, as soon as Anakin cut off Windu's hand...Palpatine goes from..

"I...I'm weak...I can't..."

to

"POWER! UNLIMITED POWER!"

Which suggests, that the lighting wasn't harming Sidious at all. He was just merely faking to show Anakin that Mace was the evil one, and he was helpless to stop him.

If going by the novel, Palpatine just gets back up on his feet(like he wasn't weak) and blasts Windu away.

"I need him alive!" Skywalker shouted. "I need him to save Padme!"

Mace thought blankly, Why? And moved his lightsaber toward the fallen Chancellor. Before he could follow through on his stroke, a sudden arc of blue plasma sheared through his wrist and his hand tumbled away with his lightsaber still in it and Palpatine roared back to his feet and lightning speared from the Sith Lord's hands and without his blade to catch it, the power of Palpatine's hate struck him full-on.

He had been so intent on Palpatine's shatterpoint that he'd never thought to look for Anakin's. Dark lightning blasted away his universe. He fell forever.

So was Mace able to beat Palpatine in a duel? Yes, Was it under his own power? No.

The two were dueling at an impass, neither of them were able to outdo the other. It wasn't until the window bit, where Sidious was thrown back(thanks to the ledge, and Windu drawing on the fear coming from Anakin who was coming in, thus being able to overpower Palpatine.)

 

 

 

Then moving over to the window bit..

 

 

 

Now here...there is the word FEAR that is brought up, Palpatine then stops his speed and grips the ledge to keep from falling.

 

]

 

Ok so we got it covered, they were dueling at an impass. Then to the window, that is where Sidious made his move(the part about gripping on the ledge) and where Mace overpowered him by using the fear that was coming from Anakin.

 

Now moving on...Sidious could have killed Windu with his lighting..

 

Now here this makes sense, because even though in the novel he doesn't state the line unlike in the movie, as soon as Anakin cut off Windu's hand...Palpatine goes from..

 

"I...I'm weak...I can't..."

 

to

"POWER! UNLIMITED POWER!"

 

Which suggests, that the lighting wasn't harming Sidious at all. He was just merely faking to show Anakin that Mace was the evil one, and he was helpless to stop him.

 

If going by the novel, Palpatine just gets back up on his feet(like he wasn't weak) and blasts Windu away.

So was Mace able to beat Palpatine in a duel? Yes, Was it under his own power? No.

except pretty much most of this completely contradicts what lucas has said. Lucas>Novel.

"This sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try and destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber... "

"These close up shots where Palpatine is getting the force lightning reflected back and he’s getting zapped, and the strain of all this exertion is what’s transforming him into the Emperor that we see later in Return of the Jedi..."

Made a really really long post, deleted it, just gonna post the quick version.

Sidious could of killed Mace in the initial burst that killed two other jedi. He didn't to play with him and show off for Anakin. BUT he underestimated him and Mace legitimately beat him in a lightsaber duel. Lightsaber being important word there. Sidious was down but not out, and Mace probably could of made the killing blow had he not mistaken Anakin's fear for Sidious and hesitated, not sure how I feel about that so I'll just say probably. (edit: to clarify, if Mace had gone straight for the killing blow in the milliseconds after destroying Sidious' lightsaber, I think it would of won the fight. He didn't though, he held back to spew some rhetoric and give Sidious a chance to surrender, something he expected him to do because the emotions he felt from Anakin were mistaken as Sidious's. That hesitation was the turning point of the fight, the critical error that cost him his life)

That hesitation gave Sidious an opening to use powers he was better at then simple sword play, his sorcery, aka **** like lightning. This is where the book and movie diverge in my view. In the book, they seem equally matched, both sides pushing each other to the brink, and Sidious feigns surrender to trick Anakin to help him win once and for all cause he just can't quite do it himself without risking Mace taking Sidious down with him, while also serving the originally intended goal of making him chose sides. Sidious got what he wanted in the end but he came much closer to defeat then he expected, Mace was his equal in head to head combat, something he didn't expect when he allowed Mace to get a foot in at the start. Perhaps if he did know he would of chosen another Jedi to toy with, like Fisto. However! In the movie, Sidious seems to not be all that phased by the lightning reflection, it seems he could of won there if he really tried, thus the surrender was purely an act to make Anakin chose sides overall and the fight of the moment was already essentially over, Sidious had already won on his own. Sooooo... I prefer the former over the ladder, the interpretation I got from the book. I prefer Sidious having an equal, it makes him a more interesting character rather then some invincible god-tier OP bastard. It also does right by Mace, who I think deserves to come that close to victory since he's the only Jedi that didn't have his head stuck up his ***.

The tl;dr version: Sidious could "sucker punch" anyone, including Mace, and win that way. In a fair fight though, Mace was better at sword play. The true debate is whether or not their force play is equal or in Sidious' favor. The movie makes it seem to be in Sidious' favour quite clearly, but the book is open enough to either being true.

Going by the book, I prefer thinking they were equal and that Anakin made a real choice in who he helped. This post isn't the quick version anymore I guess.

except pretty much most of this completely contradicts what lucas has said. Lucas>Novel.

 

"This sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try and destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber... "

 

"These close up shots where Palpatine is getting the force lightning reflected back and he’s getting zapped, and the strain of all this exertion is what’s transforming him into the Emperor that we see later in Return of the Jedi..."

That doesn't contradict anything, because Lucas doesn't say how Mace overpowers Sidious all he says is that he overpowers him. Not to mention, Lucas did make edits to the novel, the novels(movie novels) are as much as G-canon as the movies are. Also you cut out part of the quote...

""Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

This: http://www4.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Ian+McDiarmid+60th+Annual+Tony+Awards+Radio+BwsRVrv0VvXx.jpg

Did not beat this: http://api.ning.com/files/p-1A2h43WMANskp9kX*gU30cNXGFoNs-liTf4vVo3M*LwwXI8bArp5kI58ZCw1ez8lssOlV*JWWxJFrNfJ30vSDlP40hQPtK/quizjackson.jpg

That doesn't contradict anything, because Lucas doesn't say how Mace overpowers Sidious all he says is that he overpowers him. Not to mention, Lucas did make edits to the novel, the novels(movie novels) are as much as G-canon as the movies are. Also you cut out part of the quote...

You said Sidious couldve destroyed windu with lightning anytime he wanted which is wrong.

And yes that bit of the quote is irrelevant, since he knew he was losing he was playing up for Anakin.

You said Sidious couldve destroyed windu with lightning anytime he wanted which is wrong.

 

And yes that bit of the quote is irrelevant, since he knew he was losing he was playing up for Anakin.

No its right, he was bending Mace's blade back to him and Mace had no strength left to fight. Also I didn't say anytime in that bit about the lighting, just put that he could have.

The two were dueling at an impass, neither of them were able to outdo the other. It wasn't until the window bit, where Sidious was thrown back(thanks to the ledge, and Windu drawing on the fear coming from Anakin who was coming in, thus being able to overpower Palpatine.)

 

Then moving over to the window bit..

 

Now here...there is the word FEAR that is brought up, Palpatine then stops his speed and grips the ledge to keep from falling.

 

Ok so we got it covered, they were dueling at an impass. Then to the window, that is where Sidious made his move(the part about gripping on the ledge) and where Mace overpowered him by using the fear that was coming from Anakin.

 

Now moving on...Sidious could have killed Windu with his lighting..

 

Now here this makes sense, because even though in the novel he doesn't state the line unlike in the movie, as soon as Anakin cut off Windu's hand...Palpatine goes from..

 

"I...I'm weak...I can't..."

to

"POWER! UNLIMITED POWER!"

 

Which suggests, that the lighting wasn't harming Sidious at all. He was just merely faking to show Anakin that Mace was the evil one, and he was helpless to stop him.

 

If going by the novel, Palpatine just gets back up on his feet(like he wasn't weak) and blasts Windu away.

Honestly, those excerpts from the novel sound like they were written by a moron. It simply makes no sense for them to form a "superconducting loop" or for there to be no "possibility of fatigue". That's just pointless and meaningless drivel, the author seems to just be blustering.

So was Mace able to beat Palpatine in a duel? Yes, Was it under his own power? No.

What does that even mean, "under his own power"? Of course it was under his own power, HE DID IT.

What does that even mean, "under his own power"? Of course it was under his own power, HE DID IT.

It was a Gamble, even if Mace had the upperhand which we see during the fight also the emperor wanted to end like he want it, and by "luck" it worked

I think it was 50/50

 

So was Mace able to beat Palpatine in a duel? Yes, Was it under his own power? No.

Mace did beat him under his own power

What does that even mean, "under his own power"? Of course it was under his own power, HE DID IT.

Mace did beat him under his own power

Vaapad worked in part in his being able to take his opponent's power and turn it against them. He also additionally started to get some more power (unknowingly) off from Anikin's fear.

So in a sense, it wasn't under his own power. He just had the ability to harness and use others'.

The two were dueling at an impass, neither of them were able to outdo the other. It wasn't until the window bit, where Sidious was thrown back(thanks to the ledge, and Windu drawing on the fear coming from Anakin who was coming in, thus being able to overpower Palpatine.)

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow

...

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge.

Sidious let him win, it was part of his plan when he knew Aniken would return and defend him, thus, making his turn to the dark side complete. There is little reason to debate this, it was obvious.

George Lucas and the ROTS novelization disagree with that assertion. So you are correct that there is little reason to debate this, you're just on the wrong side.

George Lucas and the ROTS novelization disagree with that assertion. So you are correct that there is little reason to debate this, you're just on the wrong side.

Thank you for clarifying that up, but in the movie, it does appear Sidious lost on purpose... Then again, the last 30 minutes of that movie was so rushed, I should not have used the movie to justify any lore or opinion.

Thank you for clarifying that up, but in the movie, it does appear Sidious lost on purpose... Then again, the last 30 minutes of that movie was so rushed, I should not have used the movie to justify any lore or opinion.

It didn't look like he lost on purpose to me. Sure he feigned weakness when Anakin was around, but it looked like he was trying his best to beat Windu.

He is making it up. Lucas already went into it in the DVD commentary stating Sidious was not backing down and was trying to kill Windu the entire time but couldnt.

I think the confusion exists as an example of how bad of a director George Lucas is and why there are different opinions. Not knowing what the "book" says, it is possible to depict that scene in the movie both ways. I looked at it as Sidious holding back, not using his force powers to their fullest potential, why at the end, he yelled, with confidence. "POWER, UNLIMITED POWER"

Now, if Lucas clearly stated Sidious was all out to defeat Windu, than that scene should have been so convincing Mace won and left no debate about it. The way the scene ended, than the 1 minute it took him to make Aniken a Dark Lord, it is very easy to assume Mace won because it was intended by Sidious he would win, so Aniken would take the last step to turning to the Dark Side.