Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Progression Double-Monetized in 6.0?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Progression Double-Monetized in 6.0?

RakiaTime's Avatar


RakiaTime
06.26.2019 , 11:21 AM | #71
Quote: Originally Posted by FlatTax View Post
Advantage-producing microtransactions are pay-to-win. SWTOR has them. Secondary grinds are irrelevant.

We're all subject to the impact of SWTOR's gambling products, whether we buy them or not.

6.0 looks to be more problematically monetized than SWTOR is now. I'm not asking for 'gimmies;' I'm advocating for ethics reforms.
(Woah, the golden glow of divine truth, again!)
holy flat earth anti-vax Batman, there are more conspiracy theories in here than ive seen all year

FlatTax's Avatar


FlatTax
06.26.2019 , 06:11 PM | #72
Quote: Originally Posted by robertthebard View Post
I see, playing the game is irrelevant. This is your "secondary grind" after all, since the required currencies to purchase these items in game come from playing the game as intended. That's sort of revealing, isn't it. So I logged in and played around for about 3 hours yesterday, and never once had my gameplay impacted by the loot crates being in the store. My repair droid didn't suddenly start charging more for repairs, and travel didn't suddenly quadruple in price. The perks from my Legacy didn't suddenly quadruple in price either, so loot boxes being in the store had literally 0 impact on me. It impacts you because of exactly "gimme", since you believe you're entitled to those items for free.

Again, "But I pay a sub, those items should be free to me" isn't "ethics reform", it's "gimme". Insisting that you're entitled to more than what's listed on the page as perks for your sub isn't ethics reform, in fact, I'd say that's pretty unethical; you agree to Terms and Conditions, and then insist that it's not fair, trying to manipulate the system so you can get your stuff for free.
"Are pay-pay-to-win transactions present?" is a yes or no question. The presence of secondary grinds are, in fact, irrelevant to that question.

Also, the degree to which secondary grinds are offsetting isn't a very interesting question for two reasons:
1. The bright line of monetized progression is a moral problem, regardless of degree
2. Once crossed, the creep only goes one way: toward getting FIFA'd in the dark.

We should care about principles.
(love the divine glow of all that truth!)

Oh, and gambling products: They exact an opportunity cost, whether we buy them or not. We're all stuck in an ecosystem with unethical practices. See the radiant truth above.

robertthebard's Avatar


robertthebard
06.27.2019 , 07:14 AM | #73
Quote: Originally Posted by FlatTax View Post
"Are pay-pay-to-win transactions present?" is a yes or no question. The presence of secondary grinds are, in fact, irrelevant to that question.
Stopped reading right there. What is it, exactly, you're winning if you're not playing the game? P2W mechanics do not exist, I've played games with P2W, and this isn't one of them. It's a catch phrase, meant to inspire negative emotions, but is irrelevant to this game. You be sure to let me know when the only way to obtain skills on level ups is loot crates, or when you can actually go to a page in the store to buy the end game armors, mods and enhancements. Because until then, you're getting a 2/10 on the troll meter, and that only because I'm bored and responding.

"But we have to change the meaning of the terms to fit my argument" is next, I can smell it coming a mile away, and no, we don't. As we can see from the current flurry of responses, P2W has a specific meaning, and a connotation tied to that meaning that you're trying to exploit because you don't understand, or won't accept what we've been told is the case with this new system.
Quote: Originally Posted by Transcendent View Post
Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

FlatTax's Avatar


FlatTax
06.27.2019 , 03:39 PM | #74
Quote: Originally Posted by robertthebard View Post
Stopped reading right there. What is it, exactly, you're winning if you're not playing the game? P2W mechanics do not exist, I've played games with P2W, and this isn't one of them. It's a catch phrase, meant to inspire negative emotions, but is irrelevant to this game. You be sure to let me know when the only way to obtain skills on level ups is loot crates, or when you can actually go to a page in the store to buy the end game armors, mods and enhancements. Because until then, you're getting a 2/10 on the troll meter, and that only because I'm bored and responding.

"But we have to change the meaning of the terms to fit my argument" is next, I can smell it coming a mile away, and no, we don't. As we can see from the current flurry of responses, P2W has a specific meaning, and a connotation tied to that meaning that you're trying to exploit because you don't understand, or won't accept what we've been told is the case with this new system.
I've already defined pay-to-win microtransactions, correctly.

I recommend reading the rest of the post.

robertthebard's Avatar


robertthebard
06.28.2019 , 04:21 PM | #75
Quote: Originally Posted by FlatTax View Post
I've already defined pay-to-win microtransactions, correctly.

I recommend reading the rest of the post.
When you start out with a fallacy, all conclusions drawn from it will, by definition, also be fallacies.
Quote: Originally Posted by Transcendent View Post
Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

FlatTax's Avatar


FlatTax
06.29.2019 , 08:23 PM | #76
Quote: Originally Posted by robertthebard View Post
When you start out with a fallacy, all conclusions drawn from it will, by definition, also be fallacies.
I'm astounded people will defend microtransactions that feed progression and gearing. Really, I don't get it.

robertthebard's Avatar


robertthebard
06.30.2019 , 02:29 PM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by FlatTax View Post
I'm astounded people will defend microtransactions that feed progression and gearing. Really, I don't get it.
Can you buy the crates that are awarded for ranks from the CS? No? Not P2W. Are the items coming out exclusive to the CS? No? Not P2W. Can you completely ignore the GTN and still get boosts if you want them? Yes, and you're not relying on others to buy them, since they are available, currently, from an NPC, so again, not P2W. We're not defending P2W, we're pointing out the fallacy that this game is any where near P2W.
Quote: Originally Posted by Transcendent View Post
Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

BoySaber's Avatar


BoySaber
07.01.2019 , 02:44 AM | #78
Quote: Originally Posted by robertthebard View Post
Can you buy the crates that are awarded for ranks from the CS? No? Not P2W. Are the items coming out exclusive to the CS? No? Not P2W. Can you completely ignore the GTN and still get boosts if you want them? Yes, and you're not relying on others to buy them, since they are available, currently, from an NPC, so again, not P2W. We're not defending P2W, we're pointing out the fallacy that this game is any where near P2W.
You do have to pay real money to get the crates. Galactic Command, Purple Gear, and most of group content is real money. You win against those who do not pay for that. An example if you run in a WZ level 70 against preferred player in blue gear because he did not pay to use better gear, that loot is locked to him, and if by any chance he gets hands on such items, they are not equip-able (needs authorization). So it is not just pay to look good, it is pay to have better stats. You have huge advantage simply because you continued to pay for the game, the access and use of the better gear, the more you pay, the more you remain in the race for every time next gear tier appears. Now against another premium player, you both pay same, so it isn't pay to win in that case. But people keep forgetting that Swtor requires you to pay real money for both, stats and fashion, both require real money. Premium account is P2W against every other account class, but not against another Premium account.

The occurrence of P2W interaction to actually happen is probably, I am assuming, very low. The way business model in swtor works is to completely cut players off, to divide them from the first class, from the premium players. The boosters are simply there to make progression faster, they don't unlock better stats that will place you in advantage over players who do not use boosters, like premium status does.
Click here to get these rewards in SWTOR.

robertthebard's Avatar


robertthebard
07.02.2019 , 11:29 PM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by BoySaber View Post
You do have to pay real money to get the crates. Galactic Command, Purple Gear, and most of group content is real money. You win against those who do not pay for that. An example if you run in a WZ level 70 against preferred player in blue gear because he did not pay to use better gear, that loot is locked to him, and if by any chance he gets hands on such items, they are not equip-able (needs authorization). So it is not just pay to look good, it is pay to have better stats. You have huge advantage simply because you continued to pay for the game, the access and use of the better gear, the more you pay, the more you remain in the race for every time next gear tier appears. Now against another premium player, you both pay same, so it isn't pay to win in that case. But people keep forgetting that Swtor requires you to pay real money for both, stats and fashion, both require real money. Premium account is P2W against every other account class, but not against another Premium account.

The occurrence of P2W interaction to actually happen is probably, I am assuming, very low. The way business model in swtor works is to completely cut players off, to divide them from the first class, from the premium players. The boosters are simply there to make progression faster, they don't unlock better stats that will place you in advantage over players who do not use boosters, like premium status does.
That's all good and all, but I also pointed that out several pages back. As I said then, if one can justify paying a sub, then one shouldn't be all that concerned about xp boosts, no matter where that xp is being applied, whether it be actual xp, or command ranks, or whatever else comes down the pipe. I've never been a fan of the F2P model here.
Quote: Originally Posted by Transcendent View Post
Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

FlatTax's Avatar


FlatTax
07.07.2019 , 02:21 PM | #80
Oh boy. There's been some silliness here since I last posted. Most of it's been addressed in my previous posts, but it may be time to re-summarize soon, for those arriving late and not following the plot.

I'll offer this now: shortly after the launch of 6.0, look for XP boosts to be on the 'featured' and/or 'popular' pages of the cash shop. The proof will be in the pudding when it comes to highly-monetized gearing/progression.