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Progression Double-Monetized in 6.0?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Progression Double-Monetized in 6.0?

robertthebard's Avatar


robertthebard
08.14.2019 , 07:42 AM | #121
Quote: Originally Posted by FlatTax View Post
You only need to read my previous post to have your question answered.
Except that, again, you're wrong, and you're wrong on levels that mean you're intentionally posting misinformation.

P2W: Items required for end game can only be obtained from the Cash Shop of the specific game, or by purchasing them from players that did so.

Where in any of the information that we have does this condition exist? Again; I am not changing the accepted definition to fit your "but everything should be free since I pay a sub" narrative. It's weak, and your justifications are also weak. Any time you have to change the definition of words or terms to fit your narrative, there's something wrong with your narrative. The "loot boxes" in question here cannot be directly purchased from the CS, no matter how many times you claim they can be, directly, or indirectly. They cannot be purchased from the CS no matter how many times you post what you pay for a sub every year. XP boosts are routinely given away through the game, for free, for simply playing the game, so their availability on the CS is pointless.

28 toons on one server, and all of them have stacks of bound xp boosts, meaning that they were rewarded for playing the game, not from CS purchases which are bound for a couple of days, and can then be sold on the GTN, if one desires to do so, or simply transferred to a different toon on one's legacy. What's even funnier, from my perspective, is that you can get these w/out even carrying a sub, so you don't have to pay anything at all to get them. So much for P2W, at least in so far as this is concerned.
Quote: Originally Posted by Transcendent View Post
Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

lightSaberAddiCt's Avatar


lightSaberAddiCt
08.14.2019 , 10:41 AM | #122
Quote: Originally Posted by robertthebard View Post
Except that, again, you're wrong, and you're wrong on levels that mean you're intentionally posting misinformation.

P2W: Items required for end game can only be obtained from the Cash Shop of the specific game, or by purchasing them from players that did so.

Where in any of the information that we have does this condition exist? Again; I am not changing the accepted definition to fit your "but everything should be free since I pay a sub" narrative. It's weak, and your justifications are also weak. Any time you have to change the definition of words or terms to fit your narrative, there's something wrong with your narrative. The "loot boxes" in question here cannot be directly purchased from the CS, no matter how many times you claim they can be, directly, or indirectly. They cannot be purchased from the CS no matter how many times you post what you pay for a sub every year. XP boosts are routinely given away through the game, for free, for simply playing the game, so their availability on the CS is pointless.

28 toons on one server, and all of them have stacks of bound xp boosts, meaning that they were rewarded for playing the game, not from CS purchases which are bound for a couple of days, and can then be sold on the GTN, if one desires to do so, or simply transferred to a different toon on one's legacy. What's even funnier, from my perspective, is that you can get these w/out even carrying a sub, so you don't have to pay anything at all to get them. So much for P2W, at least in so far as this is concerned.
Dude why did you bring this back to the first page? Just let it die and go back to the 2nd or 3rd page. All you are doing is giving him the exposure he wants. Let it go. Honestly, it is time the mods do their freaking jobs and either lock this thread, or put it into the suggestions folder or off topic. I know this is the last time I am responding to it, help us out here.l
Just Click It for Free Stuff I need the CC
http://www.swtor.com/r/Hj4n32

phalczen's Avatar


phalczen
08.14.2019 , 10:48 AM | #123
Quote: Originally Posted by robertthebard View Post
The "loot boxes" in question here cannot be directly purchased from the CS, no matter how many times you claim they can be, directly, or indirectly. They cannot be purchased from the CS no matter how many times you post what you pay for a sub every year.
I think this is the important distinction. FlatTax is correct that a person who stacks both Experience Point boosts and Renown boosts will earn renown crates faster than someone who does not utilize both, or consumes all their free Experience boosts.

Where FlatTax is not correct is in the presumption that a player earning renown crates will gear faster. That is entirely random, and since we don't know the extent of all the sources of amplifiers yet, we really can't conclude that renown crates will be the fastest or even a decently efficient way to acquire these. Whatever the "Charles Points" or "Chux Bux" are going to be will factor in heavily.

RNG-protection, as it has been presented in the live streams, seems to apply to gear, and not amplifiers.

We also know that the CXP boosts you purchase now with command tokens are as effective in magnitude, if not duration, as the Market ones. I doubt that Renown point boosts bought via in game currency are going away, even if the Command Tokens are. I haven't needed a Market CXP boost in well over a year, I could probably buy at least 30 if not 40 boosts right now with all the Command Tokens I have saved up, which should last me well into 6.0.

All that being said, I think FlatTax's argument that "progression is double monetized" is a sensational headline, but not completely without merit. We don't know exactly how much the ratio of Renown XP to Experience Points will be, which of course could lessen the impact of an XP boost (if you only get one renown point for every 1000 xp, for example, then a 15% xp boost won't matter except for big mission turn-ins.) It's something to consider, sure, but its not the clear pay-to-win outcome that FlatTax is claiming.
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FlatTax's Avatar


FlatTax
08.14.2019 , 04:00 PM | #124
Quote: Originally Posted by robertthebard View Post
Except that, again, you're wrong, and you're wrong on levels that mean you're intentionally posting misinformation.

P2W: Items required for end game can only be obtained from the Cash Shop of the specific game, or by purchasing them from players that did so.

Where in any of the information that we have does this condition exist? Again; I am not changing the accepted definition to fit your "but everything should be free since I pay a sub" narrative. It's weak, and your justifications are also weak. Any time you have to change the definition of words or terms to fit your narrative, there's something wrong with your narrative. The "loot boxes" in question here cannot be directly purchased from the CS, no matter how many times you claim they can be, directly, or indirectly. They cannot be purchased from the CS no matter how many times you post what you pay for a sub every year. XP boosts are routinely given away through the game, for free, for simply playing the game, so their availability on the CS is pointless.

28 toons on one server, and all of them have stacks of bound xp boosts, meaning that they were rewarded for playing the game, not from CS purchases which are bound for a couple of days, and can then be sold on the GTN, if one desires to do so, or simply transferred to a different toon on one's legacy. What's even funnier, from my perspective, is that you can get these w/out even carrying a sub, so you don't have to pay anything at all to get them. So much for P2W, at least in so far as this is concerned.
I'm defining pay-to-win correctly.

Monetized 'boosts' that feed loot drops absolutely equate to purchasing gear via gambling products.
Social Justice Advocate

Seven hours of paying to win in SWTOR can double a subscriber's monthly cost. Detailed figures available on request.

robertthebard's Avatar


robertthebard
08.15.2019 , 04:50 AM | #125
Quote: Originally Posted by lightSaberAddiCt View Post
Dude why did you bring this back to the first page? Just let it die and go back to the 2nd or 3rd page. All you are doing is giving him the exposure he wants. Let it go. Honestly, it is time the mods do their freaking jobs and either lock this thread, or put it into the suggestions folder or off topic. I know this is the last time I am responding to it, help us out here.l
Because I really want anyone researching this for court cases to see how ridiculous players can get with their P2W claims. This thread, for example, exists because the OP believes w/out question that everything the game comes out with, ever, should be free because the OP pays a sub. This is a similar argument to "I bought the game, so everything you make, ever, should be free".

Ironically enough, a lot of stuff is free, if you had an active sub when it released, such as KotFE/ET. All of those chapters were free if your sub was active when they released, or, even, if you pay a month of sub now, you can get all of it, barring one story. In DDO, they have similar content that is released free to VIPs, which is their sub model, but if you didn't purchase it directly, and allow your sub to lapse, you no longer have access to that content, unless you get a guest pass from someone who does, buy it, or reactivate your sub.

So while we can, in fact, point at the "greedy game companies being greedy", sometimes, it's not the game company that's at fault, but greedy players looking for a handout, such as this thread. Make no mistake, the whole premise here is "I pay a sub, and so I shouldn't have to buy anything else", peppered with some ***** envy that someone might get something a tad bit faster. Note, that's faster, not the typical P2W scenario of not at all w/out buying it directly from the CS or from someone who did.
Quote: Originally Posted by Transcendent View Post
Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

FlatTax's Avatar


FlatTax
08.30.2019 , 11:06 AM | #126
Quote: Originally Posted by phalczen View Post
I think this is the important distinction. FlatTax is correct that a person who stacks both Experience Point boosts and Renown boosts will earn renown crates faster than someone who does not utilize both, or consumes all their free Experience boosts.

Where FlatTax is not correct is in the presumption that a player earning renown crates will gear faster. That is entirely random, and since we don't know the extent of all the sources of amplifiers yet, we really can't conclude that renown crates will be the fastest or even a decently efficient way to acquire these. Whatever the "Charles Points" or "Chux Bux" are going to be will factor in heavily.

RNG-protection, as it has been presented in the live streams, seems to apply to gear, and not amplifiers.

We also know that the CXP boosts you purchase now with command tokens are as effective in magnitude, if not duration, as the Market ones. I doubt that Renown point boosts bought via in game currency are going away, even if the Command Tokens are. I haven't needed a Market CXP boost in well over a year, I could probably buy at least 30 if not 40 boosts right now with all the Command Tokens I have saved up, which should last me well into 6.0.

All that being said, I think FlatTax's argument that "progression is double monetized" is a sensational headline, but not completely without merit. We don't know exactly how much the ratio of Renown XP to Experience Points will be, which of course could lessen the impact of an XP boost (if you only get one renown point for every 1000 xp, for example, then a 15% xp boost won't matter except for big mission turn-ins.) It's something to consider, sure, but its not the clear pay-to-win outcome that FlatTax is claiming.
Letís talk about that XP-to-CXP conversion:
Using an XP and CXP boost together will net you a 2.5x advantage gearing with Renown crates, regardless of the percentage of XP converted to CXP.

Hereís the math for a 10% conversion, and a 50% conversion, on a 100 XP award. The 1.25 multiplication represents the XP boost, and the x2 multiplication is the CXP boost:

EDIT: Improved the presentation of my math; the conclusion remains unchanged:
10% Conversion:
100x1.25=125 XP (boosted XP value)
125x.1=12.5 CXP (10% conversion)
12.5x2=25 <- Final P2W CXP award (boosted CXP)
25 is two-and-a-half times better than 10 (10% of 100)

50% Conversion:
100x1.25=125 XP (boosted XP value)
125x.5=62.5 CXP (50% conversion)
62.5x2=125 <- Final P2W CXP award (boosted CXP)
125 is two-and-a-half times better than 50 (50% of 100)

Paying to Win: A Cost Analysis! Letís get some numbers on the board:
Cartel Coins, Low-Efficiency Purchase (250 CC @ $2.99): 83.61 CC/Dollar
Cartel Coins, High-Efficiency Purchase (5500 CC @ $39.99): 137.53 CC/Dollar
XP Boost, Minor (1hr): 60 CC; @ Low/High-Efficiency Exchange Rate: $0.72/$0.44
XP Boost, Major x5 (3hr ea.); 360 CC @ Low/High-Efficiency Exchange Rate: $4.31/$2.62
Major XP Boost cost per hour @ Low/High-Efficiency Exchange Rate: $0.29/$0.17
Sup. CXP x1 (3hr); 300 CC @ Low/High-Efficiency Exchange Rate: $3.59/$2.18
Sup. CXP x1 cost per hour @ Low/High-Efficiency Exchange Rate: $1.20/$0.73
Sup. CXP x5 (3hr ea.); 1050 CC: @ Low/High-Efficiency Exchange Rate: $7.63/$12.56
Sup. CXP x5 cost per hour @ Low/High-Efficiency Exchange Rate: $0.84/$0.51

(Feel free to check my figures; if you believe theyíre in error, please show the math, and Iíll be happy to make corrections where warranted)

Whatís that tell us?
It lets us calculate our hourly pay-to win costs!

P2W per Hour, Low-Efficiency Purchases: $1.91/hour
P2W per Hour, High-Efficiency Purchases: $0.68/hour

This means less than seven hours of paying to win could double the monthly cost of SWTOR for a subscriber, while delivering 2.5X the Renown gear drops.

If youíre a month-to-month subscriber, your 500 CC ration works out to less than 1 hour 20min of low-efficiency pay-to-win time per month, if thatís how you choose to spend it.

It also shows us paying to win via low-efficiency purchases is almost three times as expensive as high efficiency purchases...

Why would anyone do that (low-efficiency purchases)?
The barrier to entry: Maximum efficiency requires an initial $39.99 purchase of 5,500 CC, to be used for 1,360 CC worth of consumables. The low-efficiency option only requires 360 CC.

Our intuitive assumptions about economies of scale are being taken advantage of to justify low-efficiency sales. Itís a psychological trick (no oneís incurring costs manufacturing individual consumables for shipping, for instance).

Of all things, a Terry Pratchett novel introduced the ĎBoots Theory of Socioeconomic Unfairness,í which became popular with economists for its plain-English explanation of how small, low-efficiency purchases make being poor more expensive than being better off. Itís worth looking up.

Weíre left with the practical effect of SWTOR structured to take advantage of children and other poor people, bringing more disrepute onto products that shouldnít exist.
Social Justice Advocate

Seven hours of paying to win in SWTOR can double a subscriber's monthly cost. Detailed figures available on request.

Balameb's Avatar


Balameb
08.30.2019 , 12:02 PM | #127
Quote: Originally Posted by FlatTax View Post
Letís talk about that XP-to-CXP conversion:
Using an XP and CXP boost together will net you a 2.5x advantage gearing with Renown crates, regardless of the percentage of XP converted to CXP.

Hereís the math for a 10% conversion, and a 50% conversion, on a 100XP award. The 1.25 multiplication represents the XP boost, and the x2 multiplication is the CXP boost:

10% Conversion:
100x.1=10 CXP <-Base CXP, no P2W
10x1.25=12.5
12.5x2=25 CXP <- Final P2W CXP award
25 is two-and-a-half times better than 10

50% Conversion:
100x.5=50 CXP <-Base CXP award, no P2W
50x1.25=62.5
62.5x2= 125 CXP <- Final P2W CXP award
125 is two-and-a-half times better than 50
You are wrong, sorry.
You are first ignoring the fact that CXP boost are available to everyone without CC. Then you are double the 25% xp bonus and that is just wrong.
CXP Boost has never, EVER worked like that.
You are using the base as if CXP will double all your gains as if they multiply all other bonus, it does not. It ADDS.
Multiple bonus stacking do not work like Base x 1.bonusA x 1.bonusB x 1.bonusC. They work like this:
Base + Base x 0.bonusA + Base x 0.bonusB + Base x 0.bonusC

To give you some perspective. All the current CXP bonus like Character Perk, Legacy Perk and Guild bonus are NOT doubled by CXP boost. Neither the double Exp event. All are additive. You can test this easy with bonus packs from command crates.

So basically, all your math gets your so called advantage cut by half, then you can even diminish that more because every other bonus available makes the 25% exp bonus from even more tiny. I imagine it would be more closer to 5% extra gain or even less as CXP (renown) conversion from XP will probably mean very little (still testing).
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FlatTax's Avatar


FlatTax
08.30.2019 , 12:19 PM | #128
You'd be right if we were stacking bonuses for a single value, but we're not. It's two separate operations.

XP boosts apply only to XP, and XP must be determined before conversion to CXP can occur.

CXP is then doubled by its boost. (And yes, any additional CXP bonuses would be additive only)

The math has to occur as I present it.

EDIT: Improved the presentation of my math; the conclusion remains unchanged:
10% Conversion:
100x1.25=125 XP (boosted XP value)
125x.1=12.5 CXP (10% conversion)
12.5x2=25 <- Final P2W CXP award (boosted CXP)
25 is two-and-a-half times better than 10 (10% of 100)

50% Conversion:
100x1.25=125 XP (boosted XP value)
125x.5=62.5 CXP (50% conversion)
62.5x2=125 <- Final P2W CXP award (boosted CXP)
125 is two-and-a-half times better than 50 (50% of 100)
Social Justice Advocate

Seven hours of paying to win in SWTOR can double a subscriber's monthly cost. Detailed figures available on request.

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
08.30.2019 , 01:18 PM | #129
Is OP assuming that everyone feels P2W is bad? Honestly most games should offer the ability to purchase anything in the game for either cash or via completion of content. Time spent is time spent. Some players have more free time to play, but less money. Others have more money, but less free time due to jobs.

FlatTax's Avatar


FlatTax
09.07.2019 , 05:20 PM | #130
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
Is OP assuming that everyone feels P2W is bad? Honestly most games should offer the ability to purchase anything in the game for either cash or via completion of content. Time spent is time spent. Some players have more free time to play, but less money. Others have more money, but less free time due to jobs.
Oh boy. It'd be nice if I could keep a pinned summary at the top of each page for this thread. I have a summary appended to the front of the first post, on page 1. Let's dig in:

When gearing is monetized with MTXs, the un-monetized experience is de facto sabotaged to incentivize financial transactions.

It's offensive for a publisher, after taking $155.88, year over year, to provide a sabotaged 'Premium' experience, and then offer to rent us a solution to a problem of their making. It's reminiscent of the way organized crime used to shake down neighborhoods.

There're also larger moral and cultural concerns associated with paying to win.

The result is an unethical business model, with a vast pool of subscribers having a second-class experience, while Electronic Arts goes whaling.

See above about the 'Boots Theory of Socioeconomic Unfairness,' four posts up.
Social Justice Advocate

Seven hours of paying to win in SWTOR can double a subscriber's monthly cost. Detailed figures available on request.