So is this game officially going P2W now that BiS gear can be purchased from GTN? I know it is somewhat different to few other games where BiS games are sold directly on in-game store, but frankly this is just semantics. I am very worried the effect this would have on the game long term.

Firstly you will subsidise small minority of players who do nim raiding & crafting to make huge amount of credits. We talking possibly first game multi trillionaires here. With each gear piece going to cost hundreds of millions - it will introduce hyper inflation into the game. Casual players will be out priced utterly. This won't affect just the gear, but everything else as well. I am no economist, but I am worried about the effect it will have on in-game economy which is already at a breaking point.

Secondly once a game has a stint of P2W - it's a cat out of the bag. You won't be able to undo the damage to the game's reputation. Until now CM has been annoying, but tolerable, now it may become an essential part of the game in order to stay current / competitive. I have no doubt this will result in influx of cash for the studio, but I do wonder about the long term effects. One can only look at many asian MMO games plagued with P2W and how long they last.

Finally it is more philosophical issue - should BiS gear be attainable without appropriate effort? I liked the way gearing used to be prior 3.0. Each difficulty rank offered improved gear and only players participating were able to get it. It made gear rewarding and made it feel worth the effort. Now every schmuck running dailies and SM ops can get BiS. And with 5.10 anyone with disposable income will have BiS without any effort at all.

Is this where the game is heading? If so I don't think I'll want to be part of it.

I think, P2W at least in the sense where it really matters is only in regard to real money. I think, this is very different. I could be wrong, but I thought you could always buy higher end-game gear off the GTN, or at least the components to put into your armor shells yourself?

I think there's nothing to worry about, especially because, I think, the CM is showing no signs of an inclination towards P2W where you gotta spend real money to actually get BiS gear. I like the CM, because for the most part it's purely cosmetic.

Also, I think you should be able to buy it off the GTN, so more people can have the higher end-game gear which in turn might he helpful in trying to find groups.

As for the exorbitant prices, I'm sure they would go down once no one buys, which will force the prices lower to a more affordable rate.

P2W in MMOs refers to the need to use actual real life money in order to buy gear from a studio to be able to compete with or against other players in game. It is a very common approach in Asian grinder MMOs that operate with no subscription model. The new gear is NOT available in this manner.

When there is an in game resource required to obtain said gear... be it resources, time, effort, credits, or some combination of all of this (which is what is actually required) ... this is not P2W. That would be E-2-C (effort to compete) and is an all in game exercise on the part of a player. The new gear is ONLY available in this manner.

Credits are no different then time and effort in game, resource wise. In fact.. credits and effort are effectively interchangeable in game because you use one to offset the other or use one to achieve the other. Credits and time are fungible resources in MMOs.. and different players will focus on them and use them differently... yet they remain in game expressions of resources by the player.

P2W in MMOs refers to the need to use actual real life money in order to buy gear from a studio to be able to compete with or against other players in game. It is a very common approach in Asian grinder MMOs that operate with no subscription model. The new gear is NOT available in this manner.

 

When there is an in game resource required to obtain said gear... be it resources, time, effort, credits, or some combination of all of this (which is what is actually required) ... this is not P2W. That would be E-2-C (effort to compete) and is an all in game exercise on the part of a player. The new gear is ONLY available in this manner.

 

Credits are no different then time and effort in game, resource wise. In fact.. credits and effort are effectively interchangeable in game because you use one to offset the other or use one to achieve the other. Credits and time are fungible resources in MMOs.. and different players will focus on them and use them differently... yet they remain in game expressions of resources by the player.

Not me who started the tread.

Again Andryah, time and effort are not the only way this gear is available. I can never use an action on my keyboard and have a BiS max level character.

... time and effort are not the only way this gear is available. I can never use an action on my keyboard and have a BiS max level character.

And even Eric acknowledged on the live stream that crafted gear would be "controversial" as a result. The studio knows exactly what it is doing.

What is that? Allowing players to buy the best gear if they have the RL money for it (or even if they don't, as long as your credit card is within reach!)

Even if only a small number of "whales" do so, it's still a significant shift in philosophy for BW to allow for this.

This is the first time it's ever been the case that BiS will be available to simply buy, if you're willing to convert CCs to credits. Craftable gear in the past was always of a lesser level than what was then BiS.

Not P2W as the gear is available to all players though in-game means, though the gear seems totally unnecessary for 99.99% of the content (and anyone that buys credits via whatever means to buy crafted versions of this gear is an idiot - and probably sucks at the game to boot such that their performance with this gear will still be bad).

Then again, this is the studio that has twice reset gear and raised the level cap without actually adding much in the way of new content that would necessitate a gear reset - so finding creative ways to keep players grinding away at years old content is the norm.

BTW - Pay to win would be this gear being sold on the cash shop, with no ability to obtain through in-game means.

BTW - Pay to win would be this gear being sold on the cash shop, with no ability to obtain through in-game means.

^^ Exactly correct.. and is the long standing generally accepted definition in the MMO community.

But of course... nothing stops someone from "sour grapes" presented as fact and going full hyperbolic rhetoric about anything and everything in an MMO.

What is that? Allowing players to buy the best gear if they have the RL money for it (or even if they don't, as long as your credit card is within reach!)

Except no player can buy any of this gear with RL money. Period.. full stop. Crafted gear "might" be purchasable for in game credits.. and every player with credits can in fact buy said gear if they feel the price is worth the return.

And please.. don't start with the tired and stale meme of "but whales will just buy CM items and sell them in game to convert to credits" ... because that simply is one of many ways of having enough credits in your in game wallets to buy things you want to buy. In fact.. I would argue that this is the stupidest way to earn credits in game.... because credits are so readily available and most veteran players are quite wealthy these days.... so why not also insist that this crafted gear favors veterans over new players too??????? Any veteran player in this MMO that is not wealthy in credits... that is by their own choice.

I can get this gear with my credit card. That's a fact. I can get it with many other ways sure, but the easiest is with my credit card. That is not called P2W though, it's called lemon muffin .

I don't think it will be "easiest" for a while, at least one month even, because folks won't be selling 258 on the GTN right away. And even then, it will require a LOT of credits to purchase, if the current schematic requirements go live.

In general, I agree it's a problem you can get BiS with a credit card, though. That was never possible in what's approaching 7 years.

For example, let's say people get their 7 armor pieces doing Ossus dailies, MM FPs, etc. Will some "whales" or people generally be tempted to buy Earpiece/Implants/Relics with actual money? Does it become even more likely with Alts?

What about Mainhand/Offhand hilts, barrels and armorings, what is especially important for DPS and Healing? So far, it's not clear from the PTS if these will be craftable or not.

If they are, how many people will simply buy them instead of running a really difficult MM/NiM Operation, if they can even find a reliable group to do progression with these days?

Sure, veteran players generally have credits saved up, but others may not (say, folks who mostly just PVP, or those who return to the game to find their credits are worth almost nothing). And that you can simply use a credit card to get the BiS pieces you need to fill in on a character is, in my view, a problematic shift for the game. This is especially the case if revenue from SWTOR increases as a result.

We'll see how it actually works on the live server's market. It's generally not an efficient use of money to buy gear this way, but people have been wasting money on CM packs/items for most of the game's life when it was easy to play the GTN and game generally and buy the same items with credits earned in the process.

In general, I agree it's a problem you can get BiS with a credit card, though. That was never possible in what's approaching 7 years.

You're forgetting about the craftable Campaign and Dread Guard gear in the 1.x days.

When the Cartel Market was introduced, people were able to buy things with cash, sell thos things for credits, and then use those credits purchase BiS gear being sold on the GTN. Also remember that there were set bonuses tied to the armor shells, and Tionese gear was being given for free just for dinging 50.

It wasn't until 2.0 that craftable gear was kept at one tier below BiS.

its still something happen.

for eg its possible to buy satel shan set armor from cash in CM and sell this armor into the in game market to convert it in credits. and with those credit we can buy BIS.

You're forgetting about the craftable Campaign and Dread Guard gear in the 1.x days.

 

When the Cartel Market was introduced, people were able to buy things with cash, sell thos things for credits, and then use those credits purchase BiS gear being sold on the GTN. Also remember that there were set bonuses tied to the armor shells, and Tionese gear was being given for free just for dinging 50.

 

It wasn't until 2.0 that craftable gear was kept at one tier below BiS.

I don't remember that, but I was more into playing through all the class stories slowly and level 50 PVP back then.

As far as "free gear" goes, there are always catch-up mechanisms that have been in place in this and other MMOs. 126 gear with a set bonus, which if I remember correctly is what Tionese was, wasn't of concern in late 2012.

I would refer you to my previous post for thoughts on craftable 258 gear and potential problems with it:

"For example, let's say people get their 7 armor pieces doing Ossus dailies, MM FPs, etc. Will some "whales" or people generally be tempted to buy Earpiece/Implants/Relics with actual money? Does it become even more likely with Alts?

What about Mainhand/Offhand hilts, barrels and armorings, what is especially important for DPS and Healing? So far, it's not clear from the PTS if these will be craftable or not.

If they are, how many people will simply buy them instead of running a really difficult MM/NiM Operation, if they can even find a reliable group to do progression with these days?

Sure, veteran players generally have credits saved up, but others may not (say, folks who mostly just PVP, or those who return to the game to find their credits are worth almost nothing). And that you can simply use a credit card to get the BiS pieces you need to fill in on a character is, in my view, a problematic shift for the game. This is especially the case if revenue from SWTOR increases as a result.

We'll see how it actually works on the live server's market. It's generally not an efficient use of money to buy gear this way, but people have been wasting money on CM packs/items for most of the game's life when it was easy to play the GTN and game generally and buy the same items with credits earned in the process."

people were able to buy things with cash, sell thos things for credits, and then use those credits purchase BiS gear being sold on the GTN.

Yes, this is how I understand the P2W, since you can use real money to buy CM stuff, sell on GTN and use those credits to buy the gear so.... it is P2W in a certain way.

I don't remember that, but I was more into playing through all the class stories slowly and level 50 PVP back then.

 

As far as "free gear" goes, there are always catch-up mechanisms that have been in place in this and other MMOs. 126 gear with a set bonus, which if I remember correctly is what Tionese was, wasn't of concern in late 2012.

 

I would refer you to my previous post for thoughts on craftable 258 gear and potential problems with it:

I get what you're saying, but everything you're describing was possible after the Cartel Market was introduced.

Now, bearing in mind that this is just my experience (so take it with a grain of salt), but the ability to purchase BiS didn't initially have much affect on the ability to form a group and run content. This was, in my opinion, primarily due to availability.

It wasn't until late in the 1.x lifecycle when two things happened:

1. Someone discovered a trick that allowed them to learn BiS schematics by buying someone else's crafted mod, putting it into moddable gear, tearing it out, and reverse engineering it. Bioware eventually acknowledged this practice publicly and decided that it wasn't an exploit. At this point any crafter could learn to make BiS. Note that this was later patched out, but not for a very long time.

2. The previously rare materials of Molecular Stabilizers could be obtained by purchasing PvP gear and reverse engineering them. Suddenly you had a massive availability of the raw materials, accompanied by a significant number of crafters who could make it.

At that point it became easier for many players to buy BiS than to earn it. And I saw declines of groups forming. Both in my own guild, and on the fleet. But it was availability that caused this problem. Early on, materials were scarce, crafters were few, and prices were high.

What we see right now on the PTS, with the extraordinary costs of rare materials, the availability of 258 gear is going to be low. And the prices will be extraordinary.

These days, a full set of 246 runs around 50 million on Satele Shan.

What's 258 going to be? 300 million? 400 million? 500 million? How much real world money, turned into credits through the cartel market will that take? How many people will actually be willing to pay that much?

I think the impact of the ability to buy BiS is going to minimal, based purely on availability.

Yes, this is how I understand the P2W, since you can use real money to buy CM stuff, sell on GTN and use those credits to buy the gear so.... it is P2W in a certain way.

At worst, that's a subset of P2A, "pay to accelerate". If you do what you described, you can't get something that I can't get by playing the game. What you get, you get *faster*, whence "accelerate".

In general, I agree it's a problem you can get BiS with a credit card, though. That was never possible in what's approaching 7 years.

This is not a BiS with a credit card pathway though.. it's a credits for BiS pathway. There is a difference, in spite of the fact that you do have a mechanism for CC-2-Credits. Nor is there any evidence of players in any numbers actually doing the CC-2-Credits thing anyway... not for years now. There are certainly some who work the heck out of their referral rewards program, but that is not using RL money either. And note: at any given time... about a third of the CC float in the player base is not actually purchased with a credit card, it is awarded either as part of a subscription or refer-a-friend program.

Now.. if you want to prosecute the decision by the studio to make BiS gear (with set bonus) craftable BoE to begin with.. that is a worthy debate topic. But can we please get off this silly distortion of the term P2W? Such a distortion makes even a subscription = P2W by the very loose definition some players are peddling here.... because a player can subscribe and have access to unlimited earnings in credits and access to said credits in game to buy anything in game they choose that can be traded between players.

The difference between billionaires and paupers in SWTOR is not the method-2-credits.. it is the focus and determination of the player to build self-sustaining wealth in game. And by the way... buying CM items and selling them for credits is simply not the best way in this particular game (not even close), and is certainly a non-starter for this new gear (which would literally cost you many hundred of dollars for a set by going this convoluted pathway of CC-2-Credits. Most players... even those playing this new Credit_Card-2-Credits meme in the discussion will not spend that kind of RL money for some virtual goods... so the assertion that this is P2W and will ruin the game in a P2W sense just does not scan.