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Kaggath Tournament: The Dark Imperium vs the Alliance of Worlds

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Tournament: The Dark Imperium vs the Alliance of Worlds

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.20.2014 , 06:37 AM | #501
I think we should move on from this so called 'math' and concern ourselves with tactics.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
02.20.2014 , 07:29 AM | #502
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I think we should move on from this so called 'math' and concern ourselves with tactics.
Yes....math is evil. We don't need it!
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
02.20.2014 , 01:43 PM | #503
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
As I said, it rivals an ISD. That is what is important. From there we can establish a connection between eras as both the ISD and the Venator served the same roles in their respective periods.

The Victory--I on the other hand, is irrelevant. It was introduced during the Clone Wars era, around the same time as the Venator itself. So that would not be an accurate of fair cross-comparison between eras.

Nonetheless you have a point about the ISD having less hanger space and therefore able to hold more guns. Given that I'd say that Venator is likely minorly less powerful than an ISD-I but I wouldn't say anything about Victorys.

I have no idea were you got those numbers from. But I prefer to use the statement that a Republic-SD possesses 20% superior firepower of an ISD, and therefore around 10% - 15% superior firepower to a Venator.

That is not enough. In order to take down two Venators it would have to be more than 100% superior to a single Venator. One. Hundred. Percent. That is simply not going to happen, so lets move along.
The Victory may have been introduced during the Clone wars but it was still in use during the GE meaning that is the bridge between the 2 so its entirely relavent. The Venator even with the Tech rule DOES NOT have any where NEAR the firepower of an Imp class. It has more then 400% of fighters of the Imp-classes. Its not just less ITS VASTLY LESS. Lets compare ones of my own Era shall we http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nebul...Star_Destroyer vs http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Endur..._fleet_carrier. Now the difference in fighter size is only a little over 200% here meaning the difference between the Imp Fighter size and the Venator Fighter is DOUBLE the difference of mine in a later era.


Now how much weaponry did this cost the endurance, A lot it lost well more then half of its firepower. This should be AT LEAST how much the Venator loses. In which case the Repub WOULD Have more then double the fire power of a Venator. There is no way a Venator holds 4 times the fighter base of something and retains that level of fire power. AND NO WHERE does it suggest it did. All it said was its 8 guns were equivlant to the 6 guns later. (if you are wondering about the math that would mean the later guns 1:1 are about 33% stronger just add 33% to all of its weapons and TAAAA DAAAA you have scaled it for era.)

Math is an important skill for all adult human beings to have. It has allowed science, innovation and construction on a scale and accuracy that just get better and better in time. Math is what helped make the computers we use now and tell you how to balance your check book so that you don't end up on the street or go to jail.


Edit: I will get to tactics when we can get these things out of the way because they are relavent to the success and failure of a tactic.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.20.2014 , 01:55 PM | #504
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
Yes....math is evil. We don't need it!
Well, since the Anti-life equation can destroy the world as we know it, I'm inclined to agree.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
02.20.2014 , 01:57 PM | #505
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Well, since the Anti-life equation can destroy the world as we know it, I'm inclined to agree.
this is no where near as complicated as the Anti-life equation. That would take days just to write I am not about to start writing that when simple arithmatic and pre-algebra is all thats needed right now .

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.20.2014 , 02:04 PM | #506
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
this is no where near as complicated as the Anti-life equation. That would take days just to write I am not about to start writing that when simple arithmatic and pre-algebra is all thats needed right now .
I know lol.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
02.20.2014 , 02:17 PM | #507
Oh something to think about. On Hapes Leia could potentially be as difficult to reach as Traya on Malachor. The reason being if firstly the Transistor Mists. The mists allow the AoW ships to bottle neck enemies in and put up inteception into a hail of bullets, allowing the AoW to take an edge in space combat since they know all the paths through the mists and where each path converges at (several paths converge on a single location called a Knot Hole). Allowing for never ending ambushes by the AoW. Secondly Hapes itself is the location of both the palace which is likely gaurded by a planetary shield but also http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Reef_Fortress_Island which is likely gaurded by the same. The only way to this place is supposedly accessible by boat. A water navy the DI does not have, but I do including Hapan Wave runners. Further more if you are not familiar with the waters natural defenses such as http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Carnivorous_seaweed can kill many of the troops that may be sent for her if they pass to close to one or have their boats disabled in any way.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
02.20.2014 , 02:40 PM | #508
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
The Victory may have been introduced during the Clone wars but it was still in use during the GE meaning that is the bridge between the 2 so its entirely relavent. The Venator even with the Tech rule DOES NOT have any where NEAR the firepower of an Imp class. It has more then 400% of fighters of the Imp-classes. Its not just less ITS VASTLY LESS. Lets compare ones of my own Era shall we http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nebul...Star_Destroyer vs http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Endur..._fleet_carrier. Now the difference in fighter size is only a little over 200% here meaning the difference between the Imp Fighter size and the Venator Fighter is DOUBLE the difference of mine in a later era.


Now how much weaponry did this cost the endurance, A lot it lost well more then half of its firepower. This should be AT LEAST how much the Venator loses. In which case the Repub WOULD Have more then double the fire power of a Venator. There is no way a Venator holds 4 times the fighter base of something and retains that level of fire power. AND NO WHERE does it suggest it did. All it said was its 8 guns were equivlant to the 6 guns later. (if you are wondering about the math that would mean the later guns 1:1 are about 33% stronger just add 33% to all of its weapons and TAAAA DAAAA you have scaled it for era.)

Math is an important skill for all adult human beings to have. It has allowed science, innovation and construction on a scale and accuracy that just get better and better in time. Math is what helped make the computers we use now and tell you how to balance your check book so that you don't end up on the street or go to jail.


Edit: I will get to tactics when we can get these things out of the way because they are relavent to the success and failure of a tactic.
Your comparison with the Endurance seems to be lacking in accuracy. The Endurance was classed as a carrier armed only with "secondary armament" whereas the Venator is classed as a Star Destroyer and was probably one of the most powerful vessels of its time and its reactor core is far superior to that of other destroyers such as the Providence and other vessels that had inferior fighter capacity.

And the fact that its main guns do rival that of an ISD is extremely telling. It was a multi-role warship and its primary role was not as a carrier. Indeed as Wookieepedia states:

Despite possessing powerful weaponry and being on par with the Victory-class, the Venator-class was designed with an additional starfighter carrier role in mind. Its hangars were far larger than those on other Star Destroyers like the Victory-class and later models like the Imperator/Imperial-class.

The Victory is the same size/class as a Venator, yet despite having a much smaller fighter capacity, the Venator remains on par in terms of fire power. That doesn't not seem in anyway similar between the disparity between the Nebula (the firepower dedicated warship) and the Endurance (the carrier warship). We cannot assume they are the same. I refuse to believe it is some chump ship worth a 1/3 of its New Republic equivalent.

Applying numbers can only have a negative effect if you are dealing with insufficient information and assumptions. Nor is it as helpful in terms of ship-to-ship warfare as it is when managing your check books. Funnily enough.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.20.2014 , 02:42 PM | #509
I'm not sure how relevant this is to the Venator/ISD/Victory argument, but the ISD was built during the Clone Wars.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
02.20.2014 , 02:43 PM | #510
The other thing i wanted to talk shortly about is Force Drain effect on Luke and Leia. Firstly Leia could potentially know how to defend against it. The Force power called Force Absorb during the NJO for a time was used to defend against both Lightning and Force Drains. If they dont know it my capital has an academy set at the time of the Old Sith Wars a time when the sith used such an ability and when the Jedi would have needed to know how to defend it there are likely holocrons on just that. Knowing Luke he will pack up every holocron he can get his hands on and study the hell out of them when ever he can.

Also they are the son and daughter of Darth Vader, if Traya knows this and since the rule was earlier that everyone remembers how they lost their first match, she may not even attempt to drain them thinking it to be potentially ineffective. Secondly on this same train of thought perception determines reality even for a Force user. The reason Palpatine was killed was because he did not think of Luke refusing to fight as even a remote possibility thus it was the one future he missed. When traya was granted her visions she was moments from her death. No one will get closer to the force being alive then right before they die and being on a Nexus at the same time pumps this even further. It was a one time moment of clarity thing and i highly doubt she could do so at any time at will.

Traya's perception was that Revan was this like looking into the Force and that the Ancient sith were the most powerful beings of all time. There is a good possibility when she looks at the Twins she will see one of a few things. She won't see their potential as it is something beyond her scope to imagine some one more then double the power of Vitiate, thus if she drains them she will only drain a portion of them... the portion they dont even know how to draw on any way leaving them with no effect felt (same with the assassins, and by no effect I mean it would feel funny but wouldnt change their abilities). Or she would see their potential and may find herself in AWE of this.

Also knowing that these are the children of the man that beat her in the last one she is much more likely to play it safe and cautious rather then overly aggressive.


Just a few thoughts on stuff that has little to do with the space or army arguements which will be concluded when other points can get settled.