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Kaggath Tournament: The Dark Imperium vs the Alliance of Worlds

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Tournament: The Dark Imperium vs the Alliance of Worlds

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
02.22.2014 , 09:39 PM | #1001
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I said that Raxus would be the most important battle of the war because it will decide who has space superiority. I never said that Hapes wouldn't be the site of the endgame. My post was about who would gain space superiority.

Apparently that meant that I thought the DI would commit everything to defending it, even though that would contradict with my posted quote from Dooku.
I am confused by this if everyone is under agreement that the DI will either Lose Raxus or spend way to much in defending it, doesnt that mean that the AoW already has space superiority? Even if the DI destroys Rendili and the AoW destroys Raxus and Bonadan, the AoW still has Hapes can still build Dragons and Nova's and still has intradictors. while the DI no longer has any Ship yards and the cost of taking the yards for the AoW doesnt seem crippling even if the full defenses of the DI are there, while the loss of Raxus is pretty crippling for the DI, they lose the ability to make droids, and intirdictor's and loss of both means the AoW can produce more ships and the DI cant.

I am not sure what the plan to gain space superiority is for the DI.

If they go on full defense they either out right lose or lose enough that the counter hit ends it. If they go on full offense they leave their ship yards completely undefended and still could likely end up hitting head to head with a force that can either beat them or cripple them, thanks to intelligence agencies and or the lack of routes to worlds or hell even the lack of need of most of the worlds for the AoW at this point. If they split their forces niether group can win any engagement they actually run into be it the blockades or the invasion force.

StarSquirrel's Avatar


StarSquirrel
02.22.2014 , 10:01 PM | #1002
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
I am confused by this if everyone is under agreement that the DI will either Lose Raxus or spend way to much in defending it, doesnt that mean that the AoW already has space superiority? Even if the DI destroys Rendili and the AoW destroys Raxus and Bonadan, the AoW still has Hapes can still build Dragons and Nova's and still has intradictors. while the DI no longer has any Ship yards and the cost of taking the yards for the AoW doesnt seem crippling even if the full defenses of the DI are there, while the loss of Raxus is pretty crippling for the DI, they lose the ability to make droids, and intirdictor's and loss of both means the AoW can produce more ships and the DI cant.

I am not sure what the plan to gain space superiority is for the DI.

If they go on full defense they either out right lose or lose enough that the counter hit ends it. If they go on full offense they leave their ship yards completely undefended and still could likely end up hitting head to head with a force that can either beat them or cripple them, thanks to intelligence agencies and or the lack of routes to worlds or hell even the lack of need of most of the worlds for the AoW at this point. If they split their forces niether group can win any engagement they actually run into be it the blockades or the invasion force.
The point is Traya and her forces will have to strike all-out from the start and go for the quick decapitation of the AoW's leadership at Hapes. In the confusion of battle it is hoped that Traya and her assassins could possibly get to Leia.

Again, I'll let Sel flesh that argument out as I'm not fully aware of most of her faction's abilities. But essentially that is what is on the table as far as I can tell.
I know if you look deep into your heart- which is currently all over that tree- you'll find a way to forgive me.

Aww, geez you look like a puppy! A blonde, eviscerated puppy!

-Alucard

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.22.2014 , 10:05 PM | #1003
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
I am confused by this if everyone is under agreement that the DI will either Lose Raxus or spend way to much in defending it, doesnt that mean that the AoW already has space superiority? Even if the DI destroys Rendili and the AoW destroys Raxus and Bonadan, the AoW still has Hapes can still build Dragons and Nova's and still has intradictors. while the DI no longer has any Ship yards and the cost of taking the yards for the AoW doesnt seem crippling even if the full defenses of the DI are there, while the loss of Raxus is pretty crippling for the DI, they lose the ability to make droids, and intirdictor's and loss of both means the AoW can produce more ships and the DI cant.

I am not sure what the plan to gain space superiority is for the DI.

If they go on full defense they either out right lose or lose enough that the counter hit ends it. If they go on full offense they leave their ship yards completely undefended and still could likely end up hitting head to head with a force that can either beat them or cripple them, thanks to intelligence agencies and or the lack of routes to worlds or hell even the lack of need of most of the worlds for the AoW at this point. If they split their forces niether group can win any engagement they actually run into be it the blockades or the invasion force.
What your strategy suggests is that the Alliance deploy 90 ships to attack the planet. Win or lose, you suffer major casualties. Win, you are assured space superiority. Lose, the stealth fleet rips apart whatever ships you have left. Your fleet as only two or three ship classes that can contend with the Harrowers. Losing the Raxus battle costs you most of these vessels. Winning costs you some, but you are still at a disadvantage against the stealth fleet.

The DI is not playing defensively. I cannot stress this enough to you or Beni. The OCF is a distraction to lead the Alliance in a different direction so the Imperium can gain victory.

We all know that the stealth fleet simply outclasses most of your vessels. Win or lose, it will be a major threat, even if the DI loses Raxus. Basically, if the AoW gains space superiority, it doesn't actually matter, not for a fleet that can appear and disappear at will.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
02.22.2014 , 10:09 PM | #1004
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
The point is Traya and her forces will have to strike all-out from the start and go for the quick decapitation of the AoW's leadership at Hapes. In the confusion of battle it is hoped that Traya and her assassins could possibly get to Leia.

Again, I'll let Sel flesh that argument out as I'm not fully aware of most of her faction's abilities. But essentially that is what is on the table as far as I can tell.
Well the issue with that is several fold, the Intelligence agency woudl likely know if the OCF is part of that meaning only 35 will hit Raxus with IG-88 while the 90 intercepts the OCF and any ships with them if the MSF is with them as well, with the transistor mists if it starts looking bad the 90 can start pulling back into the mists and ambush the hell out of the DI fleet, even if its just 35 ships the ability to use the mists as cover can delay the DI for hours if not days more then long enough for the rest of the AoW fleet to respond.

If they some how miraculously make it to hapes they have to land soldiers facing off against potentially 20,000 soldiers on the ground to get to Luke and Leia, and if they some how pull off another miracle and get past the scanning equipment and 20,000 troops then they face off against Luke and Leia surrounded by Royal gaurds. Luke and Leia are skilled enough to hold out for a couple minutes while the 20k come to help out and get them out of there and potentially skilled enough to equal Maul and Traya in a 2v2 match.

Seems like a lot of miracles to me, but hey maybe some one can figure out a way that it could work.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
02.22.2014 , 10:14 PM | #1005
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
What your strategy suggests is that the Alliance deploy 90 ships to attack the planet. Win or lose, you suffer major casualties. Win, you are assured space superiority. Lose, the stealth fleet rips apart whatever ships you have left. Your fleet as only two or three ship classes that can contend with the Harrowers. Losing the Raxus battle costs you most of these vessels. Winning costs you some, but you are still at a disadvantage against the stealth fleet.

The DI is not playing defensively. I cannot stress this enough to you or Beni. The OCF is a distraction to lead the Alliance in a different direction so the Imperium can gain victory.

We all know that the stealth fleet simply outclasses most of your vessels. Win or lose, it will be a major threat, even if the DI loses Raxus. Basically, if the AoW gains space superiority, it doesn't actually matter, not for a fleet that can appear and disappear at will.
"AoW 35 (1 part destoyer, 2 Part Cruiser, 3 part Frig, 1 Part Corvette)

5 Destroyer
1 Mediator
2 Nebula
2 Rebublic

10 Carrier/cruiser
1 Galactic
2 Endurance
3 Dragons
4 Majestic

15 Frigates
12 Nova's
3 Sacheen

5 Corvette
2 Picket
3 Warrior

VS

DI 15 (4 Part destroyer, 2 Part Cruiser, 1 Part Frig, 1 Part Corvette)

7 Destroyers
7 Harrowers

4 Cruisers
4 Terminus

0 Frigs (all frigs are apart of the OCF)

4 Corvette
4 Gafe-class


I am going to work from the bottom up on this one. The 4 vs 5 corvettes cancel each other out. Each of the Warriors have heavy armor and fire power, but the Gafe's have even heavier armor at the sacrifice of a little more firepower but both i believe stand toe to toe, The Picket ships would thus need to 2v1 the Gafe and when looking at the 5v4 match thats exactly what we have.

Skipping frigs for now since the stealth fleet has none

Cruisers I feel the Galactic stands toe to toe with the terminus but for the rest it will take at least 3 AoW to take out 2 terminus. So to get rid of all the terminus thats 1 Galactic 3 Dragons, a Majestic and 2 Nova's from teh frigate line leaving the AoW with 3 Majestics, 2 Endurance 10 Nova's and 3 Sacheen left.


Destroyers This is where the DI really takes control of this fight, each of these Harrowers are monsters. I feel the Mediator can stand toe to toe with 1, and the 2 Nebula's can work together to get 1 more, but the Repub's would need serious help with the other 5. I feel the 2 Pub's with the help of an Endurance and its compliment can take down 1 more. This leaves 4 harrows left, I feel 1 more can again be taken down by the 3 Majestic and the other Endurance. Leaving 3 Harrowers left, again I feel with their speed a 6 Nova's can take down 1 and with 4 Nova's and 3 Sacheen's taking down 1 more.

After all is said and done the stealth fleet beats the AoW blockade but with only 1 Harrower left, potentially damadge at that. Since the battle is as close as it is and the AoW can leave at any time, as well as if this was the group near the Mists this battle would last hours and any reinforcements that arrived from the other 35 that were blockading elsewhere the stealth fleet cant viably hit a local and diminish its forces enough."


The Stealth fleet does not rip apart the remaining ships. Win at Raxus, Raxus is gone and so is pretty much the entire DI fleet, Lose at Raxus, the ship yards are still likely destroyed as well as droid factories, and the amount of ships needed to gain this victory lost by the DI means that the AoW now has space superiority. Either way the AoW has space superiority.

Multiple smaller ships can and will destroy a Harrower, they are not indestructable to smaller ships they just take more smaller then larger ships to destroy.


Edit: also for the "appear and disapear" thing, all it takes is 1 specops or specforce member planting 1 tracking device on 1 of the ships, or the Crystal gravfield trap to track them down. 1 blockade of about a 4th of my fleet I have already shown can hold out again the MSF with out the assistance of the OCF and the Seinar so with out their help the MSF isnt going to be all that effective.

Any where the OCF goes people can see it and can track it and the Intel agencies means the AoW will know, thus sending the 90 ships there to either intercept or hit at what ever local they are defending.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
02.22.2014 , 10:17 PM | #1006
I'll just drop it. At this point I doubt anybody's going to get it.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Silenceo's Avatar


Silenceo
02.22.2014 , 10:42 PM | #1007
If I may chime in here.

I think that throughout these hundred pages people have been thinking of how the stealth fleet would engage just like any other fleet after they decloak. Yet, the more i think about it the more i disagree.

If the DI is able to hit the shipyards to halt construction, which they can get in range of the shipyards without being spotted even, they achieve space superiority right there. The reason being is due to the fact that has already been heavily discussed, that being that the DI have vastly superior capital ships that can choose their battles. If neither of them have shipyards it becomes harder but due to the stealth tactics i feel the DI can whittle them down bit by bit.

For Example.

After they destroy the shipyards they must contend with the larger fleet which likely has taken out their own shipyards. The ships that each have are concrete now with no reinforcements. Both have competent commanders however, the DI have the upper hand because they are never forced into a battle, they can always choose when, where, and how. They could, for example, expand upon their fighter superiority by dealing with the smaller ships first which will allow them to run rampant. How i would think they would do this, is to get their stealth vessels bellow the bulk of their anti-fighter/frigate/corvette ships so that if the larger ships were to open fire, they would risk hitting their own ships, and un-stealth, opening fire solely on these smaller vessels. The key however, is to have each ship with pr-programmed hyperspace coordinates for them to regroup at, and NOT deploying their fighters. As soon as a ship's shields began to get low they would activate the hyper drive to the pre-set coordinates. Once half the fleet had already retreated in this manner the rest would do so as well to avoid intense focus fire. What this would cause to happen would be massive casualties to the frigates/corvettes/anti-fighter vessels of the AoW but minimal losses for the DI. After doing this once or twice they would be able to safely deploy their fighters in a traditional battle without them being easily countered.

Before this wouldn't be too effective since both sides could replace the lost ships, but with both shipyards lost this would tip in favor of the DI since it would take tremendous firepower to take down some of their key ships, which can escape easily enough. Instead of a conventional battle I believe Traya would opt for a strike such as this to use their greatest strength to weaken the AoW and when possible, decapitate it when they could no longer fight back.

Another thing they could do is use their stealth to knock out the AoW's engines on a bit of their capital ships then withdrawing back into stealth before they can be targeted then flanking again. Similar to how a Deception Assassin can open up with lots of damage, use force cloak, then open up again for similar damage. Only, these ships do not have cool downs for such things.
"What I unveil today will mark a new era for the Empire. We will be able to decimate the Rebels just as we did the Jedi Knights. At last the Emperor's war will be filled only with the glory and beauty of decisive victory."―Rom Mohc Never force a droid to think without numbers...

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
02.22.2014 , 10:49 PM | #1008
Quote: Originally Posted by Silenceo View Post
If I may chime in here.

I think that throughout these hundred pages people have been thinking of how the stealth fleet would engage just like any other fleet after they decloak. Yet, the more i think about it the more i disagree.

If the DI is able to hit the shipyards to halt construction, which they can get in range of the shipyards without being spotted even, they achieve space superiority right there. The reason being is due to the fact that has already been heavily discussed, that being that the DI have vastly superior capital ships that can choose their battles. If neither of them have shipyards it becomes harder but due to the stealth tactics i feel the DI can whittle them down bit by bit.

For Example.

After they destroy the shipyards they must contend with the larger fleet which likely has taken out their own shipyards. The ships that each have are concrete now with no reinforcements. Both have competent commanders however, the DI have the upper hand because they are never forced into a battle, they can always choose when, where, and how. They could, for example, expand upon their fighter superiority by dealing with the smaller ships first which will allow them to run rampant. How i would think they would do this, is to get their stealth vessels bellow the bulk of their anti-fighter/frigate/corvette ships so that if the larger ships were to open fire, they would risk hitting their own ships, and un-stealth, opening fire solely on these smaller vessels. The key however, is to have each ship with pr-programmed hyperspace coordinates for them to regroup at, and NOT deploying their fighters. As soon as a ship's shields began to get low they would activate the hyper drive to the pre-set coordinates. Once half the fleet had already retreated in this manner the rest would do so as well to avoid intense focus fire. What this would cause to happen would be massive casualties to the frigates/corvettes/anti-fighter vessels of the AoW but minimal losses for the DI. After doing this once or twice they would be able to safely deploy their fighters in a traditional battle without them being easily countered.

Before this wouldn't be too effective since both sides could replace the lost ships, but with both shipyards lost this would tip in favor of the DI since it would take tremendous firepower to take down some of their key ships, which can escape easily enough. Instead of a conventional battle I believe Traya would opt for a strike such as this to use their greatest strength to weaken the AoW and when possible, decapitate it when they could no longer fight back.
What you are forgetting is that AoW has intridictors and are capable of setting up a blockade to prevent them from getting to the AoW worlds and shipyards as well as forgetting one of those ship yards is hapes with the transistor mists. Ships in hypserspace cant cloak so an intradictor pulls them out they arent cloaked trying to go through these blockades, even if they cloak and pop up the intradictor mines of the Hapans dont need the hapan ships to still be functioning for them to work. So the AoW CAN and will prevent any running from the DI ships. Any place the Stealth fleet hits they will have to be able to destroy outright to get away and as i have shown with out the help of the OCF ships they cant do that.

the inteligence agencies means the AoW knows where the OCF ships and with out the OCF ships the DI doesnt have fighter superiority any way.


Essentially the DI ships CANT leave when ever they want to once the AoW decides to trap them they are trapped.

Silenceo's Avatar


Silenceo
02.22.2014 , 10:59 PM | #1009
How many interdiction ships do they have and how strong are their shields? Can't remember how many it was decided that they have, nor what size/strength they were off the top of my head.

The main thing that makes interdiction ships effective are that they can be safely guarded in the rear of a fleet against most traditional fleets. I don't think i have to tell you guys, after all these pages, that the DI fleet is not traditional at all. I might go so far as to say that these ships may be among some of the first targeted precisely because they stop them from using their hit and run strategies combined with their superior firepower *ship-ship comparatively* from working. Even if the shipyards were not taken out it will take time to make more of them or to convince the supplier to give them more considering how quickly they would have lost the last ones.

Edited: That reminds me, was there some technology roadblock that stopped these DI stealth ships from re-entering stealth soon after opening fire? So that before the AoW ships are able to turn towards them enough *capital ships tend to not turn too well* they would already be gone, and the AoW perhaps a few ships lighter. Since doing so would allow them to play whack-a-mole with the AoW fleet, but a game of Whack-a-mole where the mole has the potential to kill some of the players.
"What I unveil today will mark a new era for the Empire. We will be able to decimate the Rebels just as we did the Jedi Knights. At last the Emperor's war will be filled only with the glory and beauty of decisive victory."―Rom Mohc Never force a droid to think without numbers...

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
02.22.2014 , 11:13 PM | #1010
Quote: Originally Posted by Silenceo View Post
How many interdiction ships do they have and how strong are their shields? Can't remember how many it was decided that they have, nor what size/strength they were off the top of my head.

The main thing that makes interdiction ships effective are that they can be safely guarded in the rear of a fleet against most traditional fleets. I don't think i have to tell you guys, after all these pages, that the DI fleet is not traditional at all. I might go so far as to say that these ships may be among some of the first targeted precisely because they stop them from using their hit and run strategies combined with their superior firepower *ship-ship comparatively* from working. Even if the shipyards were not taken out it will take time to make more of them or to convince the supplier to give them more considering how quickly they would have lost the last ones.

That reminds me, was there some technology roadblock that stopped these DI stealth ships from re-entering stealth after opening fire? Since doing so would allow them to play whack-a-mole with the AoW fleet.
The AoW doesnt have traditional Intradictor ships the GADF and the Hapan ships these ships were actually capable of 1v1 fighting Imp II's especially with the upgrades to shields giving them Mon cal shield type and their interdiction feilds were also not traditional they didnt have to be active to work since they were mines the ships put down.

As for the number it was around 18 of them total, and they never re-stealthed the time they fought empire and the republic so I am not sure they can in the middle of combat.

Edit: the slow turning on the capital's is only for the biggest ships i have all the rest of my capitals were actually pretty quick also Crystal gravfield trap