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A different look at PvP Balancing

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
A different look at PvP Balancing

MasterApollo's Avatar


MasterApollo
12.15.2014 , 03:39 PM | #1
Remove Bolster

This was the main aim of the original discussion from a few weeks back, we all know it doesn't work, every patch brings new and exciting ways to exploit what is fundamentally a broken system

Replace with a set of baseline stats
Rather than having to cope with the endless variations of gear types and having bolster suspectly replacing them with a buff to primary stat, endurance and then expertise, essentially the idea would be to ignore gear completely (until endgame pvp, I'll get to that) and give everyone lvl 10-60 a base set of stats for that class, pre-determined by BW. So a sage at lvl 10 will have the same as one at 59 once they walk into PvP. The only difference will be class skills unlocked and player skill/knowledge

Allows for easier balance
The only things BW would be working on for balance will be individual class skills and overall output from a discipline (be that dps/heal/tank). As they have 1 set of stats to adjust for a discipline (whole point of 3.0 is simplification really) the idea of just having the 1 class stat set will allow for a large amount of data to be gathered quickly on what skills do what.

Going forwards, the only 2 possibilities for balance are that either a single skill is over/under-powered (so tweak the skill) or the whole discipline is over/under-powered (combination of skill issues or tweak the stats).

You also then don't have to worry about stat power creep if you add new levels to the game, only how new skills in the disciplines have an effect, so you'd probably need to re-work low level brackets a touch but nothing major

More about skill, not gear
Makes PvP more about player knowledge of their disciplines rotation (something that's generally easy to pickup) then the more learn over time of knowing when best to use interrupts on someone, roots, stuns, knockbacks etc

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endgame progression

Generally speaking, this is where the idea became a bit unstuck when I first posted. Using expertise for endgame progression is fine, you can essentially have the pvp gear have just expertise on it and nothing else as the baseline stats are still applied. The point of contention is how much of a bonus should you get and should there be anything else in the mix?
  • Standard lvl 60 PvP Gear +4% for the whole set
  • Ranked lvl 60 PvP Gear +8% for the whole set and set bonuses

That was the idea that was put out there to generally no complaints. You could argue with having the set bonuses on the standard gear too like it is now, as well as increasing overall effectiveness of expertise. Again though, it's an easier thing to look at when there's not a million different other things in play from bolster.

It also gets back to the simpler idea expertise in that you only get it from gear as you take part in pvp and it gives you a bit more damage survivability while meaning a player without pvp gear can still outplay you (in theory but if you have the gear you'd like to think you'd know what you'd be doing hehehe).

That's essentially it. Feel free to pop thoughts on, I'll elaborate on things as needed and re-word stuff if it doesn't make sense

tokianow's Avatar


tokianow
12.15.2014 , 04:08 PM | #2
imbalanced pvp is best pvp for me u get rekt u work on ur gear u get rekt by sorcerer u roll a sorcerer or find a way to beat him . pvp in 90 % games will never be balanced. mayby only in fifa or cs . thats what makes it challenging and fun

MasterApollo's Avatar


MasterApollo
12.15.2014 , 05:13 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by tokianow View Post
imbalanced pvp is best pvp for me u get rekt u work on ur gear u get rekt by sorcerer u roll a sorcerer or find a way to beat him . pvp in 90 % games will never be balanced. mayby only in fifa or cs . thats what makes it challenging and fun
You want a challenge? How about knowing that the only difference between your opponent is how they play the class. You wonder why these MOBAs and FPS games have big money tournaments for PvP? Its because the only difference is how the players play, not some random bug or some gear that has taken months to grind up.

and people wonder why there isn't a serious pvp community anymore...

Seriously though, from posting this on reddit too it seems like this system might worked best for unranked. It's meant to be more casual, less serious, no need for uber grinds and just playing for fun.

If ranked had progression, I'd equate it to folks needing fancier gear to be able to play HM/NiM ops in PvE. So the serious guys who are bothered about the gear can still queue for that, then those who just want to play for fun without having to wonder which bugged bolster lvl 55-59 player is going to stomp them

tokianow's Avatar


tokianow
12.15.2014 , 05:30 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterApollo View Post
You want a challenge? How about knowing that the only difference between your opponent is how they play the class. You wonder why these MOBAs and FPS games have big money tournaments for PvP? Its because the only difference is how the players play, not some random bug or some gear that has taken months to grind up.

and people wonder why there isn't a serious pvp community anymore...

Seriously though, from posting this on reddit too it seems like this system might worked best for unranked. It's meant to be more casual, less serious, no need for uber grinds and just playing for fun.

If ranked had progression, I'd equate it to folks needing fancier gear to be able to play HM/NiM ops in PvE. So the serious guys who are bothered about the gear can still queue for that, then those who just want to play for fun without having to wonder which bugged bolster lvl 55-59 player is going to stomp them
but this is MMO u cant rely only on knowing what enemy can do to u his abilities and stuff like lol / dota . here u have a character that u invest time in so u can make him stronger just like it always was in mmo's

varietasplus's Avatar


varietasplus
12.15.2014 , 05:36 PM | #5
Ever since they claimed the black-yellow fortitude crystal most popular,
I ignore any conclusion they come to based on raw data.

fdbgjfdhjgkjdhsg's Avatar


fdbgjfdhjgkjdhsg
12.15.2014 , 05:50 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterApollo View Post
One of the big jokes with 3.0 was that BW number crunch themselves internally (no stopwatch!) to give a set of ideals. In simple terms it means that if person has x stats it will produce y. That got me thinking that BW need to look at PvP balance differently.

What's the ideal? Well, if it comes down to it, the "perfect" scenario on a simple 1v1 of two people, same class, level and gear it comes down to the individual skill of the player in terms of position, when to use stuns, push-backs interrupts etc. Essentially: skill of the player of that class.

So, how about replace bolster with a stat normaliser? BW already has the ideal numbers (apparently) so all you'd need is an overriding passive when entering PvP which gave you your classes those ideal stats, then go at it. The main positive is balance. No longer struggling to balance with PvE and PvP as the stat normaliser would allow BW to adjust things at their end just for PvP.

Is it a perfect idea as a replacement? Well it's mainly just focussing on balance but for it to work you'd probably need to effectively re-work the pvp reward system and expertise wouldn't be needed. The positive? PvP no longer based on who has the latest way to boost up with bolster, becomes about using your build and focusing on the objectives.

Feel free to add positives/negatives, would love to discuss the idea further
I totally agree. It would eliminate that damn gear grind too.
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MasterApollo's Avatar


MasterApollo
12.16.2014 , 04:15 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by tokianow View Post
but this is MMO u cant rely only on knowing what enemy can do to u his abilities and stuff like lol / dota . here u have a character that u invest time in so u can make him stronger just like it always was in mmo's
Don't get me wrong, the main downside of a system like this is you'd have to come up with a different system for progression to make the character "feel" something. Yet if you're talking about PvP and investing in your character, surely having rewards based off a fair system would give more worth?

I'm just throwing stuff out there and it seems to be very 50/50 from a lot of folks here and on reddit but one thing is for sure, most people agree bolster is a broken system

MasterApollo's Avatar


MasterApollo
12.16.2014 , 04:18 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by fdbgjfdhjgkjdhsg View Post
I totally agree. It would eliminate that damn gear grind too.
I've heard that from a number of folks who like to queue for ranked but are casual players, so maybe I was wrong in assuming it would be fine leaving in progression for ranked play.

I'm not 100% on what the alternative is really. Some folks on reddit said my idea is similar to what they do on GW2 for pvp, so I'm going to have a look at their setup to see. Either way, I'm sure having some sort of rewards/progression based on a more fair and balanced system would be better for PvP.

MasterApollo's Avatar


MasterApollo
12.16.2014 , 04:20 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by varietasplus View Post
Ever since they claimed the black-yellow fortitude crystal most popular,
I ignore any conclusion they come to based on raw data.
In fairness, I've used that crystal on every character I've ever created and I'm probably not the only one

For the sake of the number crunchers out there, there'd be nothing stopping BW if they did this from releasing the numbers they would apply to each class to let the community mull them over. Then you'd have complete transparency when something was changed for PvP balance too.

Nekkma's Avatar


Nekkma
12.16.2014 , 04:38 AM | #10
I found this idea horribly implemented in GW2. Playing structured pvp and wvw feelt like different games because of how limited your stat choices in structured where.

If the system you propose would take into account the choice of mods, armoring etc I would prefer this over the current bolster. Only as a baseline bolster though, pvp gear should still give a slight advantage.

Additionally, the stats is a minor issue compared to the other balance problems this game has.