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new PvE parsing idea for 2.5...


countpopeula's Avatar


countpopeula
12.08.2013 , 01:46 AM | #71
Quote: Originally Posted by greg_biochem View Post
The parses that make the leaderboard are viewed by more than just the top contenders. The parses represent each class/spec played at its highest level, and the results are inevitably used by less experienced players to decide which spec they'd like to learn and use in operations. The classes/specs that get a DPS boost from the armor debuff against the dummy will get the same boost in an operation. If Arsenal gets "screwed by Pyro" in the presence of an armor debuff, that information should be made apparent to a casual viewer of the leaderboard.

And yes, Snipers would get a small DPS boost from having an extra GCD every 45 seconds, but classes that cannot supply their own armor debuff will get an even larger boost; I'm not sure why you're so concerned about Snipers...

Ultimately, the argument could be made the other way too: Some specs benefit more than others without a provided armor debuff (Snipers ), and parses were unbalanced BEFORE the modulator was introduced.
If that was the case then everyone would roll Rollbang Snipes The only people who really matter in those threads are the ones who are posting numbers, people peeking in and saying "ERMAGERD DAT DEEPS GIMME CLASS NAO" probably won't be able to play the class to it's potential anyways. If you don't know classes well enough to know which benefit from additional AR, then you really don't have any business using the top parse thread for a basis of study. I'm not overly concerned with Snipers or anything really, I'm just trying to keep a fair viewpoint for all classes/specs. I wouldn't want to have to switch from Arsenal to Pyro just because AR changed the game and now I can't compete, the same as I don't want to have to parse in Anni just because AR boosts the spec's already broken parses to the point where Carnage can't contend (damage and healing double procing SA/mainstat relics is sooooo due for a fix), or make Juggernauts even less relevant.
Ranick
hmd MAGENTA

countpopeula's Avatar


countpopeula
12.08.2013 , 01:49 AM | #72
Quote: Originally Posted by emania View Post
Spoiler
Agreed that the percents remain the same. We're not talking percentages though, we're talking an actual numerical value, which is TTK. The TTK differential shifts in proportion to the health pool (length of fight if you want) as the percent remains constant. You're essentially arguing my point for me but still disagreeing, this is getting pointless.
Ranick
hmd MAGENTA

emania's Avatar


emania
12.08.2013 , 02:07 AM | #73
Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
Agreed that the percents remain the same. We're not talking percentages though, we're talking an actual numerical value, which is TTK. The TTK differential shifts in proportion to the health pool (length of fight if you want) as the percent remains constant. You're essentially arguing my point for me but still disagreeing, this is getting pointless.
you're overall point is that this will allow execute classes to rise up the leaderboards my point is thats not true at all

Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
, you're going to see execute classes start pooping on non-ex classes as we progress to higher and higher hit pools
Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
The problem with 1.5mil health is that you're going to see a noticable discrepancy between execute talent/ability classes and non-execute classes. 30% range means another 150k to eat through, execute classes will dominate this health range. I think 1mil, no armor debuff is the way to go
everything i have written is to try and show you that this is not true i am running out of ideas how i can prove this to you

time to kill = total damage divided by dps
total damage= 1 million or 1.5 million depending on the dummy

since the hp amount has no effect on dps from executes as shown in one of my previous posts. there is no way a execute class will make it onto the leader board or pass anyone else on a 1.5 million hp parse who they wouldn't have beaten on a 1 million hp parse

the difference between any 2 dps's will seem larger with 1.5 million hp then 1 million hp in terms of ttk, but this has nothing to do with under 30% abilities and will not change the rankings at all.

countpopeula's Avatar


countpopeula
12.08.2013 , 02:15 AM | #74
Quote: Originally Posted by emania View Post
you're overall point is that this will allow execute classes to rise up the leaderboards my point is thats not true at all

the difference between any 2 dps's will seem larger with 1.5 million hp then 1 million hp in terms of ttk, but this has nothing to do with under 30% abilities and will not change the rankings at all.
This is not what I'm saying at all dude. The TTK differential will give a perceived advantage to the execute classes. The percents won't change, but we're not posting percents on those threads, we're posing actual hard numbers, not ratios. People will look at the numbers and say "300sec TTK vs 310sec TTK, not too much of a difference. Oh wait, higher hitpoint dummy, 360sec TTK vs 390sec TTK? 30 extra seconds? That's significant". They're not going to look and see that the ratios of DPS are the same, they're going to look at the hard numbers. A 100 point DPS gain in a 1mil vs 1.5mil fight translates to an extra 8 seconds or so in the examples I posted. The class's DPS overall or as a % based ratio of damage done does not change, but the remaining hard number increases as the duration of the fight does. This leaves a larger number of actual hit points on the mob, meaning more for the other raid members to have to clean up.
Ranick
hmd MAGENTA

Emperor-Norton's Avatar


Emperor-Norton
12.08.2013 , 02:32 AM | #75
Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
And you aren't getting what I'm saying. From a DPS alone standpoint, that is to say, using DPS as the measurement standard for who is the best, no, the HP pools don't change anything except force the player to sit there ~50% longer to get the same number. Why the hell would we want to do that when by your own admittance via your arguments we get the same DPS number with either dummy? My point was that by switching to a HP pool standard rather than a set time limit standard, we need to switch to a TTK measurement standard rather than the DPS standard. Otherwise, what's the point of even going with the HP dummy? We should just stick with a 5 minute parse or up it to 6 minutes to get into execute range if we're arbitrarily going to do that. In that scenario, the higher your DPS, the more time you get in execute, further boosting your DPS. Seems dumb to me. Time standard = DPS standard, HP standard = TTK standard in my opinion.
No, you aren't getting this, you were arguing the entirely wrong point to the guy. Nor are you getting I am not refuting your Argument. I am saying you were arguing completely different issues with him.

On another note, I typically have trouble keeping good RNG past 4 minutes, or a lot of times bad RNG will not persist beyond that point. The difference between the two is that it makes getting a lucky crit parse vastly harder and the longer length favors people that know their rotations better.
Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. When I said class inherent, I meant abilities. Adrenals and Stims aren't a class ability, are universally available, and thus should be allowed. If you can't activate it yourself on that character, you shouldn't be allowed to use it is what I meant. Armor Rends may be universally available, but it changes the game so much that I think it's unfair. As Falver's post used to track, the adjusted DPS scalar with AR benefits some classes/specs more than others, so it stands to reason that it is not universally fair. An adrenal is a set boost that provides the same bonus to any class that uses it against any other class. An Armor Rend does not, it benefits some classes more than others. Snipes get an extra GCD every 45sec in their rotation and don't have to watch their energy as closely, Arsenal gets screwed against Pyro, either way you're boosting some classes/specs against others. Really nothing to argue here, it's unbalancing and shouldn't be up for debate.
The leaderboards were still arranged based on who had the highest Dummy parse (so a Parse that did more on Dummy, but less on Scalar was still the top). Scalars were just an off to the side thing to note. I don't see how they disadvantaged anyone beyond telling people what to actually expect. I also always assumed the reason for no Armor Debuffs was finding a person to continually debuff a dummy or use Inspiration for dummy parsing was a huge advantage to whoever could get someone to do that. So the current system was done.

On the contrary, Bioware clearly balances DPS specs based on how well they work in an Op. How about I exactly quote the Devs:
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Unfortunately, because target dummies never drop in health you cannot use them as a 1:1 replacement for Operation boss encounters. Only certain specs (Rage/Focus is not one of them, but Carnage/Combat is) can use execute abilities on a target dummy. It is also unlikely that you are testing on a target dummy with your own personal armor-debuffer (which you should definitely have against a real raid boss). So that 9% gap you may be seeing on target dummies is closer to approximately 4% in reality.
So if the current Dummy system was a circumstance of the times, how about I say this current system inherently and unfairly advantages Snipers, Mercs, Guardian, and Combat Sentinels over all other classes beyond what they are intended to do comparatively as DPS and this new system ensures a more fair picture of DPS specs to compete. Especially since DPS specs are balanced based on Armor Debuffs and Execute. Considering the fact that there are accounted for I see absolutely no compelling reason not to use them. Your reason is tradition, which only exists because we had no way to do what we have now. And darn you Red'october for making this point while I was typing this post.

Also, you ignored the fact that different Classes don't compete against one another on the Leaderboard. No Guardian loses their spot over this. The only people that may lose a spot is Arsenal (they were losing badly anyway) or Carnage. And all this highlights is how classes actually DPS. You are the only one I have seen against debuffs, and the fact that your spec is one that stands to lose this may seem to be for selfish reasons. In other words, it seems you are complaining since you don't want to get beaten by Annihilation again, because you want to parse in a way that inherently advantages you, which is too obvious based on this:
Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
I wouldn't want to have to switch from Arsenal to Pyro just because AR changed the game and now I can't compete, the same as I don't want to have to parse in Anni just because AR boosts the spec's already broken parses to the point where Carnage can't contend (damage and healing double procing SA/mainstat relics is sooooo due for a fix), or make Juggernauts even less relevant.
That is also considering that the devs intend for Annihilation to be better than Combat at sustained DPS. I also want to see your parses of "/ezmode" Annihilation.
Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
There is no reason to bring in which dummy to use, the MK5 Ops dummy is the standard because it's level 55, has the most armor, and provides realistic feedback. What you do while instanced is a completely different thread, I don't see a reason to push this any further.
... Realistic feedback based on feedback from what DPS can be expected in an Operation. I don't think you are getting this, so let me say loud and clear: The Ops Dummy is used since it mimics the Armor of a Raid Boss, so at its most basic level Dummy Parsing is exactly about the DPS you can expect to do in an Operation if you were able to DPS with full uptime. There is no inherent reason to go with the Ops Dummy especially since it gives lower numbers (if that is the point of the thread), only that it mimics Ops Bosses. In other words, the point of this is at its core, these threads are about how much classes can DPS in Ops, not how much they could possibly do alone.

Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
For any of the specs with Mara/Sent, BT isn't as significant compared to Berserk since 2.0 set bonuses. Rage benefits the least and BT is about on the level of using Berserk, but for Anni and Carnage using Berserk is a higher net gain. I don't know what you're talking about with parses, I've never once used a BT at the end of a parse that I've posted because it's against the unspoken rules, on top of not netting as much DPS. Different discussion for a different thread so we can just stop here, but I've tested it and not just number crunched, it works out in favor of Berserk for a solo dummy parse except for in a double stacked opener.
I checked your parses and I was indeed mistaken. My apologies.

Oh, I did the Math. I calculated how much gain you would get from Bloodthirst, how much a Watchman Sentinel can expect from Zen, and how much Weaponmaster affected DPS. The fact is you are wrong (at least for Annihilation). Assuming you have a 1:1 choice and assuming your Dot's wouldn't have critted at_all_without Berserk (an extraordinarily unlikely occurrence), it is still a 1000 Damage loss (that is best case for your scenario). I don't know what gave you this notion, but it is wrong. And for the record, Marauders can now generate Fury with Bloodthirst up. I hope that was the issue.

Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
For the discussion point that the devs put the AR debuff into the game to balance things, you're reading way too far into it. It's just another credit sink and shiny object to keep people's waning attention to this game.
Really, a 1k object is a credit sink. Considering how many people already had that droid I don't see the big advantage. A 1k object that shows up right before the next round of Class Questions that were directly driven by Dummy DPS and were a debacle for Bioware. I believe I have yet to encounter a single person against Armor Debuff sans you, I think your opinion is severely the minority.
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emania's Avatar


emania
12.08.2013 , 02:39 AM | #76
Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
This is not what I'm saying at all dude. The TTK differential will give a perceived advantage to the execute classes. The percents won't change, but we're not posting percents on those threads, we're posing actual hard numbers, not ratios. People will look at the numbers and say "300sec TTK vs 310sec TTK, not too much of a difference. Oh wait, higher hitpoint dummy, 360sec TTK vs 390sec TTK? 30 extra seconds? That's significant". They're not going to look and see that the ratios of DPS are the same, they're going to look at the hard numbers. A 100 point DPS gain in a 1mil vs 1.5mil fight translates to an extra 8 seconds or so in the examples I posted. The class's DPS overall or as a % based ratio of damage done does not change, but the remaining hard number increases as the duration of the fight does. This leaves a larger number of actual hit points on the mob, meaning more for the other raid members to have to clean up.
But it's not the execute classes that will have the advantage its any class with higher dps. it in no way benefits one class or spec from the next if they do the same dps.

you are correct that a higher dps will gain more of a perceived advantage from the 1.5 mill in terms of ttk but that is independent of whether that class has executes or not. that's all I'm saying.

countpopeula's Avatar


countpopeula
12.08.2013 , 03:04 AM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by emania View Post
But it's not the execute classes that will have the advantage its any class with higher dps. it in no way benefits one class or spec from the next if they do the same dps.

you are correct that a higher dps will gain more of a perceived advantage from the 1.5 mill in terms of ttk but that is independent of whether that class has executes or not. that's all I'm saying.
Executes are universally a DPS gain. If there is a class/spec where it is not, please let me know so I can NOT play that one . Once we hit execute range when I'm on my Sniper or Marauder, my numbers jump up 3-5% if I play it clean. To me that signifies that execute abilities boost DPS, and thus, by your own concession above gives those classes an advantage over the ones without.
Ranick
hmd MAGENTA

Emperor-Norton's Avatar


Emperor-Norton
12.08.2013 , 03:08 AM | #78
Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
Executes are universally a DPS gain. If there is a class/spec where it is not, please let me know so I can NOT play that one . Once we hit execute range when I'm on my Sniper or Marauder, my numbers jump up 3-5% if I play it clean. To me that signifies that execute abilities boost DPS, and thus, by your own concession above gives those classes an advantage over the ones without.
And DPS is balanced around Executes and Armor Debuffs. So any DPS discrepancies are skill, luck, or imbalance based.
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countpopeula's Avatar


countpopeula
12.08.2013 , 03:16 AM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by Emperor-Norton View Post
XXThe leaderboards were still arranged based on who had the highest Dummy parse (so a Parse that did more on Dummy, but less on Scalar was still the top). Scalars were just an off to the side thing to note. I don't see how they disadvantaged anyone beyond telling people what to actually expect. I also always assumed the reason for no Armor Debuffs was finding a person to continually debuff a dummy or use Inspiration was a huge unfair favor to who could get someone to do that. So the current system was done. However now that

XXOn the contrary, Bioware clearly balances DPS specs based on how well they work in an Op. How about I exactly quote the Devs:

XXAlso, you ignored the fact that different Classes don't compete against one another on the Leaderboard. No Guardian loses their spot over this. The only people that may lose a spot is Arsenal (they were losing badly anyway) or Carnage. And all this highlights is how classes actually DPS. You are the only one I have seen against debuffs, and the fact that your spec is one that stands to lose this may seem to be for selfish reasons. In other words, it seems you are complaining since you don't want to get beaten by Annihilation again, because you want to parse in a way that inherently advantages you, which is too obvious based on this:
This wall of text was too much for me to care to read, here's what I felt was relevant

XXThat's really up for debate. I've taken it as a "You use what you can bring to the fight". If other people took the rules a different way, that's their viewpoint. When it clearly states you cannot use an armor debuff your class does not provide, I take that as what I said just previously, you don't have it, you can't use it.
XX They balance specs based off of PvP performance with some outstanding looks into PvE if they feel something is wildly out of place. a dev told me this at the NYC Cantina Tour. Explaining Sin/Shadow DPS is a different story, they didn't have a response for that one so I'm assuming it's also to avoid PvP imbalances.
XXThat point was to satiate the viewpoint that players look at the leaderboards as a comparison between classes, which I myself do to a certain point as well. Juggernauts and Arsenal Mercs are gonna be sour as hell, I don't see a reason anyone should have to endure what Sin/Shadows have Everyone wants to use Armor Debuffs because they want to see big numbers. There are still those of us who prefer that AR be restricted to classes with those abilities, just because there's less of us doesn't mean our points are any less valid.

I'm glad you feel the need to resort to personal attacks, I can start parsing in Anni just to prove a point if you like I'm sure your math works out the way you say it does, however my testing showed differently. This was back in 1.2+, but there was no change to the functionality of Anni other than Anni/Merciless being up more often. Perhaps 2.0 changed the game that much, I'll test it if I ever care to get around to it and if I'm wrong then I'm wrong, won't be afraid to admit it. I've already told you that if Anni parses better, I'll run Anni. Not a big deal, I played it from 1.1 to just prior to 2.0 and did just fine maintaining world competitive numbers. I still run it in some 16man fights, self heals OP for Hateful. I'm flattered you find me such a threat that you research me by the way, <3
Ranick
hmd MAGENTA

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Ardarell_Solo
12.10.2013 , 11:19 AM | #80
Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
I'm flattered you find me such a threat
Let's say you kind of contribute to being perceived in such ways. And if one visits the forums from time to time you won't fail to notice, even without checking your latest post history ^^

it's kind of polemics ftw and a lot of times, I feel, there's much disregard for the person you're talking to and quite a lot of high-handedness going on. That's why I refrain from contributing to threads you are dominating, but that may just be me...
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