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Guardian vs Shadow

ashil's Avatar


ashil
06.10.2013 , 09:24 AM | #1
I've done lots of searching on the forums but it seems all info is from launch up to RotHC.

I'm having a hard time deciding between Guardian and Shadow. I'm a newly returned player and am fascinated by both these classes.

My main is a scoundrel so I think something with a tank possibility sounds great. I'm interested in all parts of the game, pvp, pve, questing and story.

I was hoping for some opinions from the experts! Which do you find more fun? Which do you see more of around the world? Which is more versatile to all aspects of the game?

Thanks!

GeckoOBac's Avatar


GeckoOBac
06.10.2013 , 09:32 AM | #2
As far as pure tanking goes, they're both quite viable, though shadow is quite difficult to gear at lvl cap and is slightly more difficult to play at its fullest.

DPS wise, shadow suffered a bit from the last patch and while it's still viable for any kind of content, it's not as good as it was before. On the other hand the guardian gets two excellent dps threes, one mainly single target and the other prevalently AoE based (though still performing well enough in a single target environment).

Shadow has more PVE utility, whether tank or dps, due to stealth mostly.
In PVP both classes are quite good, their roles varying wildly depending how you spec em. They both have an impressive array of tools, as far as utility goes, to be used in pvp.

In the end, they're quite different classes (albeit both being capable of fulfilling the same roles). If I were to choose I'd go Guardian just because skills and armor look better. But truth to be told, I have one level capped guardian and one level capped shadow so I didn't really choose at all :P
Light Knights: Gecko - Syed - Vor'sann - Joya
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Gelgaroth's Avatar


Gelgaroth
06.12.2013 , 03:52 AM | #3
Shadow all the way for me. And this is mostly coming from a tank aspect myself. Shadow seems to have better aoe agro control, gets healer earlier on, which is also helpful (because while c2-n2 is a healer, he's just meh). *** far as gearing them, they're both quite easy, especially in mod-able gear, for me at least. They both have access to either tanky, or more "dps-y" mods. But I prefer shadow's mobility a lot more, especially when it comes to running heroics and fps (mostly heroics) for commendations, as they can just skip through all the unneccesary. And well, force speed wins versus leap for me. I'd rather have that speed boost that I can use anywhere, rather than a leap. And they make crit builds more viable, if you invest about half into the tank tree, to get particle acceleration, then half into another dps tree (but make sure you get the melee crit buff from the balance tree (boosts melee crit by 9% whenever you get a force crit, which easier to do with particle acceleration procing a 100% project crit)). And shadow has multiple damage types, whereas guardian has 2 I believe (melee and some elemental fire stuff). For shadow I count 3, internal, force, and melee. Guardians do have a higher natural damage reduction than shadows, but shadows also have higher shield chance, if spec'd to anyway.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
06.12.2013 , 01:00 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Gelgaroth View Post
And shadow has multiple damage types, whereas guardian has 2 I believe (melee and some elemental fire stuff). For shadow I count 3, internal, force, and melee.
You're conflating attack type and damage type.

There are 4 damage types, split into 2 categories: kinetic/energy (all weapons deal this kind of damage) and internal/elemental. They are split into said categories because the damage types behave exactly the same as the other in their pair: damage reduction to kinetic is the same as to energy and damage reduction is the same on elemental as it is to internal, for both players *and* NPCs.

There are also 4 attack types, once again, split into 2 categories: melee/ranged (these are spotted by looking for "weapon damage" in their tooltip as well as their floating combat text showing up in white) and Force/Tech (these are spotted by looking for the specifically mentioned damage type rather than simply "weapon damage" in their tooltip as well as their floating combat text showing up in yellow).

Now, there is *some* interaction between attack types and damage types. The first of which is that there are no melee/ranged internal/elemental attacks in the game (they are theoretically possible by creating a weapon that deals I/E damage, but none of these have been implemented anywhere). The second of which is in which mitigation mechanics apply to the given attack: all melee/ranged attacks apply Defense to determine their end accuracy (which can be gained through numerous methods, including Defense rating from gear) whereas Force/Tech attacks apply Resistance to determine their end accuracy (which can only be gained through talents, set bonuses, and a few CDs that apply a bonus for a short duration; there is no way to increase your Resistance via gearing); all melee attacks (including the purely theoretical M/R I/E attacks) and Force/Tech attacks that deal kinetic/energy damage can be Shielded whereas no internal/elemental attacks cannot be (this isn't important when fighting NPCs because they don't have shield chances, except in a *single* instance that I've found).

Something else that should be addressed, since it is relatively important to the discussion. Since F/T internal/elemental damage gets to bypass pretty much every mitigation mechanism on the planet (no real applicable resistance chance since those are, at best, 5%; cannot be shielded; apply I/E resistance, which is normally 0% for NPCs and tops out at 23% for players, and only tanks get that high), internal/elemental damage is weighed heavier than kinetic/energy damage where balance in concerned. In essence, when an attack is being designed, if the attack deals internal/elemental damage, it will *naturally* deal substantially less damage to account for having the "superior" damage type.

With this in mind, it doesn't matter which part of an attack type pairing is or which part of a damage type pairing. There is no real distinction between melee and ranged (the only case you'll find is in enemies in cover, which gain a 20% bonus to ranged defense but nothing to melee defense) and no real distinction between Force and Tech (the only case you'll find is that some debuffs are labelled Force or Tech and, as such, can only be cleansed by the relevant Force or Tech classes); kinetic/energy attacks are designed to have higher base damage than internal/elemental attacks.

Ergo, it doesn't matter *what* your spread of attack and damage types is since it's all really a moot point. If you really care about your attack and damage types (for largely arbitrary reasons), Guardians have a single ranged attack (Saber Throw), a *vast* majority of melee attacks, and a few Force attacks; they have a *single* attack that deals elemental damage (Plasma Brand; Blade Storm and Overhead Slash get to apply a bit of elemental damage as a *DoT* when using them, but it's not their base damage type; these are only available through Vigilance, however, so only *those* Guardians get any elemental damage at all) whereas *everything else* is going to be K/E. Shadows, on the other hand, have no ranged attacks and a roughly even split between Force and melee attacks; for damage types, there are a scant few attacks that deal internal damage (Force Breach while in Combat Technique or Shadow Technique as well as the procs for those 2 stances and Sever Force; this means that every spec gets some source of internal damage, though it is in a tiny minority of total damage dealt) whereas pretty much everything else you'll do is kinetic/energy.
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GeckoOBac's Avatar


GeckoOBac
06.12.2013 , 01:33 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Guardians have a single ranged attack (Saber Throw)
I was going to answer to that guy but then I thought "screw it, Kitru's going to do that anyway..."

But the quoted part is an error: even though it's capable of hitting at the full ranged of 30, Saber Throw is NOT a ranged attack: it's a melee attack. Same goes for Force Leap (surprisingly, it's not a force attack either).

While in the matter of damage the difference is mostly irrelevant, you must remember that the damage bonuses coming from stats apply only to a couple of effects... Melee/force or ranged/tech.
If Saber Throw were to be a ranged attack, it wouldn't get any damage bonus from mainstat.

I'm also fairly certain (say, 90% certain), that even stats that should apply regardless of type (like accuracy), only actually apply (through gearing at least, bolster may circumvent the issue) if the class has access to that kind of attack.
I say this because I had a wrong DG relic on my commando (force), and even though I had over 110% accuracy, the relic was still missing and having a roughly 5% base crit rate, which means that neither crit nor accuracy were influencing that relic.
Light Knights: Gecko - Syed - Vor'sann - Joya
Nightmare's Legion: Anhess - Avilus - Wittard - Schroedinger

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
06.12.2013 , 01:43 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by GeckoOBac View Post
But the quoted part is an error: even though it's capable of hitting at the full ranged of 30, Saber Throw is NOT a ranged attack: it's a melee attack.
I know that the back end difference between melee and ranged is virtually nonexistent (it's entirely possible to create a "melee" attack that has a 30m range or a "ranged" attack that has a 4m range), but I'm pretty sure that I read something that Saber Throw is a ranged attack rather than a melee attack. I *think* it had something to do with Sniper/Gunslinger cover applying against it. Once against, it's not like it matters though. Melee and ranged are, for all intents and purposes, identical.

Quote:
Same goes for Force Leap (surprisingly, it's not a force attack either).
I *still* find that more than a bit strange. I'm not sure if it was changed at some point in time, but I definitely remember there being a time when it threw up yellow flytext and said "kinetic damage". It's even stranger when you consider that Storm, which is supposed to be a clone of it, is a Tech attack.

Quote:
I'm also fairly certain (say, 90% certain), that even stats that should apply regardless of type (like accuracy), only actually apply (through gearing at least, bolster may circumvent the issue) if the class has access to that kind of attack.
This is just one of the reasons why I would *love* to get a hold of the back end of the game. So very many of these wonky little questions could be answered. Do the Jedi classes even *have* Tech or ranged attributes (which is suggested by the fact that Cunning and Aim are said to increase them even though they aren't visible)? Do the Tech classes have any Force or melee attributes? It would be one of those interesting questions to see answered.
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psandak's Avatar


psandak
06.12.2013 , 02:06 PM | #7
Getting back to the topic at hand: shadow vs guardian.

My main is a guardian tank and I have a level 30+ inquisitor assassin (Imp equivalent to Shadow) tank. Look at it this way, I continue to run my guardian through most PVE content even though there is very little I need from anything except Operations because I enjoy playing the class - I even have two sets of gear for him and invested in the field respec legacy perk, so that I can melee DPS if desired. On the other hand, I have all but stopped playing my Assassin tank (the only reason I have not deleted him is because I have his crew skills maxxed).

But that is just me. I constantly read on these forums how much fun the Assassin/Shadow class is. Just this past weekend I created a Sage TK spec and am loving every second of it.

GeckoOBac's Avatar


GeckoOBac
06.12.2013 , 02:12 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
I know that the back end difference between melee and ranged is virtually nonexistent (it's entirely possible to create a "melee" attack that has a 30m range or a "ranged" attack that has a 4m range), but I'm pretty sure that I read something that Saber Throw is a ranged attack rather than a melee attack. I *think* it had something to do with Sniper/Gunslinger cover applying against it. Once against, it's not like it matters though. Melee and ranged are, for all intents and purposes, identical.
Never heard of this and in the skill panel it's marked clearly as "melee". More than this I can't say


Quote:
I *still* find that more than a bit strange. I'm not sure if it was changed at some point in time, but I definitely remember there being a time when it threw up yellow flytext and said "kinetic damage". It's even stranger when you consider that Storm, which is supposed to be a clone of it, is a Tech attack.
I think it may be tied to the fact that force leap is a common skill and perhaps they were planning to make it deal an offhand blow for sentinels, then got forgotten (though the mental image of a force leap being "deflected" by a lightsaber is quite amusing). In the end, it doesn't really matter as the damage portion of the skill is ininfluent and even deflecting/resisting the skill won't prevent you to actually "charge" there.


Quote:
This is just one of the reasons why I would *love* to get a hold of the back end of the game. So very many of these wonky little questions could be answered. Do the Jedi classes even *have* Tech or ranged attributes (which is suggested by the fact that Cunning and Aim are said to increase them even though they aren't visible)? Do the Tech classes have any Force or melee attributes? It would be one of those interesting questions to see answered.
Yeah, it's interesting. My first guess would have been that you have all the stats and the offstats mostly are crap due to the lack of skill and stat boost from mainstat. The relic issue there though seems to point in another direction though, and it seems we only get the base values there, with perhaps the bonuses from the token amount of force power you get from will (and similar for force class with cunning), evening ignoring boost from completely generic stats like crit rating and accuracy.

Speaking of weird things: have you noticed that the exhaustion zone damage (probably all but CERTAINLY the one in the puddles around the TFB boss) proc the SA relics? Damage doesn't change though. Guess the character is used as the source of the damage.
Light Knights: Gecko - Syed - Vor'sann - Joya
Nightmare's Legion: Anhess - Avilus - Wittard - Schroedinger