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BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Powertechs/Vanguards PvP-wise?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Powertechs/Vanguards PvP-wise?

ceelaniri's Avatar


ceelaniri
05.27.2013 , 09:39 AM | #101
Quote: Originally Posted by Ajuntalee View Post
I think you guys base your claims on the numbers you see at the end of the battlegrounds, but these are just stats they are just one viewing angle and they don't encompass the whole picutre, sometimes having the enemy's number low and winning is better than having your own numbers high and losing, it certainly pays better anyways.

If you want to win your 1 vs 1 roll a duellist class, PT is not a duelling class it might have been in the past, we enjoyed it but I don't think that was really the purpose of the class, every body likes to win duels, but sometimes you have to accept that is not what your class was designed/intended for.

PT shine at decreasing enemy's mobility, this in turn improves our team damage potential, and reduces enemy damage potential, and it stack very well with our other tools specifically dedicated to debuffing enemy's raw damage output.
Your whole argument does not stand and has been debunked in many posts either in this thread or in others, no matter how much font and colour you use.

a) the assumption that because PT/VG can use a tank spec then their DPS spec shouldn't be on par with "pure" DPS classes isn't valid, these specs are just unrelated. Your point is disproved by the 2 other tank classes that are capable or hitting high number in pvp and killing people quickly and by extension, the healing capable classes (at least for sorc and merc). Moreover, what is the point of playing a dps spec from tank capable class or healing capable class like commando/ sorc/AS? In the end, there is no point in playing a de facto average spec.

b) in your "analysis", you do not put back into context the current situation of the PT/VG as opposed to other classes be them assassins/commando or sentinel. Since 2.0, you will have noticed that dmg has been tremendously increased for the majority of the class but a few like VG/PT and perhaps AS (not sure about this class and ultimately, it doesnt matter in this thread) as well well as the number of HP.

c) I do not see how PT/VG "shine at decreasing enemy's mobility" unless they use a sort of hybrid build. Full dps spec are barely making an impact compared to other classes. That s a fact.

Pyro spec are fragile, have low burst, average utility, average sustained dps: what would be the point of playing them?
AP spec are less fragile, have even less burst, slightly lower average sustained dps and higher utility thanks to reduced CD: again what would be the point of playing one compared to another class say assassin?
Masamoto Pentesilhea

TonyDragonflame's Avatar


TonyDragonflame
05.27.2013 , 10:15 AM | #102
Burst, baby, burst.
Without burst any dps class in pvp just useless piece of sh*t. And hell, pt tanks way worse for pvp than juggs and sin tanks. No guardian leap, no stealth, few cc... lolz.

So, R.I.P.
May the Force be with you!
Guardian vr 100 | Sentinel vr 93 | Scoundrel vr 91 | Vanguard vr 90 | Shadow v 85 | Guns v 75
Manhunter 140+k killed imps | TRE | ToFN

Ajuntalee's Avatar


Ajuntalee
05.27.2013 , 11:52 AM | #103
Quote:
Your whole argument does not stand and has been debunked in many posts either in this thread or in others, no matter how much font and colour you use.
So you say, I disagree period. My opinion weights the same as anyone else sorry. lets settle this with backing up the arguments right ?

Quote:
a) the assumption that because PT/VG can use a tank spec then their DPS spec shouldn't be on par with "pure" DPS classes isn't valid, these specs are just unrelated
.

WRONG,

all PT specs have a mass range taunt, a single ranged taunt, all 3 specs can use them without burning mana or GCDs

No Sniper spec have taunts.

Taunts are amongst the most powerfull pvp abilities in the game, there has to be a counter part to dps spe who can use them in favor of dps class/spe who can't use them.

See why the assumption is totally valid now, thanks. lets move on.


Quote:
Your point is disproved by the 2 other tank classes that are capable or hitting high number in pvp and killing people quickly and by extension, the healing capable classes (at least for sorc and merc).
HARDLY

PTs can hit big numbers in PvP charts too, sorry if that does not happen to you, maybee you can't or maybee you do something else that is usefull. Numbers are merely a ( fail ) attempt at summarising the WZ,
they don't show who forwent his dps to cap,
to go reinforce while others finished their kills 5 vs 3,
they don't show that someone chain snared the enemy's marauders/juggs/sins and kept whoever in his team stayed on the move alive
they don't show your efforts in dragging 3 ennemies in chain chasing you around the map while your team defending the objectives 7 vs 5 endlessly bodied the rest of their team
etc...

Pts do just the same in a diffrent style, if you play your pt the way sins play it fails , if you play a sin the way you play a PT it fails, same goes with the juggs.


Quote:
Moreover, what is the point of playing a dps spec from tank capable class or healing capable class like commando/ sorc/AS? In the end, there is no point in playing a de facto average spec.
then play your tank as a specialized tank, and roll a specialized dps class to dps if you don't like hybrids. proto PTs , pyro PTs, proto/pyro , shield/proto, shield/pyro are all hybrid dps/tanks like it or not, don't play them if you don't want totally you call.

But don't come here pretending you should have a snipers dps output just because you promise never to use your taunts in PVP, cause people like me will gladly take the sniper DPS and we will keep on taunting everytime it is up, and that wouldn't be fair to people who rolled a mara or a sniper.

Quote:
b) in your "analysis", you do not put back into context the current situation of the PT/VG as opposed to other classes be them assassins/commando or sentinel.
I would if i could but i can't, and neither can you or anyone else, so cut the crap and bring facts, everyone can find a truckload of people ranting their class/spe sucks compared to X and Y, and we can find 7 times ( 23 times) more people ranting said class ( spe) is OP.

Quote:
Since 2.0, you will have noticed that dmg has been tremendously increased for the majority of the class but a few like VG/PT and perhaps AS (not sure about this class and ultimately, it doesnt matter in this thread) as well well as the number of HP.
Very few classes have been buffed as much as PTs you are so biased. We are more damaging, more mobile and more resilient after 2.0, again it only matters with regards to other classes, and WE DON NOT HAVE ACCURATE DATA, all we have is a bunch of whiners emphasizing puny nerfs and blatantly ignoring the numerous huges buffs we got as the counterpart.

Quote:
c) I do not see how PT/VG "shine at decreasing enemy's mobility" unless they use a sort of hybrid build. Full dps spec are barely making an impact compared to other classes. That s a fact.
That must be your problem, you fail to understand where classes/spe can outperform others now,

you focus only on your feeling that the class is **** because it doesn't outprform others in the departments "YOU" think it should outperform others. Read, think, engineer, try, tweak , test, adapt.


ook closer and you'll see. there are plenty things PTs can do well, do that and leave the rest to other class that do the rest better, and that includes both heavy dps and healing I am affraid.

It very welll might be that Pyro spe is slightly underperforming, pay 0, respec and play diffrently, or again roll a friggin DPS, or undust that one you left when people started to notice Pyro was overperforming and you followed the Fotm.
l

Quote:
Pyro spec are fragile, much less than before, have low burst, average utility, average sustained dps: what would be the point of playing them?
details please those staements look false to me or exagerated to the point of no credibility, I think you are biased.

Quote:
AP spec are less fragile, have even less burst, slightly lower average sustained dps and higher utility thanks to reduced CD
details please those staements look false to me or exagerated to the point of no credibility, I think you are biased.

Quote:
: again what would be the point of playing one compared to another class say assassin?
Go play an assassin, stop making a fool of yourself here, and enjoy your playtime as an assassin tis the best I can hope for you.

are asssssins OP ? maybee, but in what crooked logic would that be ground for a buff to PTs, if anything this is ground for a nerf to the incriminated class/spe/spells.




Quote:
Burst, baby, burst.
Without burst any dps class in pvp just useless piece of sh*t.
WRONG,

flat dps pressure, dots, and AE damage are what put people in a situation where burst can be applied to finish them, and where the enemy's healers and tank have to guess which one of the whole half life dotted to death teammember is the one going to receive it.

burst dps in the only aprt of the iceberg noobs manage to see, but it is only one single variable into the equation.

Also on a side note to you all WZ chart centric scrubs, burst doesn't give big fat dps score at the end of the BG, if you burst well and focus well with other bursters, your score is low because people you focus die after receiving 10k damage from you, they are not healed for 70 k before falling.

Quote:
And hell, pt tanks way worse for pvp than juggs and sin tanks. No guardian leap, no stealth, few cc... lolz.
Biased statement probably , care to detail to back up your claims please ? cause I fail to see for example how stealth help in protecting others, which makes me wary concerning the credibility of the rest of your statement.

Mularky's Avatar


Mularky
05.27.2013 , 12:05 PM | #104
If you played pyro you would know how broken the spec is. It is pathetic. From your posts it does not sound like you play a vanguard or powertech. It sounds like you were making "nerf powertech" threads since launch. There is no burst in the class. Oh yeah thats right we have our little 10m tickle bomb.
<Ascendancy>

The Real Jaci

Quote: Originally Posted by warstory View Post
Listen most of the people that post on the forums are avg to good players they can nerf when they just simply get outplayed. Instead of figuring out what u did wrong they cry on the forums

Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
05.27.2013 , 12:07 PM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by Ajuntalee View Post
are asssssins OP ? maybee, but in what crooked logic would that be ground for a buff to PTs, if anything this is ground for a nerf to the incriminated class/spe/spells.
Uh, no.

Right now, the only dps subclass that can match the output of a healer is Rage/Focus. Assassin dps is also worthwhile because of their stealth and single target finishing abilities. These classes are OP relative to other dps subclasses, but they are fine relative to healers. Either those two classes AND healers need to be nerfed or the other dps classes need to be buffed (some more than others).

Ajuntalee's Avatar


Ajuntalee
05.27.2013 , 12:26 PM | #106
I main a PT, I play hybrid tank/proto or full tank most of the time.

I would probably have written nerf pyro posts before for the same reason i think you can't have the dps of a sniper and taunts in the same character it is simply too much for one character and would make mara/sniper unwanted classes in BGs, i am for diversity of classes in BGs.

Pyro spec might be broken but you are not honest when you say it is

Because there is no way in hell you know yet, there are 8 classes , 24 spe, not even counting hybrids, not even factoring itemization, and countless play style and situations, noone can know all about all already.

What i can grant you is that Pyro and proto spe damage has been toned down.

what you can't deny me is our new shield mechanic, the defense stat new mechanic, hydraulic overides for all, Kolto overload,globally bigger healing outputs, the global nerf of unmitigated damage output , the increased damage granted to tank spe and the increased tanking granted to tank spe. all of which benefit us

The rest is pure speculation, PTs are diffrent, who here can say they have no room in PvP premades, I love mine, I have fun with it, noone asked me to reroll to keep on playing in the premades.

What i can tell you, based on verifiable facts , is that 90% of players who can taunt (sins/juggs/pts underperform in Bgs regardless of spe/class, and 50% of players who can taunt have a protection score of "0" at the end of the game which mean they never ever pressed the buttons. since there is no other explanation to this but "outright plainly sucking",

then

Surely you can understand my doubts here when people state PTs are useless while I know 50% of those very persons did 0 protection in their last WZ, and failed to use their most powerfull abilities. So yes Thoses PTs are really useless, but that is nowhere the class's design that is to blame.

ceelaniri's Avatar


ceelaniri
05.27.2013 , 12:35 PM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by Ajuntalee View Post

[COLOR="orange"] look closer and you'll see. there are plenty things PTs can do well, do that and leave the rest to other class that do the rest better, and that includes both heavy dps and healing I am affraid.



details please those staements look false to me or exagerated to the point of no credibility, I think you are biased.




Now, I eagerly await your detailled answer about what Pyro and AP PT/VG are good at. I dont care about the tank spec since it is a thread about VG/PT dps. Taunts are good but assassin and juggs can do that as well so you will have to go further than that. Oh and bring numbers and details please.

Now some number for the pyro spec:

Quote:
when criting, HIB/Railshot hit for 6kish, FB/IP hit for 3kish, SS/RP hit for 4kish, SG/flechette hit for 3kish. Very similar to lvl50 pre2.0.

This isnt too dissimilar from pre 2.0 bar the fact that CGC/ Plasma cell DOT has been reduced by around 50%, TD/Assault Plastique isnt hitting for that much anymore.

In the meantime, HP have been increased, crit rating has been reduced and lots of classes can now hits for 7k+ in a regular manner.
I get these numbers with 2850 aim/ 754 dmg bonus /24.5% crit/75.6% surge/ 1882 expertise & 28-29k HP. I get high dmg number on the end chart but barely any kill. Why? because all these dmg are made mainly by weak dots from flame sweep, in short it s fluff dmg. However, playing Pyro spec before lvl55 will grant something that was always part of the pyro spec, that is: burst.

My survivability relies on:
- movement/placement (everybody can do that)
- heavy armor (provide 5% more protection than medium, doesn't protect from force/elem attacks)
- a shield that is on a 2min CD for 15 sec (reduce dmg by 25%).
- an immunity to movement impairement (not stun/mez though, 6 sec on a 30 sec CD)
- a HOT that heal me when I m under 30% HP and doesnt heal over meaning that it doesnt prevent me from being hit by execute moves from oter classes.
- arguably, a single stun and an aoe stun but they are also used for other purposes.

all that for a class that is fighting at 10m. The snare from sweltering heat is at 30% which is obviously weaker than most of the snare that melee have (50%).

Now I dont have number for AP, but they hit for less in exchange of increased survivability but since burst is king in pvp, it s a bit useless.

For further readings, go on the vanguard and powertech forums.
you have a video of the pyro dps here showcasing its lack of burst: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=642654

That written, I recommend that you stop making assumption about people, forgo bright colours in your post and have more respect for your fellow players especially when you dont know what you are talking about.
Masamoto Pentesilhea

Mularky's Avatar


Mularky
05.27.2013 , 01:00 PM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by Ajuntalee View Post
I main a PT, I play hybrid tank/proto or full tank most of the time.

I would probably have written nerf pyro posts before for the same reason i think you can't have the dps of a sniper and taunts in the same character it is simply too much for one character and would make mara/sniper unwanted classes in BGs, i am for diversity of classes in BGs.

Pyro spec might be broken but you are not honest when you say it is

Because there is no way in hell you know yet, there are 8 classes , 24 spe, not even counting hybrids, not even factoring itemization, and countless play style and situations, noone can know all about all already.

What i can grant you is that Pyro and proto spe damage has been toned down.

what you can't deny me is our new shield mechanic, the defense stat new mechanic, hydraulic overides for all, Kolto overload,globally bigger healing outputs, the global nerf of unmitigated damage output , the increased damage granted to tank spe and the increased tanking granted to tank spe. all of which benefit us

The rest is pure speculation, PTs are diffrent, who here can say they have no room in PvP premades, I love mine, I have fun with it, noone asked me to reroll to keep on playing in the premades.

What i can tell you, based on verifiable facts , is that 90% of players who can taunt (sins/juggs/pts underperform in Bgs regardless of spe/class, and 50% of players who can taunt have a protection score of "0" at the end of the game which mean they never ever pressed the buttons. since there is no other explanation to this but "outright plainly sucking",

then

Surely you can understand my doubts here when people state PTs are useless while I know 50% of those very persons did 0 protection in their last WZ, and failed to use their most powerfull abilities. So yes Thoses PTs are really useless, but that is nowhere the class's design that is to blame.
Okay fair enough, I just did not see how pyro was overpowered pre 2.0. The Squishiest class that I can think of. It relied on one thing burst. That was pyros defensive cool down was their burst. Sure right now we can pull good numbers in PVP. We cant kill anything. Unlike a mara, sniper or jugg or in some cases a sorc. Don't even get me started with PVE. Operatives just laugh at us as we chase them around with our weak*** dot. Try and burst down a good healer. No healer should ever stalmate a dps.
<Ascendancy>

The Real Jaci

Quote: Originally Posted by warstory View Post
Listen most of the people that post on the forums are avg to good players they can nerf when they just simply get outplayed. Instead of figuring out what u did wrong they cry on the forums

Brunner_Venda's Avatar


Brunner_Venda
05.27.2013 , 01:32 PM | #109
Fix the pyro powertech defensive CD's and we're good. Seriously.

Our rails hit as hard as your average SMASH, but we have nowhere near the kind of survivability sents have.

Mularky's Avatar


Mularky
05.27.2013 , 02:33 PM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by Brunner_Venda View Post
Fix the pyro powertech defensive CD's and we're good. Seriously.

Our rails hit as hard as your average SMASH, but we have nowhere near the kind of survivability sents have.
Average rail shot is about 6k the average smash is about 8.5k.
<Ascendancy>

The Real Jaci

Quote: Originally Posted by warstory View Post
Listen most of the people that post on the forums are avg to good players they can nerf when they just simply get outplayed. Instead of figuring out what u did wrong they cry on the forums