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Same gender romance discussion

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender romance discussion
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SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
04.27.2013 , 02:29 PM | #1161
Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
I don't see what's so stupid about an elected head of state having a very traditional title associated with their position.

Oh, you were talking to SK. Is that some George Lucas weird, pseudo-religious EU thing?
Less religion, and just saying Anakin didn't have a father, but just a mother who concieved him by the force.

I thought the Amidala being an elected queen had more to do with her age at election (13 or 15), than the title, but I could have misread that.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
04.27.2013 , 02:35 PM | #1162
Quote: Originally Posted by nateslice View Post
Yeah, sorry about not adding that quote to my comment before you could respond.

I think Lucas was overreaching in an attempt to show us that Anakin was supposed to be the equivalent of Jesus but then went bad. So, yeah, some pseudo-religious thing.
Well, he's not involved in things anymore, so hopefully the Star Wars Universe will start making sense within itself again. It's the thing about fiction - we expect there to be a certain set of rules that the fictional universe adheres to and which are constants, but we also expect that anything that is human, or is representative of humans, act in a recognisably human manner. And then add to that, that this is a game, which is even further removed from the basis of either aforementioned things (e.g. a Sith Pureblood should have a greater start in life and be given more respect and more "stuff" than a force sensitive human or alien) because of a basis of fun and detachment from reality.

I guess you could call it doublethink, if you really wanted, but I think it's more the conscious decision of recognising the elements required to maintain the story and basis for the Universe in question and then having to find what can be altered to allow for an enjoyable gameplay experience.

I'm reminded of someone's rant posted to the EscherGirls tumblr recently, in which the woman said she did not like reading fictional women's struggles against sexism and misogyny in escapist fiction, because she has to deal with that everyday. Escapist fiction should be escapist for everyone - if that means suspending the percentages of reality so that LGB players can have a game where they don't have to be reminded every other step that they are a marginalised group, then I don't see a problem with that.

nateslice's Avatar


nateslice
04.27.2013 , 06:02 PM | #1163
Would you be okay with making straight people feel marginalized here? Because that's exactly what would happen if the game were perceived as "too gay".

Think about the uproar that occurred when Makeb was dubbed "the gay planet".

Now, imagine one class ended up having more same-sex flirt options than opposite-sex ones. Do you really think that class wouldn't come to be known as "the gay class"? Many straight people would begin to feel uncomfortable playing that class. We'd lose a lot of tanks and/or healers as a result.

Take it a step further. Imagine every class had more same-sex flirts than opposite-sex ones. Do you think "the gay MMO" would pull in as many players as TOR does now? I don't. I think we'd lose, oh, probably at least half of the game's population.

Now, you can say, "Good, we're better off without all those poopy homophobes, anyway," but are you prepared to make that decision on BioWare's behalf? Would you cut your own income in half on that principle?

Keep in mind, too, that those quitters wouldn't necessarily be homophobes. Some would just be concerned that people might think they're something they aren't. Some would just feel uncomfortable doing something that feels gay to them, while having absolutely nothing against gay people themselves. Some would object to the feeling that there's a political agenda being shoved down their throats (which ties in with your point about that woman who doesn't want to read feminist novels, Tatile). Some would simply see their guilds' numbers plummeting, and decide they don't have much reason to keep logging in.

If each of those groups is a mere 10% of the game's population, that's 40% gone right there, not even counting the actual homophobes.
Star Wars goodness from Richard Cheese:
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QwibQwib's Avatar


QwibQwib
04.27.2013 , 06:38 PM | #1164
Quote: Originally Posted by nateslice View Post
Would you be okay with making straight people feel marginalized here? Because that's exactly what would happen if the game were perceived as "too gay".

Think about the uproar that occurred when Makeb was dubbed "the gay planet".

Now, imagine one class ended up having more same-sex flirt options than opposite-sex ones. Do you really think that class wouldn't come to be known as "the gay class"? Many straight people would begin to feel uncomfortable playing that class. We'd lose a lot of tanks and/or healers as a result.

Take it a step further. Imagine every class had more same-sex flirts than opposite-sex ones. Do you think "the gay MMO" would pull in as many players as TOR does now? I don't. I think we'd lose, oh, probably at least half of the game's population.

Now, you can say, "Good, we're better off without all those poopy homophobes, anyway," but are you prepared to make that decision on BioWare's behalf? Would you cut your own income in half on that principle?

Keep in mind, too, that those quitters wouldn't necessarily be homophobes. Some would just be concerned that people might think they're something they aren't. Some would just feel uncomfortable doing something that feels gay to them, while having absolutely nothing against gay people themselves. Some would object to the feeling that there's a political agenda being shoved down their throats (which ties in with your point about that woman who doesn't want to read feminist novels, Tatile). Some would simply see their guilds' numbers plummeting, and decide they don't have much reason to keep logging in.

If each of those groups is a mere 10% of the game's population, that's 40% gone right there, not even counting the actual homophobes.
1) No one's arguing for more SGR than OGR.
2) That would never happen.
3) . . . like, ever.
"Amor omnibus idem" - "Love is the same for all"

JediMB's Avatar


JediMB
04.27.2013 , 06:57 PM | #1165
Quote: Originally Posted by nateslice View Post
Now, imagine one class ended up having more same-sex flirt options than opposite-sex ones. Do you really think that class wouldn't come to be known as "the gay class"? Many straight people would begin to feel uncomfortable playing that class. We'd lose a lot of tanks and/or healers as a result.

Take it a step further. Imagine every class had more same-sex flirts than opposite-sex ones. Do you think "the gay MMO" would pull in as many players as TOR does now? I don't. I think we'd lose, oh, probably at least half of the game's population.
Your hypothetical situations are ludicrous, because there's no chance in Jotunheim that same-sex flirt options spread between all eight classes, which already have opposite-sex flirts and romances, could lead to one being referred to as "the gay class" even if the balance for it somehow tipped in favor of the same-sex ones.

Same situation for the game itself. Not to mention that The Secret World has had same-sex romantic/sexual interactions since it was released, and no one has made a fuss about that.

And I suspect you're projecting. And that you have no idea just how uninvolved a majority of the players are with the larger community.

Quote: Originally Posted by nateslice View Post
Keep in mind, too, that those quitters wouldn't necessarily be homophobes. Some would just be concerned that people might think they're something they aren't. Some would just feel uncomfortable doing something that feels gay to them, while having absolutely nothing against gay people themselves. Some would object to the feeling that there's a political agenda being shoved down their throats (which ties in with your point about that woman who doesn't want to read feminist novels, Tatile). Some would simply see their guilds' numbers plummeting, and decide they don't have much reason to keep logging in.
That's funny, because having an irrational fear of being thought of as homosexual sounds a lot like homophobia to me. Not outright gay-hate, but still homophobia. And the people who complain about "political agendas" in social justice situations are, quite frankly, enormous idiots and/or bigots trying to mask their bigotry with a flimsy excuse.

I've had plenty of people on the Internet thinking I'm a woman, and I don't correct them. I'm pretty sure my brother-in-law thinks I'm gay, and I'm completely fine with that too.

I'd damn well rather have a fair game that makes a few 'phobes insecure about their sexualities than an unfair breeding ground for heterosexism.
The Morrowbringer Legacy The Red Eclipse (PvE) [EU]
Deep into that darkness peering, you reach out your hand and grasp what you are searching for.
Now ring the bells that sweep away the darkness; the bells that beckon tomorrow's dawn.

stormdrakelord's Avatar


stormdrakelord
04.27.2013 , 06:57 PM | #1166
Let's be honest, since the majority of Players are young, straight white males, I doubt we will see an equal amount of SGRs, even on the girl/girl side.
Han Solo: Great, kid. Don't get cocky.

JediMB's Avatar


JediMB
04.27.2013 , 07:10 PM | #1167
Quote: Originally Posted by stormdrakelord View Post
Let's be honest, since the majority of Players are young, straight white males, I doubt we will see an equal amount of SGRs, even on the girl/girl side.
No, if we're going to be honest, the reason we'll never see an equal amount of SGRs is because BioWare Austin dropped the ball during pre-release development. EA now wants to see maximized profits with minimized development costs, and our only real chance of seeing an equal playing field is if the old lv.1-50 content is retooled.

Retooling old content and min-maxing costs-to-profits are two things that don't seem particularly compatible.
The Morrowbringer Legacy The Red Eclipse (PvE) [EU]
Deep into that darkness peering, you reach out your hand and grasp what you are searching for.
Now ring the bells that sweep away the darkness; the bells that beckon tomorrow's dawn.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
04.27.2013 , 08:26 PM | #1168
Quote: Originally Posted by QwibQwib View Post
1) No one's arguing for more SGR than OGR.
2) That would never happen.
3) . . . like, ever.
Always wonder why people take a hypothetical and say "That would never happen."

It's a hypothetical. Hypothetically it could go either way. And that answer doesn't answer the question, which is a pretty straight foward, yes or no question.

Of course, I don't see BW actually doing that hypothetical. What I do see them doing is making herosexual companions to sell on the cartel market!
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

nateslice's Avatar


nateslice
04.27.2013 , 08:54 PM | #1169
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMB View Post
Your hypothetical situations are ludicrous, because there's no chance in Jotunheim that same-sex flirt options spread between all eight classes, which already have opposite-sex flirts and romances, could lead to one being referred to as "the gay class" even if the balance for it somehow tipped in favor of the same-sex ones.
If class stories are indeed being dropped, and there's going to be more of an effort to make things "balance out" in the future, then some classes may very well end up having more same-sex flirt options than opposite-sex ones. Those will be the "gay classes".

Quote: Originally Posted by JediMB View Post
Same situation for the game itself. Not to mention that The Secret World has had same-sex romantic/sexual interactions since it was released, and no one has made a fuss about that.
Is there romance in The Secret World? I remember that Dragon players, regardless of gender, have sex with a female prostitute in their prologue. That's the closest thing I know of to romance. If that's the only sexual encounter in the entire game (and I think it is), then big whoop. That's not a relevant example, and it does nothing for your argument.


Quote: Originally Posted by JediMB View Post
And I suspect you're projecting. And that you have no idea just how uninvolved a majority of the players are with the larger community.
What am I projecting, exactly? By all means, please, analyze me, Dr. Freud. But keep in mind that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. By the way, I'm pretty sure "a majority of players" is "the larger community". Or do words not mean the same to you as they do to me?

Quote: Originally Posted by JediMB View Post
That's funny, because having an irrational fear of being thought of as homosexual sounds a lot like homophobia to me. Not outright gay-hate, but still homophobia. And the people who complain about "political agendas" in social justice situations are, quite frankly, enormous idiots and/or bigots trying to mask their bigotry with a flimsy excuse.
A lot of women won't date a man if they think he might be gay. Does not wanting every one of those women to reject you out of hand make you a homophobe? Does it somehow make those women horrible? Why? Because they don't want to date a dude who might leave them for another dude? And what "social justice situations" are you talking about? This is a game. Escapist entertainment. A lot of people don't want politics in their escapist entertainment, as Tatile has already pointed out (while arguing against me, might I add).

Quote: Originally Posted by JediMB View Post
I've had plenty of people on the Internet thinking I'm a woman, and I don't correct them. I'm pretty sure my brother-in-law thinks I'm gay, and I'm completely fine with that too.
Do you really want to go there? Brother-in-law. Really? That seems like a big deal to you? I'll bet he doesn't even hate you. I'll tell you what... just drop the pretense that this gives you any sort of moral authority over me. Or else... I'll have to tell you why it doesn't. And you wouldn't want that. Oh, and by the way, I play mostly female characters in these games, so you being mistaken for a girl online also means nothing to me.

Quote: Originally Posted by JediMB View Post
I'd damn well rather have a fair game that makes a few 'phobes insecure about their sexualities than an unfair breeding ground for heterosexism.
Oh, yeah, go ahead and drive off all the people you disagree with on anything, and watch this game quickly become unprofitable and get shut down. After all, you're not the one who'd lose money over it.
Star Wars goodness from Richard Cheese:
Star Wars Cantina
The Imperial March

WeirdnGilly's Avatar


WeirdnGilly
04.27.2013 , 09:32 PM | #1170
Quote: Originally Posted by nateslice View Post
Would you be okay with making straight people feel marginalized here? Because that's exactly what would happen if the game were perceived as "too gay".

Think about the uproar that occurred when Makeb was dubbed "the gay planet".

Now, imagine one class ended up having more same-sex flirt options than opposite-sex ones. Do you really think that class wouldn't come to be known as "the gay class"? Many straight people would begin to feel uncomfortable playing that class. We'd lose a lot of tanks and/or healers as a result.
kinda like how mass effect and dragon age are "the gay rpgs" that totally flopped, right? oh wait.

or maybe it's like when 'the L word', 'noah's ark', 'queer as folk', and 'will & grace' were on TV and all the straight viewers felt marginalized and didn't watch.... oh wait.

or when brokeback mtn or a single man were "those gay movies" that no one saw...

oh wait.

relax. pretty sure no one cares or even thinks about whether you're gay or not.