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Why the post-ROTJ era sucks!


Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
04.20.2013 , 10:45 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by TalonVII View Post
I don't think that Star Wars focuses mainly on Good vs Evil but the whole rainbow between good and evil.
This I would agree with, but I feel the post-ROTJ era has neglected many aspects of the spectrum.

Seireeni's Avatar


Seireeni
04.20.2013 , 10:53 AM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Concerning with the Imperial Remnant. I am inclined to agree with you. However my biggest gripe if that when it becomes a battle between the Republic and Remnant, their is no good or evil. The writer can make you more sympathetic towards one cause but ultimately its just a battle over political beliefs, nothing mythical. I would reintroduce the Sith, however not as before. Instead have these new Sith attempt to claim leadership over the Empire, their Sith, they likely believe it is their right. However the Imperials are tired of their dark side overlords who seem to cause nothing but trouble, so the Sith are overthrown and the Imperials turn on them. Meanwhile the Republic is battling both factions.

I believe that would make for a more interesting story that better suits the universe.

As for the Vong, this is a suggestion for if we could start the EU again. I very much feel the Vong have been shoe horned into everything. For example apparently the Empire was building all those massive fleets because of the threat of the Vong, be we know that's never what Lucas intended. The Vong seem to just be a fear factor on the edge of the galaxy, and excuse for the actions of various characters and factions.
Now, with the Empire, I don't think you should concern sith with them anymore. Not all all. However, I do have to agree that it's nice to see a sith or other dark side user here and there, but Empire has suffered enough from those. I like that one with no clear evil and good. Tbh is there was a sith in the area of New Republic vs. Imperial Remnants, the only place I could deal with it would be either a. nothing to do either side or b. New Republic's problem. But better this way. It wouldn't feel natural to force another sith to run around the Empire. Let there be war between these two and eventually, peace - because now, without the sith, there's the possibility of peace. It feels like a natural progression to how things should go. Forcing a sith in because of "well, it's star wars, there has to be a sith somewhere!" wouldn't feel anything but maybe a little...childish to me.

Now, case Vong. I actually like the idea that there's something scary in the edge of the galaxy and the species (i.e. chiss) that live near the edge, are scared of it and maybe have fought it. And that is might attack the galaxy some day. However, there are a few problems with the Vong. As you said, it's an overused excuse. I actually do like the idea that Thrawn is worried about the Vong, his people live near the edge of the galaxy. It's like living next door to a serial killer when there's no police to call. But I don't think Vong should be used as an excuse to everything that happens. "Well, the Vong are coming" can be used as an excuse in your own mind when creating a huge fleet of battleships when you don't want to admit that you just want to have overpowered military.

But I don't think that's some one and only reason why Sidious would build a big fleet, and tbh, I don't think that's the only reason Thrawn attacked the New Republic. It might have been one of the reasons, but probably (Especially in the case of Sidious) it wasn't even the biggest reason. Not to mention that even though some of the things Lucas did have had to be given excuses (like that fail with parsecs, Kevin J. Anderson did a nice safe there I believe, or at least that's when I first heard about the thing that Han would have actually went through the Kessel route so close to a black hole that it should have been impossible.) BUT, I don't think people should start saying "Oh, Sidious was actually a nice guy after all!". He wasn't that nice in the movies. Instead of trying to change his personality to a protector of the galaxy, authors should focus on making his character work i.e. telling why he has the personality he has.

Also, tbh I don't like the fact that Vong come from another galaxy. Something in it just rubs me wrong. Some alien warlord like Nuso Esva would have been much more interesting.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
04.20.2013 , 11:03 AM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Seireeni View Post
Now, with the Empire, I don't think you should concern sith with them anymore. Not all all. However, I do have to agree that it's nice to see a sith or other dark side user here and there, but Empire has suffered enough from those. I like that one with no clear evil and good. Tbh is there was a sith in the area of New Republic vs. Imperial Remnants, the only place I could deal with it would be either a. nothing to do either side or b. New Republic's problem. But better this way. It wouldn't feel natural to force another sith to run around the Empire. Let there be war between these two and eventually, peace - because now, without the sith, there's the possibility of peace. It feels like a natural progression to how things should go. Forcing a sith in because of "well, it's star wars, there has to be a sith somewhere!" wouldn't feel anything but maybe a little...childish to me.
Perhaps not Sith, but dark siders. After all there are many sith adepts and acoytles left over from the old Empire, it would have been interesting to see a conflict in leadership between them and the Empire. And perhaps eventually becoming a threat to both the Republic and the Empire who band together to destroy them. In that context I feel the 'Empire turned good' would be much more effective, and it would also demand a reconciliation of differences between Empire and Republic to fight a common threat.
Quote:
Now, case Vong. I actually like the idea that there's something scary in the edge of the galaxy and the species (i.e. chiss) that live near the edge, are scared of it and maybe have fought it. And that is might attack the galaxy some day. However, there are a few problems with the Vong. As you said, it's an overused excuse. I actually do like the idea that Thrawn is worried about the Vong, his people live near the edge of the galaxy. It's like living next door to a serial killer when there's no police to call. But I don't think Vong should be used as an excuse to everything that happens. "Well, the Vong are coming" can be used as an excuse in your own mind when creating a huge fleet of battleships when you don't want to admit that you just want to have overpowered military.

But I don't think that's some one and only reason why Sidious would build a big fleet, and tbh, I don't think that's the only reason Thrawn attacked the New Republic. It might have been one of the reasons, but probably (Especially in the case of Sidious) it wasn't even the biggest reason. Not to mention that even though some of the things Lucas did have had to be given excuses (like that fail with parsecs, Kevin J. Anderson did a nice safe there I believe, or at least that's when I first heard about the thing that Han would have actually went through the Kessel route so close to a black hole that it should have been impossible.) BUT, I don't think people should start saying "Oh, Sidious was actually a nice guy after all!". He wasn't that nice in the movies. Instead of trying to change his personality to a protector of the galaxy, authors should focus on making his character work i.e. telling why he has the personality he has.

Also, tbh I don't like the fact that Vong come from another galaxy. Something in it just rubs me wrong. Some alien warlord like Nuso Esva would have been much more interesting.
I like the idea. I think its more the zergish nature of the Vong that puts me off, they just seem to swarm the galaxy like a plague wrecking everything. Like a metaphorical trashing of the Star Wars universe. And yeah, I also dislike them coming from another galaxy. I think the reason is because Star Wars is very much centered around a single galaxy (a long time ago in a galaxy far far away) and to expand that to other galaxies just seems wrong. I think the concept of the Chiss on the other hand is a great idea, and something along those sort of lines may have worked better.

Seireeni's Avatar


Seireeni
04.20.2013 , 11:28 AM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Perhaps not Sith, but dark siders. After all there are many sith adepts and acoytles left over from the old Empire, it would have been interesting to see a conflict in leadership between them and the Empire. And perhaps eventually becoming a threat to both the Republic and the Empire who band together to destroy them. In that context I feel the 'Empire turned good' would be much more effective, and it would also demand a reconciliation of differences between Empire and Republic to fight a common threat.
Nah. "Common threat" is a pretty overused cliche. Also, I don't like the idea that "Empire turned good". Empire didn't turn into anything, the leaders just changed. People like Pellaeon have been in their ranks all the time. Maybe a dark side user wouldn't have harmed to story too much, but tbh, what I have read, I have liked. And it would just...make things too easy. I really liked how Pellaeon finally swallowed his pride and decided that it's Empire's time surrender to the Republic. Just like "there's a sith in there, wanna stop this war and start a war against that?" would just make it too easy for everyone. It was a great moment when Pellaeon decided that it's time to give up. Some common enemy would have taken something away from that moment.
And hey, there was always Joruus C'baoth! Hilarious little guy, wasn't he?


Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I like the idea. I think its more the zergish nature of the Vong that puts me off, they just seem to swarm the galaxy like a plague wrecking everything. Like a metaphorical trashing of the Star Wars universe. And yeah, I also dislike them coming from another galaxy. I think the reason is because Star Wars is very much centered around a single galaxy (a long time ago in a galaxy far far away) and to expand that to other galaxies just seems wrong. I think the concept of the Chiss on the other hand is a great idea, and something along those sort of lines may have worked better.
I'm a big fan of the chiss and Thrawn in particular, as you probably have already noticed. ^^ But anyway, the Vong had a lot of potential, but it wasn't imo done as greatly as it could have been done. People destroying everything for the sake of destroying isn't any more better than evil for the sake of evil, and it should be left to bad horror movies. Also, it would have been nice that the Vong would have been some alien race that was living in the edge of the galaxy, with some actual purpose to try to conquer the galaxy. I haven't heard that there would be anything else than the Vong that would have came from another galaxy, and I don't like that Vong came from there. Just a little too big of a exception.

CassusVerda's Avatar


CassusVerda
04.25.2013 , 05:47 PM | #35
To be honest with you if I could save just a few things from the POST ROTJ EU it would be the Following
  • Boba Fett surviving the Sarlacc and Escaping
  • Kyle "Mother Forcing" Katarn
  • Admiral Thrawn
  • .......I guess that's it really.

If Disney were abort the rest of the EU and I was able to save these three from the purge. I'd be one happy Fan. To be honest with you I favor the The Clone Wars Era EU over the ROTJ EU, which would explain why I detest when The Clone Wars series used to copy and paste it's version of what happened over something I considered to be superior. Something serious is over written by something a bit more softer because the show is sometimes marketed towards a younger audience just because the show is higher on the canon scale then Dark Horse's Republic: Clone Wars. Oh dear there I go ranting again. Excuse me while i go mourn my Non Canon ARC Trooper Alpha.
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Murasakikitsune's Avatar


Murasakikitsune
04.26.2013 , 07:27 AM | #36
Personally I thought it sucked because it was full of ridiculous power-creep. Infinitely reborn emperor, force-using droids, anything about the Yuuzhan Vong. Everything in the galaxy turns to crap, as if galactic assault automatically translates to interesting drama.

The whole thing reminds me of when I would play with Star Wars toys as a child, and couldn't come up with anything interesting to keep the story going.

Dmyankee's Avatar


Dmyankee
04.26.2013 , 09:57 AM | #37
I can agree some of the story lines are flawed and the focus on the jedi order is a bit much. I think the X-wing novels showed evil in humanity not just evil due to power.

Thrawn was not bad, but bad ***** I thoroughly enjoyed those novels 20 years ago, and re read them last year. I think that the old republic sagas and story lines take place 3000 years in the past so the stories are very open.

With the end of Fate of the Jedi it is time to transition to new characters and now we have the jedi order protecting Han and Leia's grand kid, the future has an upside for novels.

It will be interesting how the JJ abrams and the writers go with episode 7, since they are not doing the Thrawn story line. If they bring in the original characters it would make sense they move to the next level of leadership and the Sith vs Jedi will resume with an even greater fervor.

AlexDougherty's Avatar


AlexDougherty
04.26.2013 , 10:03 AM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Dmyankee View Post
Thrawn was not bad, but bad ***** I thoroughly enjoyed those novels 20 years ago, and re read them last year. I think that the old republic sagas and story lines take place 3000 years in the past so the stories are very open.
Thrawn was bad, he committed Mass Genocide multiple times, that's evil. He kill several species, mostly because he could not defeat them at that time, or because they had little to offer the empire. I know it's a current trend to say has wasn't evil but pragmatic, but when you look at what he did it's evil, he could justify it to himself, and he believed in his cause, but that doesn't make it any less evil.
Peace can be found, above all passions. Through passion, I may gain strength.
Through strength, I may gain power. Through power, I may gain victory.
But for every enemy fallen, a new foe rises.
For every chain broken, new chains bind me. Only the Force can set me free.

Dmyankee's Avatar


Dmyankee
04.26.2013 , 10:16 AM | #39
Thrawn believed in restoration of the empire and order.

As a character his view points he was not evil only was doing what he thought was right.

If you condemn Thrawn you have to condemn pellion as well.

Seireeni's Avatar


Seireeni
04.26.2013 , 03:16 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by AlexDougherty View Post
Thrawn was bad, he committed Mass Genocide multiple times, that's evil. He kill several species, mostly because he could not defeat them at that time, or because they had little to offer the empire. I know it's a current trend to say has wasn't evil but pragmatic, but when you look at what he did it's evil, he could justify it to himself, and he believed in his cause, but that doesn't make it any less evil.
Actually, when asked on his facebook page, Timothy Zahn decided to follow this "trend" and said that he didn't think Thrawn was evil. As he is the creator of Thrawn's character, and the deeds Thrawn seems to be doing in his books don't seem horribly evil to me, it's completely justified to say that Thrawn wasn't all that evil.