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Kitru's New Class Idea

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Kitru's New Class Idea

GeckoOBac's Avatar


GeckoOBac
03.30.2013 , 03:39 AM | #61
[QUOTE=Kitru;6074336]The reason you perceive the background as inadequate is because you're applying a double standard.[Quote]
Not exactly. I actually run by the opposite idea: that when I'm in group content the jedi are quite run of the mill ones and the smugglers and troopers are quite good at what they do, without necessarily being the best. Since you don't really face jedi directly, the relative power levels are not as important.

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Keep in mind, this time frame is actually the time when it's *most* likely that a powerful Force Adept would make it in the galaxy
And that is likely true, but it's hard to believe that there'd be a bunch of REPUBLIC AFFILIATED force adepts just running around. I can definitely see space for a small faction, but it would be quite limited in numbers, kinda like the Voss.

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You're also acting as if the players are actually intended to be even a significant *minority* of the total population we're supposed to have seen. [...] The Force Adept concept would be just as rare as anything else.
The first sentence is certainly true, the second, not so much. While the small numbers of players compared to the general scale of the war are very small, even if you consider them by the meter of pretty "average" jedi and very good troopers smugglers, the sheer scale of the conflict means there will still be lots of them and, given the nature of the stuff they face, they're quire likely to work with each other, more than with more "normal" npcs.
Force Adepts then are a different thing, as they would be in even smaller numbers, especially if you consider the fact that lacking an organised structure, it would be hard to explain why different Adepts have so many similar (and peculiar, we're not talking about the usual force stuff here) abilities. Either this or you'd be forced to have them all be part of a specific race/culture, like the Voss, which would make them somewhat unsuitable for player classes.

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In short, you're unconsciously suspending disbelief concerning the existing classes because you're already exposed to them but you won't to other classes because you don't realize that you're *already* suspending disbelief concerning the choices the devs have already made to make said play enjoyable.
I certainly am suspending disbelief about the classes as they are, but not so much as you seem to think, as I've explained above. I am indeed critical of some of the storytelling choices so I have to find a viable explanation, which I've explained above. I merely think that Force Adepts would strain even this explanation too much.
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haksilence's Avatar


haksilence
03.30.2013 , 07:42 AM | #62
Love the idea and the amount of detail, I didn't read to much into the story I paid more attention the mechanical aspects and I feel that your onto something good here. I only stipulation is the double bladed vibroblade, to me it sounds too similar to a shadow, might I suggest vibroknives, since they are already in the game anyway and they are underutilized ATM in game, perhaps dual wielded and backhanded? I think it would be nice playing a super mobile class with one or two backhanded viboknives.
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SuperGrunt's Avatar


SuperGrunt
03.30.2013 , 08:00 AM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Echani Fighter / Thyrsian Aspirant (Base Class)
Weapons: Fist Weapon
Armor: Medium
Primary Attribute: Strength
Class Buff: 5% surge rating
Power Source: Tech
I like the idea of a new class, and this one is pretty well thought out. My only real problem is that you seem to be trying to hard to use assets already in the game. I think that a new class deserves to have it's own main stat, and also we should get a Light Armor Tech class. They get their own weapon type, why not this as well. Maybe Perception? Also maybe the Reps could get Echani, and the Imps could get Teras Kasi Master. It would then be possible to use some more established lore into the game. Teras Kasi was an unarmed combat martial art in the Star Wars Expanded universe, (I believe) first introduced in the PS1 game Star Wars Teras Kasi Masters. In SWG they used Unarmed/Fist Weapons, and where able to compete with the Alpha class Jedi (pre-NGE of course).
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
03.30.2013 , 12:55 PM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by haksilence View Post
I only stipulation is the double bladed vibroblade
I originally considered using Vibroknives as a weapon but decided it didn't really fit within the culture itself (as an offhand *and* as a mainhand; I had to drop the offhand idea because that didn't work for the Infighter since they needed to be able to use Shields). Keep in mind, the Double Bladed Vibroblade has context as a weapon for the Echani to consider important even within the confines of Bioware's own development: the Echani Ritual Brand. Essentially, you're either an Echani that focuses on unarmed Echani combat (which is actually combat armed with Fist Weapons) or you're an Echani that focuses on using the ritual brand and its variants. Vibroknives don't fill that same niche within the existing lore.

Plus, the Vibroknife combat combined with personal shields and predicting the future reminded me a bit too much of Dune.
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
03.30.2013 , 01:06 PM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by SuperGrunt View Post
Imps could get Teras Kasi Master.
The problem with Teras Kasi is the timeline (yes, I've seen a *lot* of people recommend this in other additional class ideas). Teras Kasi had only recently been developed (if you actually go by the lore in game, the organization that actually *developed* Teras Kasi, the Followers of Palawa, actually exists in game on Tatooine and is both in conflict with the Empire *and* prefers to use guns and melee weapons rather than unarmed combat; which suggests that the unarmed combat discipline they're famous for hasn't even been developed yet), and the reasons it was developed (i.e. to beat the crap out of overreaching Jedi) mean that they're not likely to be all that friendly with the Republic *or* the Empire (Teras Kasi is an anti-Force fighting style which means they'd likely be just as suspicious of the Empire as of the Republic since the Empire is explicitly *run* by Force users bossing other people around by using their Force powers).

Timeline is something that a lot of people miss when they're coming up with class concepts, especially when they're basing them off of concepts that come out of organizations derived from the EU. Teras Kasi, Witches of Dathomir, and all manner of others either don't exist during the Old Republic timeline (like the Witches, who were founded in ~600 BBY) or the organization itself has yet to evolve to be appropriate for the game construct (like the Teras Kasi, who, with some finagling, *could* exist, but wouldn't side with either existing faction due to fundamental differences).
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XORDYH's Avatar


XORDYH
03.31.2013 , 04:24 AM | #66
The SW:TOR Blood of the Empire webcomic series contained a character that mentioned being trained in Teras Kasi, so as far as Bioware is concerned the discipline exists in some form at this time, though it's probably not in widespread use. In fact, since the webcomic series chronicles Teneb Kel's path to becoming Darth Thanaton, Teras Kasi would have had to have existed for at least a four decades by the time the game occurs.

Canino's Avatar


Canino
04.01.2013 , 07:02 PM | #67
Alright, I've read the first chapter of the Echani story and overall I like it. I'll break it down planet by planet.

Coruscant
  • I think the Senator should be corrupt, and the "Senatorial Aid" may be vying for his/her position. They help you once you expose the senator.

Taris
  • I really love Taris. At the same time, it was a tad confusing, but with dialogue that confusion would be removed.

Nar Shaddaa
  • I like it, just make sure it doesn't get too repetitive. Perhaps at the second arena, add something instead of just a conversation. Perhaps you are intercepted by a gang or so, just to add to the suspense of who Zindane is. Maybe he escapes during the fight, or hired the gang to test you. Either way, adding another battle or moment of suspense would benefit the story.
Tatooine
  • I LOVE Tatooine, but it was confusing at first. Again dialogue will alleviate this.

Alderaan
Alright. I have a bone to pick with Alderaan. It seems as though the entire planet is basically saying, I lost it, go to [INSERT TOWN/CITY HERE] to get it rinse and repeat. It needs some spice. I understand that you end up fighting all the houses, but maybe have he/she get the sword and then have it be stolen by house Ulgo? This would create an emotional response to the player, which may make them want revenge, hence the attack on Ulgo. Now, sure, the scion that is captured works. But I feel as though the assassin should be house Ulgo, and you steal the sword and have him steal it back. Then have the scion be kidnapped and carry on.

I dont know if that makes since, but if it does, I would like your opinion on it. And the last part is great. I love how it ends.
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Sprgmr's Avatar


Sprgmr
04.01.2013 , 07:50 PM | #68
Would it work to make it a dual weapon type combat? Such as Fist/Knife or Fist/Sword or Sword/Knife? VIsually, that could make a very distinct look, while keeping with the feel of the class.

Additionally, maybe the shield using AC could use the shield aggressively? Somewhere between how a shield is used aggressively in WoW and how Wonder Woman uses her bracers? I use her because the Echani shields (and shields in general) in KoToR always had graphics that made me believe they were placed on the forearm/wrist.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
I originally considered using Vibroknives as a weapon but decided it didn't really fit within the culture itself (as an offhand *and* as a mainhand; I had to drop the offhand idea because that didn't work for the Infighter since they needed to be able to use Shields). Keep in mind, the Double Bladed Vibroblade has context as a weapon for the Echani to consider important even within the confines of Bioware's own development: the Echani Ritual Brand. Essentially, you're either an Echani that focuses on unarmed Echani combat (which is actually combat armed with Fist Weapons) or you're an Echani that focuses on using the ritual brand and its variants. Vibroknives don't fill that same niche within the existing lore.

Plus, the Vibroknife combat combined with personal shields and predicting the future reminded me a bit too much of Dune.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
04.01.2013 , 09:00 PM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by Sprgmr View Post
Would it work to make it a dual weapon type combat? Such as Fist/Knife or Fist/Sword or Sword/Knife? VIsually, that could make a very distinct look, while keeping with the feel of the class.
The dual weapon implementation is one that could've been done for the Fencer (though, as stated before, it wouldn't really work since it would mean *not* using a DBVS like the Echani Ritual Brand) but would be *really* weird with the Infighter, since tank specs are, pretty much by definition, supposed to have shields equipped. Unless it's a functionally required "option" for the DPS specs (which would be *really* strange since you couldn't make any of the Infighter unique attacks "2 weapons required" because they're used by the tank spec as well

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Additionally, maybe the shield using AC could use the shield aggressively?
That's more of an animation issue, though, keep in mind that the effects of stuff like Warcry, Avalanche Strike, Vortex Spin, etc. (i.e. those abilities that act outside of actual melee range) aren't intended to actually be caused by pure natural Echani awesomeness (since you don't have to Force to do make your Scream cause damage to your foes and robots wouldn't be affected by "psychic" damage if it were fear based); in my mind's eye, I was seeing them as being caused by the Echani doing weird things to their shield/generator to modify the effects of it for a short while in conjunction with the motions of combat (i.e. the thing was programmed such that, when you do *this* punch and *this* kick together, it activates *this* weird function).

For example, the massive shockwave caused by Avalanche Strike is actually caused by a build up of kinetic energy that your generator builds up around you and is released at the end of the leap, Vortex spin involves your generator creating some weird convergent gravity waves or something similar, and Warcry is more like a sound activated destructive pulse coming from it. The name for the AoE taunt was originally supposed to be something like "Major Irritation Field Generator" (similar in theme to Sonic Missile) before I decided that it just seemed too long. Essentially, the only attacks that are actually done *with* your bare hands and feet are explicitly those that involve you explicitly contacting someone with your hands and feet and, even then, said generator is probably generating some inertial un-dampener to make you hit harder. Most of these effects would be incorporated in a thematic sense as part of the particle effects of the attacks short term blue spheres that encircle/move/etc. Vortex Spin would actually have the generator create what looks like waves to deal damage and pull in everyone, and Avalanche Strike would have some kind of short term visible energy field that builds up around you as you're in the air leaping that expands/explodes when you land.

So, as I see it, the Echani are using the generators as part of combat already. Of course, since they're not *actual* pieces of armor and are instead ranged effect field generators, it doesn't make sense to hit someone with the actual physical generator, but rather the durable/powerful field said generator develops.

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I use her because the Echani shields (and shields in general) in KoToR always had graphics that made me believe they were placed on the forearm/wrist.
I know in KotOR they're on your arm (that's explicitly where you equip them; of course, even then, they're still not like standard arm bands and are still high tech pieces of ranged effect field generation equipment so playing Wonder Woman with them still doesn't make much sense since, even in TOR, the Echani shields have to be activated and don't require strange proficiencies to use properly like defensive armbands would), but, iirc, Shield Generators are, in TOR, supposed to be clipped to your belt (I think there's a loading screen tip or something about that). I think the implementation I currently use (the fields themselves being used as an offensive tool to compliment their existing martial arts moves) works as a better concept than them just being super engineered real world armor slapped over your normal bracers.
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
04.01.2013 , 09:49 PM | #70
Quote: Originally Posted by Canino View Post
Alright, I've read the first chapter of the Echani story and overall I like it. I'll break it down planet by planet.
The set up for the Echani story was supposed to be somewhat derivative of Wushu/Kung-Fu movies. I'm not sure if that got through though.

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Coruscant
  • I think the Senator should be corrupt, and the "Senatorial Aid" may be vying for his/her position. They help you once you expose the senator.
I wrote the Coruscant story *really* vaguely. There are almost not actual details, just a *really* basic write up on the theme/progression. The equivalent of the "good student that works for the evil teacher" applied to Senatorial politics would make sense, especially if said corrupt Senator dispatches assassins to take out the Aid once he discovers the betrayal and it's required to have you go rescue said Aid in order to not have the corrupt Senator get away with whatever s/he was doing.

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Taris
  • I really love Taris. At the same time, it was a tad confusing, but with dialogue that confusion would be removed.
The inspiration for Taris sprung from the Taris Dueling Ring, though, in the context of a Kun-Fu moving, it's supposed to be reminiscent of an archetypal "quest for the secret scroll": instead of a scroll recorded by a great master with secrets of combat discovered by him/her, it's the non-Jedi/Sith Star Wars equivalent. You don't really need diagrams when you can just look at specific attacks in actual use in flawlessly recorded 3-D holograms.

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Nar Shaddaa
  • I like it, just make sure it doesn't get too repetitive. Perhaps at the second arena, add something instead of just a conversation. Perhaps you are intercepted by a gang or so, just to add to the suspense of who Zindane is. Maybe he escapes during the fight, or hired the gang to test you. Either way, adding another battle or moment of suspense would benefit the story.
I don't see Zidane hiring thugs to take you out. His "Kung-Fu archetype" is the "mysterious stranger": at the beginning, you're not sure if he's a potential ally or an enemy, but you *do* know he's skilled enough to be a threat or a great assistant. It's only after you forge the bonds of friendship by saving each other in a fight that you learn that he's actually a good guy. I kind of want him to be something of a "drunken master" type: he's pretty much at an all time low at the point he joins you so it would make sense for him to be in something of an inebriated stupor, though, rather than making him fight more effectively, the booze just kind of dulls the pain of his existence. Rather than a master of drunken combat, he's more of just a master who happens to be drunk.



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Alderaan
Alright. I have a bone to pick with Alderaan. It seems as though the entire planet is basically saying, I lost it, go to [INSERT TOWN/CITY HERE] to get it rinse and repeat. It needs some spice. I understand that you end up fighting all the houses, but maybe have he/she get the sword and then have it be stolen by house Ulgo? This would create an emotional response to the player, which may make them want revenge, hence the attack on Ulgo. Now, sure, the scion that is captured works. But I feel as though the assassin should be house Ulgo, and you steal the sword and have him steal it back. Then have the scion be kidnapped and carry on.
I really wanted to get across the idea that Brathe Organa is a monumental *******: he's the spoiled rich kid who thinks he can do no wrong (and, even if things go wrong, it's not *his* job to fix it) and is all about the massively outdated rules of honor and conduct that are all the rage on Alderaan. The story, since it's how you get him, is largely focused on framing that aspect: *he* loses the sword, *he* gets kidnapped, etc. The idea is that, as the real warrior, you're the only one that isn't regularly screwing up because these people have the *strangest* romantic ideas about fighting.

I believe I chose the specific houses as I progressed through the story based upon their location. It could be that it was a Scion of House Ulgo that defeated Brathe in an honor duel during a skirmish near the Ulgo encampment near House Organa who then headed to House Baliss to train those sad sacks of **** to actually be effective allies for House Ulgo. The general theme is really supposed to be something along the lines of "those silly nobles" though, since you're the Echani are a *very* pragmatic meritocracy and the Alderannians are almost culturally obsessed with status, position, birth, and stringent codes of conduct.
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