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The Scrapper's Handbook: A PvP Guide

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Smuggler > Scoundrel
The Scrapper's Handbook: A PvP Guide

Kiteera's Avatar


Kiteera
03.12.2013 , 03:49 AM | #111
So if I understand correctly the accuracy doesn't make a huge difference (only a couple DPS), but it is an improvement. So in general we shouldn't massively go out of our way to hit the accuracy enhancements, but when finalizing and doing the last bit of min-maxing we'd want them?

Wainamoinen's Avatar


Wainamoinen
03.12.2013 , 08:26 AM | #112
1) If you're PvE and fighting bosses, agree that you probably want to cap accuracy. Not a concern for PvP to the best of my knowledge.

I think you may be too optimistic in your crit chance, which will affect surge's value. In two pieces of Conqueror and the rest Partisan on PTS, (think EWH and WH for 2.0) my crit chance is about 22%. Maybe the PvE stuff will give more - but it would have to be ridiculously more to take crit chance back up to 1.7 levels. Crit stat really has been gutted, and the crit you get from main stat reduced too.

Alacrity and Surge are in competition; Surge is better at zero but still has a pretty steep decline in usefulness, so you'll probably want to start with Surge but switch over to Alacrity pretty soon.

2) Worth noting: the main-stat budget on mods seems to have been increased in 2.0. So where before it made sense to get the low-End/low-Cunning/high-secondary-stat mods, it may now be better to go low-End/high-Cunning/low-secondary-stat .

3) Crit nerf again. This really can't be understated. I was playing with some numbers, and all else being equal it would make no sense for my PTS character to take any Crit at all until I had (Power+Tech Power) up past 5000 somewhere. That's so extreme it makes me wonder whether Bioware really have kept everything else equal. Hence...

Our Ranged abilities are trivial; we have no Melee or Force abilities at all. The base average damage from Tech abilities boils down to:

(coefficient * bonus damage) + ((StandardHealthMin + StandardHealthMax)/2 * StandardHealth)

coefficient, StandardHealthMin, StandardHealthMax = constants that are set for each ability
bonus damage = comes from Cunning, Power and Tech Power
StandardHealth = a constant dependent on character level (1610 at level 50)

The split in the two components is about 87% / 13% between the left (bonus damage) and right (character level)parts. I'd expect StandardHealth to increase to a figure of around 1730 at level 55. A rough guess, I couldn't see a pattern in its advance by level.

OK, here comes the point: with the nerf to Crit (and without crit chance Surge is less useful too), Power is made proportionately more important - you basically want Power, unless you can get main stat (or Expertise if PvP), and forget Crit or anything else. UNLESS they have also revamped all the ability modifiers and constants, in which case it's a new ball game. Specifically, if they have changed ability coefficients - the figure bonus damage is multiplied to work out an abilitiy's damage - then that would be an effective nerf to Power. That would require starting again on any stat-balancing models (like I've made myself, and got the 5000+ Power figure above from).

This is speculation, and would require going into the PTS files to check the code for the abilities, but if Bioware have done that it would mitigate some of the enormous nerf to Crit they seem to want to make. Would be a lot of work though, as it'd mean changing constants on all the many abilities in the game rather than just the Crit equation. Unless they've tweaked how damage is calculated. Hmm.

I'll stop now, too esoteric.

TL;DR: Scrapper 2.0 suggestion: it seems Crit is terrible, get Power. Accuracy to 8% for PvE, don't bother if PvP; then maybe 200 Surge and the rest in Alacrity. UNLESS Bioware have quietly altered ability stats or damage equations.
It's a small world and it smells funny, I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money.
Ilmarinen 55 Scoundrel (Red Eclipse)

randiesel's Avatar


randiesel
03.13.2013 , 11:25 AM | #113
Sucks that we're so far behind the PTs and smashers now. I can beat out a lot of the good ones on live, but I'm doing half their damage on pts, not to mention living about 10 secs out of stealth.

ktkenshinx's Avatar


ktkenshinx
03.13.2013 , 12:34 PM | #114
Quote: Originally Posted by randiesel View Post
Sucks that we're so far behind the PTs and smashers now. I can beat out a lot of the good ones on live, but I'm doing half their damage on pts, not to mention living about 10 secs out of stealth.
Yeah this is a serious problem. Smashers are one thing because their Smash AOE always artificially increases their damage output at the end of a WZ. If they get a 7k Smash and hit 4 people with it, that's about 28k damage right there from one move. It's a problem that they are getting 7k Smashes regularly when I am barely seeing any 6k Shoot Firsts or BBs, but hey, we have other things going for us that they don't.

PTs, however, are another matter. That's a predominantly single target damage spec and they are hitting way, way harder than we are in almost every respect. Don't even get me started on that PT hybrid build; whoever thinks that is a fair spec is either a PT player themselves or has no concept whatsoever as to class balance.

A fix on the crit diminishing returns would be enough to help us out. That was a really stupid change anyway and whoever thought it would reduce TTK clearly had not played a WZ in the last 5 months. But something does need to change from the current 2.0 state.
The Outlaw Miyke Fink: Scrapper, Prophecy of the Five
See you, space cowboys!: Formerly of Brown Coats
---THE SCRAPPER'S HANDBOOK: A PvP Guide---

randiesel's Avatar


randiesel
03.13.2013 , 01:59 PM | #115
Miyke, you bring a smile to my face just thinking about a 7k only smash. Sadly, I've been seeing from 9.5 all the way up to 10.7k on the pts, usually around 8.6k though. I have gotten a HS or SF for 7.1k, but that was a lucky strike and I haven't even been itemizing my gear properly.

Yeah, and that hybrid PT spec, I honestly haven't even looked into what it may be, is what everyone is playing and they are practically unbeatable. Now you take that and multiply that by 4, b/c that's the avg amount of PTs I've seen per each match, and they are just dominating. How BW has not made a SINGLE balance change yet, since they assure us that they collect internal data, is *********** insulting.

And with no balance changes, combined with the upcoming double xp weekends, it's looking like this is how it's going to market.

Wainamoinen's Avatar


Wainamoinen
03.14.2013 , 07:25 AM | #116
My main wouldn't copy at first, then I didn't keep any logs during the first bolster bug plus then Scamper broken. Finally started once that had been fixed, but then pops were slower, so my logs aren't as complete as I'd like. Also, any values will still be affected by PTS screwiness (like how do you tell whether someone was affected by Bolster Bug II: the Demoddening?).

Also, I try to gear as well as I can. So got the 2-piece bonus from enforcer and field/tech professional gear (which does share their set bonus, at least when I tried it), and a couple of pieces of conqueror gear (not guns).

Having put all those caveats, my biggest hit was a 7.7k Back Blast. Bit funny, as Shoot First is still generally in front of BB. Highest SF is 7.6k with the odd 7.5k thrown in. Also got a Sabo Charge of 7k, and a Sucker Punch at 6k.

Incoming - which is a better measure for comparison, as it's all on the same target (me), so no worries about someone coming to warzones dressed in a tutu and getting turned into pate - my logs report highest hit as Smash (inevitably), at 8.5k.

I sorted for hits bigger than 7k, it's all Smash, Smash, Smash bar two big Vicious Throws. Note that I've seen a fair amount of scoundrels and operatives - people trying out the class with Scamper/Exfiltrate or DF/Lethality builds I expect - and though I've eaten noticeably more Hidden Strikes, Backstabs, etc., none of them have been hard enough to get up near the Warrior abilities.

Would like to get more data but PTS warzones are a bit dead at my play times at the minute. Maybe more luck at weekends.

I've been putting an overcomplicated set of graph and table together to try to illustrate damage taken by ability, Live and PTS. Will post it when I get home if I can stop feeling too tired to bother.
It's a small world and it smells funny, I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money.
Ilmarinen 55 Scoundrel (Red Eclipse)

Wainamoinen's Avatar


Wainamoinen
03.14.2013 , 07:31 AM | #117
Quote: Originally Posted by randiesel View Post
Yeah, and that hybrid PT spec, I honestly haven't even looked into what it may be, is what everyone is playing and they are practically unbeatable.
God yes, PTs have only got worse. In the "they are a nightmare" sense. That baseline hydraulic overrides is a pain in the backside I didn't need. Also, slingers/snipers aren't so much of a free lunch any more. Leaving JK/SW and Smash so far ahead when making far-reaching class changes is a ridiculous decision. It takes a fair amount to make me angry about a game, but that's getting there.

Quote: Originally Posted by randiesel View Post
And with no balance changes, combined with the upcoming double xp weekends, it's looking like this is how it's going to market.
I hope you're wrong, I fear you're right.
It's a small world and it smells funny, I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money.
Ilmarinen 55 Scoundrel (Red Eclipse)

ktkenshinx's Avatar


ktkenshinx
03.14.2013 , 05:23 PM | #118
Quote: Originally Posted by randiesel View Post
And with no balance changes, combined with the upcoming double xp weekends, it's looking like this is how it's going to market.
BW has heard our concerns and started to respond appropriately! Let it no longer be said that BW does not care about PvP and the voice of the community:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=608719

Specifically, there's this gem:
Quote:
Classes and Combat
  • Increased amount of critical chance given per point of primary attribute (Aim, Cunning, Strength, Willpower).
  • Increased amount of critical chance given per point of Critical rating.
  • Reduced effectiveness of Absorb and Shield rating; as compensation, the base damage of Champion NPCs has also been reduced
And then there is the death of that god awful PT hybrid:
Quote:
Advanced Prototype
  • Charged Gauntlets has been redesigned. While High Energy Gas Cylinder is active, damage dealt by Rocket Punch makes the next Rail Shot an automatic critical hit. The Powertech skill tree has been rearranged, making Charged Gauntlets require Prototype Cylinder Ventilation instead of Serrated Blades
  • Power Loaders no longer increases ranged critical chance.
  • Prototype Cylinders now further improves the internal and elemental damage done while High Energy Gas Cylinder is active by 1% (down from 3%).
  • Prototype Weapon Systems now increases Retractable Blade critical damage, but no longer increases Flame Burst critical damage.

Pyrotech (Powertech)
  • Thermal Detonator has been redesigned. The Bounty Hunter now hurls a thermal detonator that adheres to the target and detonates after several seconds, exploding for kinetic damage and burning the target for elemental damage over 12 seconds. Standard and weak enemies enter a state of panic when the explosive attaches and are knocked down when it explodes.
  • Firebug (Powertech) no longer increases the critical damage done by Power Shot, but now increases the critical damage done by Flame Burst.
  • Rain of Fire (Powertech) no longer increases Unload damage to burning targets.
These changes (read: Nerfs) to Pyrotech really increase the viability of our spec. And they were badly needed regardless of what the Scrappers thought.
The Outlaw Miyke Fink: Scrapper, Prophecy of the Five
See you, space cowboys!: Formerly of Brown Coats
---THE SCRAPPER'S HANDBOOK: A PvP Guide---

Thatcrazyasian's Avatar


Thatcrazyasian
03.18.2013 , 08:35 AM | #119
Huzzah!!

Starhugger's Avatar


Starhugger
03.18.2013 , 02:18 PM | #120
Hey Boss'

Great guide, much love. Can't really think about anything you could add but I have some questions.

Could you please tell me how gearing is going to change in 2.0 considering the usage of PVE shells? I just absolutely hate most of our armor skins yet I love the 15% BB crit. Is this still going to be an issue in 2,0?

Also, what do you think about scamper I found it really frustrating that I roll wherever the camera looks and not where my char does, also won't everyone cry nerf? I noticed how much distance I can roll down with some energy management and its unbelievable after having had to wait almost every fire in HBALL.
I'm just interested about how it will affect your warzone guides and when/if we will see it updated to 2.0.

Thanks again for the guide!
Never forget Serenity Valley! :P
Edmont WTHS of Dai Bendu (Way Too Handsome Scoundrel)