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Republic/Empire unbalanced enemies

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Republic/Empire unbalanced enemies

Darth_Romana's Avatar


Darth_Romana
01.30.2013 , 11:00 AM | #1
Note: the whole post contains SPOILERS which is why I'm not tagging it, please take this in mind when reading.


This is more apparent in the later stages of the game, ie Act 3, but is plenty clear enough in Act 1 and 2. The Imperial classes tend to expend their time hunting other Imperials, while Republic classes get to directly attack the Empire.This is most obvious on Corellia, in both class stories and the world arc. While most Republic classes deal their blows to Empire, only one Imperial class directly damages the Republic.

Darth Decimus, Darth Acharon and Darth Hadra all die at the hands of the Republic on Corellia, shortly afterwards Darth Thanaton, Darth Arho and Darth Baras die as a result of Sith infighting. That's half the Dark Council, in the game's last moments.

Though not through Republic involvement, the Sith Empire also loses Imperial Intelligence.

Conversely, the Imperials kill no members of the Jedi Council (bar the First Son, a servant of the Emperor) - and only get to kill the unimportant 'Green Jedi Council'. True the Bounty Hunter kills/captures the Supreme Chancellor - no doubt a blow to the Republic, but oppositely the Jedi Knight (seemingly) kills the Sith Emperor - clearly a far bigger blow than the Supreme Chancellor.

Following this in the novel - Darth Karrid is killed at the hands of the Republic - who make fools the Empire, breaking into the Minister of Logistics fortress on the Sith world of Ziost. Add a 7th to the Dark Council death toll, in a short period of time.

Yes we know ultimately the Empire loses, but this quickly? I didn't think they would start killing of the Empire so early into it's existence - they're working with a blank slate, clearly the Empire's story could last centuries more. I'm hoping that this will be the case, and there will be a resurgence in the Empire's war effort - and Imperial charactors get to kill notble Republic charactors - such as Satile Shan (perhaps for the Sith Warrior).

Story wise the game seems completely unbalanced to me, and on a technical note - how is it feasible that a Smuggler or Trooper could kill a Dark Council member like Darth Decimious?...

Never_Hesitate's Avatar


Never_Hesitate
01.30.2013 , 11:09 AM | #2
It's pretty easy to understand:
The empire has internal conflicts going on through the sith governement and that results in: The empire fights the empire
The goal of the jedi is to destroy the sith: the republic fights the empire

As HK-51 says in one of the dialogues (paraphrased): The empires internal conflicts have to stop, a united empire would be able to destroy the republic.
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psandak's Avatar


psandak
01.30.2013 , 11:59 AM | #3
I agree with Never_Hesitate's assessment. The fact that advancement can only be achieved by killing your superior, is an unsustainable method of governance. This eventually leads Darth Bane to implement the Rule of Two.

Another issue you are probably not taking into account is that ALL sci-fi stories tend to have is a general lack of concrete passage of time.

There are several examples of this in the Star Wars universe. One of which is...

- the entire sequence of the Falcon evading the Empire in ESB:
  • how long did the Falcon evade the Empire before entering the asteroid field?
  • how long did the Falcon sit the belly of the asteroid beast before they figured out they were in the belly of an animal?
  • how long was the sub-light journey from the asteroid belt (in the "no-oid" system to Bespin)?
    [*}how long were they in Cloud City before Lando brought them to "dinner" with Darth Vader?
And during all this time Luke is on Dagobah with Yoda in Jedi training.
In movie time that whole sequence only took about 30 minutes, but it was probably months if not a year.

In this game the JK spends a year under the influence of the Emperor, but the time goes almost instantly for the player - there is a fade to black and fade back in.

And all the other class and planet stories happen in parallel. Chances are that several years pass during the leveling 1-50 process.

In addition, unlike in real life where many evil leaders build their "empires" over time and by the time the rest of the world realizes what is going on, it often too late...in SWTOR the Republic realizes what the Empire is doing and quickly swoops in to prevent it. Which is why the "war" is so short. The Sith Council is decimated and now the Empire has to start over again.

Lastly, as to how a smuggler or trooper can kill a Sith Council member like Darth Decimus - call it what you will, but in every story the hero has to defeat the villain eventually. Whether by luck or skill, the hero wins in the end.

maxetius's Avatar


maxetius
01.30.2013 , 12:55 PM | #4
Quote:
how is it feasible that a Smuggler or Trooper could kill a Dark Council member like Darth Decimious?
Pluck, grit, and determination. It's pretty clear that all of the protagonists are "strong" in the Force, even if they can't see, or use it.

If you play a Bounty Hunter you get to enjoy several instances of skill and technology triumphing over powerful Force Users, such as

Spoiler

Darth_Romana's Avatar


Darth_Romana
01.30.2013 , 01:13 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by psandak View Post
I agree with Never_Hesitate's assessment. The fact that advancement can only be achieved by killing your superior, is an unsustainable method of governance. This eventually leads Darth Bane to implement the Rule of Two.

Another issue you are probably not taking into account is that ALL sci-fi stories tend to have is a general lack of concrete passage of time.

There are several examples of this in the Star Wars universe. One of which is...

- the entire sequence of the Falcon evading the Empire in ESB:
  • how long did the Falcon evade the Empire before entering the asteroid field?
  • how long did the Falcon sit the belly of the asteroid beast before they figured out they were in the belly of an animal?
  • how long was the sub-light journey from the asteroid belt (in the "no-oid" system to Bespin)?
    [*}how long were they in Cloud City before Lando brought them to "dinner" with Darth Vader?
And during all this time Luke is on Dagobah with Yoda in Jedi training.
In movie time that whole sequence only took about 30 minutes, but it was probably months if not a year.

In this game the JK spends a year under the influence of the Emperor, but the time goes almost instantly for the player - there is a fade to black and fade back in.

And all the other class and planet stories happen in parallel. Chances are that several years pass during the leveling 1-50 process.

In addition, unlike in real life where many evil leaders build their "empires" over time and by the time the rest of the world realizes what is going on, it often too late...in SWTOR the Republic realizes what the Empire is doing and quickly swoops in to prevent it. Which is why the "war" is so short. The Sith Council is decimated and now the Empire has to start over again.

Lastly, as to how a smuggler or trooper can kill a Sith Council member like Darth Decimus - call it what you will, but in every story the hero has to defeat the villain eventually. Whether by luck or skill, the hero wins in the end.
I get that, but regardless of the time-scale and Sith infighting there is a disproportionate amount of Imperial deaths in comparison to Republic ones - and the Republic deaths there tend to be far less significant. E.g. Death of a significant Dark Council member in Republic Corellia arc, death of previously unknown Green Jedi Council in Imperial Corellia arc. Further many who the Republic kill are actually featured in the Empire storyline or atleast well known - Darth Lachris, Darth Malgus, Darth Angral, Darth Decimous and the Sith Emperor, to name a few.

Apart from the Supreme Chancellor, I can't think of any significant Republic deaths (characters we've heard of) in the Imperial storylines - no Jedi Council members for example.

Quote: Originally Posted by maxetius View Post
Pluck, grit, and determination. It's pretty clear that all of the protagonists are "strong" in the Force, even if they can't see, or use it.

If you play a Bounty Hunter you get to enjoy several instances of skill and technology triumphing over powerful Force Users, such as

Spoiler
That's true... but if one quotes from the films (as the developers did, constantly), you see Jango Fett and Boba Fett able to go toe to toe with powerful Jedi Knights, where as the idea of Han Solo fighting Darth Vader is ridiculous.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
01.30.2013 , 06:07 PM | #6
The Empire loses more because the Empire is the bad guy. No matter how much BW tries to show that the Republic has all these flaws, in the end, everyone knows The Empire is the villain of the story. Whether the Empire is your favorite side to play on or not, it will always be the villain.

Storytelling doesn't mean both sides should lose equally either, just because there are Empire players. Empire is going to lose. You know that going in.

As for Bounty Hunters/Smugglers taking on Jedi/Sith. Why are you limiting it to those two? If you're going by the movies, how does ANYONE who isn't trained in the force able to beat a Jedi/Sith? Jango only held his own for so long and Boba we never really see fight Jedi. Boba at most ensnared Luke, who then broke out of it.

This basically comes down to the game needing to accomodate the players.

Darth_Romana's Avatar


Darth_Romana
01.30.2013 , 06:41 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
The Empire loses more because the Empire is the bad guy. No matter how much BW tries to show that the Republic has all these flaws, in the end, everyone knows The Empire is the villain of the story. Whether the Empire is your favorite side to play on or not, it will always be the villain..
You misunderstand my point, and clearly you misunderstand the game. I wonder if it's really worth explaining it to you...

As Anakin memorably pointed out in Revenge of the Sith - Evil is not an objective term, it's a point of view. What the Jedi and Republic consider sadism, the Sith and Imperials consider ruthness. And the Jedi's restraint on emotion is seen to the Sith as mental imprisonment, and to the Empire as sanctimonious. TOR makes clear that the Republic are enemies, and to the people of the Empire they are to be feared.

In NO Imperial class story or world arc is the 'Empire' the "villain of the story", Darth Thanaton was archaic, and Darth Baras was a usurper - both the Inquisitor and Warrior are clear that defeating them are in their, and the Empire's best interests. As does the Agent, regardless of his/her alignment.

Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
Storytelling doesn't mean both sides should lose equally either, just because there are Empire players. Empire is going to lose. You know that going in.
Nope, it's clear to any player that neither the Empire nor the Republic are going to lose. For that is no place for a story driven game that accommodates players of both factions to go. When the final ever piece of content is added to TOR, it will not feature the end of the Empire. Of that I am certain.

Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
As for Bounty Hunters/Smugglers taking on Jedi/Sith. Why are you limiting it to those two? If you're going by the movies, how does ANYONE who isn't trained in the force able to beat a Jedi/Sith? Jango only held his own for so long and Boba we never really see fight Jedi. Boba at most ensnared Luke, who then broke out of it.

This basically comes down to the game needing to accomodate the players.
Saying it comes down to "game needing to accommodate the players" is meaningless, as it totally ignores what my original point actually was.

Quellryloth's Avatar


Quellryloth
01.30.2013 , 07:54 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Romana View Post
As Anakin memorably pointed out in Revenge of the Sith - Evil is not an objective term, it's a point of view.
You can call it whatever you want, but it still comes with an inherent weakness: its adherents tend to spend entirely too much time positioning themselves so as to stab each other in the back. In the face of a determined external adversary, such internal squabbling is costly and this is what you see in the game.

DAWUSS's Avatar


DAWUSS
01.30.2013 , 09:10 PM | #9
Isn't it typical for a losing side during a war to start a phase of infighting and power grabs, seeing there's clearly something wrong with the current leadership?

Pefny's Avatar


Pefny
02.02.2013 , 10:05 AM | #10
Empire discrimination in SWTOR has bigger range than that. For ex. RoHC trailer - We can only see Republic response. Also in main SWTOR cinematics we can't see Imperial Agent, when all other classes have their episodes. In some of FPs enemies have "links" with Empier - Mandalorian Riders, The Red Ripper. Ofc they are defectors etc but I'm sure that in such huge creation like Galactic Republic must be some groups who don't agree with current political stalemate - I met some kind of this on Balmorra during BH storyline.
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