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comparing sorcs and snipers

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sage / Sorcerer
comparing sorcs and snipers
 

AdmiralParmesan's Avatar


AdmiralParmesan
01.29.2013 , 03:36 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by wwkingms View Post
even the lowly merc/commando class can crit and get bigger single target numbers though if left to free cast
grav round/traver spammed at 3k each and the finisher ability ii forget them name crits for 5k

we really have the most pathetic single target dmg
Yeah its true, our single target damage is shameful. While it is possible to set up good burst in lightning it is still lacking compared to easier more efficient burst other classes have. If sustained AOE was important in this game we would be one of the best, sadly it is not and so we fit no real purpose in a group.
Depreva (Sith Sorcerer) - Prophecy of the Five-

ZipZep's Avatar


ZipZep
01.29.2013 , 08:11 AM | #22
Sages may not have a generic ability like legshot, but my sniper cant friendly pull people either. He cant convieniently LoS and heal himself for a few 1000 hp. He cant remove DoT's either, making him extremely weak exactly agianst Madness Sorcs so I find it a little ironic people are complain about that 1 vs 1 matchup, cause a duel between a good madness sorc and a good sniper regardless of spec is always gonna favor the sorc who playes patiently and LoS.

Madness sorcs dont have burst, but in a wz will achieve higher dps given the same circumstances as a sniper. How many times have you seen a sniper go +1k dps? I know quite a few sorcs on ToFN who has, and do so reguarly.
Its a different kind of dmg yes, but the pressure it applies on enemy healers is pretty intense.

And yes, I agree Lightning tree is useless for everythinhgexcept stun bubbles for hybrid healer.
Whasp - Herbs & Derps PvP guild ToFN

Slacking Engineer Sniper and Worst Mara EU

ZipZep's Avatar


ZipZep
01.29.2013 , 08:06 PM | #23
The strongest rated setups on ToFN run dps sages and sorcs every day. Sorry man, but its very viable for rated but ill grant it requires better team play then just bringing along an extra pyro.

as I also said in my post which you obviously didnt reat, i acknowledge that you cant compare sorc and sniper numbers. In my opinion the DoT's from a madness sorc is a source to constant pressure on enemy healers.

And please stop with the personal attack, i wasnt being rude or anything.
Whasp - Herbs & Derps PvP guild ToFN

Slacking Engineer Sniper and Worst Mara EU

wwkingms's Avatar


wwkingms
01.29.2013 , 08:26 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by ZipZep View Post
The strongest rated setups on ToFN run dps sages and sorcs every day. Sorry man, but its very viable for rated but ill grant it requires better team play then just bringing along an extra pyro.

as I also said in my post which you obviously didnt reat, i acknowledge that you cant compare sorc and sniper numbers. In my opinion the DoT's from a madness sorc is a source to constant pressure on enemy healers.

And please stop with the personal attack, i wasnt being rude or anything.
madness can do some single target pressure but it lacks force management, its lacks knockback snare (which should be baseline imo LIKE snipers) it lacks force effusion.

the sorc lightning tree should have competative numbers to snipers, shock should be buffed int he lightning tree to crit about 4.5k and thundering blast could be changed to an execute type ability.. regardless of what they do its a tree that needs to hard cast abilities and yet still does very little dmg with no defense mechanics that compare to snipers (aside from a handy bubble stun)

i like the suggestion ive heard that parasitism should be changed to restore force

at first glance sorcs have a big resource pool... however say a 7/3/31 madness sorc, only has 500 force.. an ability like shock costs 45 force, force lightning costs 100 etc... sorcs have the slowest resource regen and no REAL resource free attack
NIHIL

THE BASTION

NoTomorrow's Avatar


NoTomorrow
01.30.2013 , 05:02 AM | #25
I understand that sorcerers are frustrated, but they should also be reasonable in their demands.

First of all, compared to sorcs we have never been a FOTM OP class. Our weakness are well established so that many classes can exploit that. The warzone maps layout is designed in such a way that no sniper can have 360 degree unobstructed field of view 35m range from him. In any scenario we have fo deal with enemies that can completely negate our damage by simply walking behind a rock.

If you are at full HP, rooting then explsive probe + ambush + ft will never kill you single handedly. So dont bring roots as the ultimate hard counter to your LoSing.

Our cover pulse is different from yours for many reasons: We need to be in cover, we cannot turn in any direction while in cover, so conal would be stupid. We have a baseline root, because we have no tools to disengage from a battle. We are there until we die or we kill. Our cover pulse is on 30min CD compared to your ridiculously low 20s CD. Compared to you we have no damage component at all, while you can use it to knock stealthers out of stealth.

People that played beta said that snipers had no interrupt immunity, which made the class a complete joke incapable to do crap.

Since you can negate our damage by LoSing us, why should you be able to win in a straight direct fight? What point would be to play a sniper if they didnt have a specific field where they would excel at? We have been given specific tools to win DPS race scenarios. This is our strong point. Entrench, burst those are all necessary components.

Healers AC will never ever get an execution ability. It is balanced. Since healers have the stats as good as DPSers, an execution ability will be way too OP for them. Imagine you can be a full healer and be able to fire 5000 damage executes. This would be way too much for a healer specced. Sorry but executes dont belong to a baseline abilities of healer AC.

Please stop saying how force speed is useless. More balls have been scored with force speed than have been stopped by legshots. Its an incredibly useful ability, dont try to make it look like force speed is a liability.

There are things that should be improved foR DPS sorcerers (healer sorcs deserve nothing), but these things should certainly not be changed for DPS sorcs for the sake of balance:
  1. No root immunity or root cleansing. This is your counter and you have to master dealing with it. Same as we have to deal with stealthers.
  2. No burst for madness. You can have mobility, burst, range, pick only 2.
  3. No baseline execution ability. The only possible place for it can be very high in lightning tree.
  4. No baseline root on overload. Its in a perfect place and it needs to stay there. Madness doesnt need extra root.

Now come up with a list of changes for dps sorcs that are not listed above.
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Chemic_al's Avatar


Chemic_al
01.30.2013 , 06:16 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by NoTomorrow View Post
Healers AC will never ever get an execution ability. It is balanced. Since healers have the stats as good as DPSers, an execution ability will be way too OP for them. Imagine you can be a full healer and be able to fire 5000 damage executes. This would be way too much for a healer specced. Sorry but executes dont belong to a baseline abilities of healer AC.

Please stop saying how force speed is useless. More balls have been scored with force speed than have been stopped by legshots. Its an incredibly useful ability, dont try to make it look like force speed is a liability.
No sorc is going to be carrying the ball, those scores are on sins/shadows.

We can't cleanse a sniper root, our cc is next to useless, unlike a snipers.

Hell it's okay for for warriors and agents to chain mez groups for nigh on 14+ secs with their instant long AoE mezzes. Compare that to whirlwind, single target, with a cast. Instant on a dot spec..... And even the one for extra targets doesn't work in wzs.

Hmm, light armour? No effective method of keeping melee way. And no "oh cr@p!" defensive CD, even as the supposed force masters, we can't use the force to protect us with shroud, nope that goes to our much more useful sin cousins.

And let's be honest here, ranked team has one ranged dps spot open, for a sorc or sniper, who are they going to pick? They are going to pick the sniper. Orbital strike alone is huge in node denial, and it actually hurts when in it, unlike Force Storm. (So yeah another plus incidentally for scoundrel/op healer over sorc/sage btw)

Deimosmp's Avatar


Deimosmp
01.30.2013 , 09:31 AM | #27
When I do rateds with my guild I'm very often the only ranged DPS for the group. I'm capable of getting 4-6k crits with Deathfield when I use this spec:

Madness (Deathfield Primary spec)
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201G0bZbZcMfRsrkRfz.2

Since it can hit up to three targets I'd say thats pretty bursty. Having the ability to do that from ranged gives you an advantage. But since I prefer the Lightning spec over Madness I use this for most ranked. The amount of collateral damage I put out from Chain lightning procs can be devastating.

Lightning Hybrid
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#20...Rr0zZcMcRsMz.2

Sorcerers have superior mobility compared to snipers. Any sorc that is standing out in the open taking hits and neglecting to move is doing it wrong. You should be moving and repositioning yourself 90% of the time.
Darç - The Harbinger - Ascendancy

I'm not sending subliminal messeges.

warstory's Avatar


warstory
01.30.2013 , 12:53 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by NoTomorrow View Post
I understand that sorcerers are frustrated, but they should also be reasonable in their demands.

First of all, compared to sorcs we have never been a FOTM OP class. Our weakness are well established so that many classes can exploit that. The warzone maps layout is designed in such a way that no sniper can have 360 degree unobstructed field of view 35m range from him. In any scenario we have fo deal with enemies that can completely negate our damage by simply walking behind a rock.

If you are at full HP, rooting then explsive probe + ambush + ft will never kill you single handedly. So dont bring roots as the ultimate hard counter to your LoSing.

Our cover pulse is different from yours for many reasons: We need to be in cover, we cannot turn in any direction while in cover, so conal would be stupid. We have a baseline root, because we have no tools to disengage from a battle. We are there until we die or we kill. Our cover pulse is on 30min CD compared to your ridiculously low 20s CD. Compared to you we have no damage component at all, while you can use it to knock stealthers out of stealth.

People that played beta said that snipers had no interrupt immunity, which made the class a complete joke incapable to do crap.

Since you can negate our damage by LoSing us, why should you be able to win in a straight direct fight? What point would be to play a sniper if they didnt have a specific field where they would excel at? We have been given specific tools to win DPS race scenarios. This is our strong point. Entrench, burst those are all necessary components.

Healers AC will never ever get an execution ability. It is balanced. Since healers have the stats as good as DPSers, an execution ability will be way too OP for them. Imagine you can be a full healer and be able to fire 5000 damage executes. This would be way too much for a healer specced. Sorry but executes dont belong to a baseline abilities of healer AC.

Please stop saying how force speed is useless. More balls have been scored with force speed than have been stopped by legshots. Its an incredibly useful ability, dont try to make it look like force speed is a liability.

There are things that should be improved foR DPS sorcerers (healer sorcs deserve nothing), but these things should certainly not be changed for DPS sorcs for the sake of balance:
  1. No root immunity or root cleansing. This is your counter and you have to master dealing with it. Same as we have to deal with stealthers.
  2. No burst for madness. You can have mobility, burst, range, pick only 2.
  3. No baseline execution ability. The only possible place for it can be very high in lightning tree.
  4. No baseline root on overload. Its in a perfect place and it needs to stay there. Madness doesnt need extra root.

Now come up with a list of changes for dps sorcs that are not listed above.

i personally think madness is fine i do well with it we have 3 cc plus knockback and bubble, madness plays very close to lethality sniper but less dmg and more roots

that being said lightning needs help all our abilities are shutdown against melee, we cant cleanse tech dmg and we can't win a 35 m or less fight against snipers nerf to stun made sure of that. my ideas are up over all dmg add knockback to thunder blast like ambush and up the double proc distrubance (sorry cant remeber sorcs name atm) from 33% to 100%. and our immunty to intertupts should be to all effects that should be enough imho.
toe to toe with a sniper at 35m dps war is not unreasonable to ask for and being able to strageticlly fight off melee is more than reasonable is logical.

warstory's Avatar


warstory
01.30.2013 , 01:42 PM | #29
We have one skill that is useful and that's stun bubble which is getting nerfed. There are classes such as sniper who can hit us for 6k fully gear and we hit them for 4k ? Does that make any sort of sense to anyone. I have played assassin all 3 spec and owned, jug all 3 specs and owned, sniper all 3 spec and owned. Sorc madness and owned but lightning...worst spec in game

warstory's Avatar


warstory
01.30.2013 , 01:50 PM | #30
Another idea I just turn cloud mind into a 8 sec cloak maybe then we could get a cast off lol