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The Tank Shadow Hybrid spec.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
The Tank Shadow Hybrid spec.

NamikazeNaruto's Avatar


NamikazeNaruto
01.29.2013 , 11:12 AM | #161
Tbh, I almost wonder how a Shadow's 22/17/2 http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/S...762l2-c78cif-c measures up to a Guardian's 27/12/2 http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/g...7j0ke8-20d2f-2 in terms of survivability and utility... let's compare


Defensive Cooldowns

22/17/2(Shadow)
-Blackout/Shadow's Respite(A shadow in 22/17/2 can get Shadow's Respite every 45 seconds, and it lasts for 6 seconds.
-Resilience(Has a 1 minute cooldown and grants you 5 seconds of CC immunity to all CCs that are force or tech based. Every time you shield, deflect, or parry an attack, the cooldown of Resilience is lowered 1 second, cannot proc more than once a second.)
-Deflection(Increases your ranged and melee defense by 50% for 12 seconds.)
-Kinetic Ward(increases your shield chance against melee and ranged attacks by 15% for 20 seconds. The amount of damage you absorb will depend on your absorption rating. Has a 12 second cooldown.)
-Force Cloak(Takes you out of combat. In 22/17/2 spec, you can be healed while you're in force cloak.)
-Warzone medpacs can be used more than once per fight because Force Cloak will refresh the medpac.


27/12/2(Guardian)
-Warding Call(Reduces all damage taken by 40% for 10 seconds. Has a 3 minute cooldown.)
-Focused Defense(Spends 1 focus to heal you for 3% of your health as long as you're taking damage. Lasts for 10 seconds. Cannot occur more than once per second. Can be used while stunned. Has a 45 second cooldown.)
-Saber Ward(Increases melee and ranged defense by 50% and reduces damage from force and tech attacks by 25%. Lasts 12 seconds. Has a 3 minute cooldown.)
-Enure(Increases your maximum health by 30% for 15 seconds. If you're low health and use this with a warzone medpac, you'll usually be healed back to near full health. Has a 1 minute 30 second cooldown.)



Passive Defenses/Talents

22/17/2(Shadow)
-Fade(Reduces area of effect damage by 30%[passive]. Also reduces the cooldown of blackout by 15 seconds, and Force Cloak by 30 seconds.)
-Celerity(Reduces the cooldown of your interrupt by 2 seconds, reduces the cooldown of your CC breaker by 30 seconds, and reduces the cooldown of force speed by 5 seconds.)
-Force Speed breaks roots
-Jedi Resistance(reduces all damage taken by 2%[passive])
-Mental Fortitude(increases endurance by 3%[passive])
-Impact Control(Increases shield absorption by 4%. In addition Combat Readiness heals you for 10% of your health.)


27/12/2(Guardian)
-Guard Stance(Increases melee and ranged defenses by 6% while in Soresu Form[passive])
-Blade Barricade(Riposte increases melee and ranged defense by 3% for 12 seconds.)
-Blade Barrier(Using Blade Storm activates Blade Barrier, which absorbs a moderate amount of damage for 10 seconds.)
-Sheld Specialization(Increases shield chance by 4%[passive])
-Inner Peace(Increases the duration of Enure by 4 seconds, and increases your elemental and internal damage reduction by 4%)
-Single Saber Mastery(Increases melee and ranged defense by 3% while in Soresu Form)
-Unremitting(Force Leap activates unremitting, which gives you 20% reduced damage taken and CC immunity for 4 seconds.)
-If you have the 2 piece Vindicator set bonus, using Guardian Leap heals you for 8% of your total health. It has a 20 second cooldown.


Crowd Control Abilities(CCs)/Utility


22/17/2(Shadow)
-Force Pull(pulls an enemy target to you. Has a 45 second cooldown. 10-30m range.)
-Force Stun(stuns the target for 4 seconds. 1 minute cooldown. 10m range.)
-Spinning Kick(Stuns the target for 2 seconds. 20 second cooldown. 4m range.)
-Mind Maze(Mezzes the target for 8 seconds. Only usable from stealth. No cooldown. 10m range)
-Force Wave(Knocks back all enemies in front of you. 20 second cooldown. 15m range)
-Force Slow(Slows target's movement speed by 50% for 6 seconds. 12 second cooldown. 10m range, 15m range with the stalker 2 set.)
-Mind Snap(Interrupts target's current action for 4 seconds. 10 second cooldown. 10m range.)


27/12/2(Guardian)
-Force Push(pushes a target away from you and knocks him down for 2 seconds. Also finishes the cooldown on your Force Leap. Has a 45 second cooldown. 10m range)
-Force Stasis(Stuns the target for 4 seconds. Has a 1 minute cooldown. 10m range.)
-Hilt Strike(Stuns the target for 4 seconds. Has a 1 minute cooldown. 4m range.)
-Awe(Mezzes all enemies for 6 seconds in an AoE. Has a 1 minute cooldown. 10m range)
-Force Leap(Leaps to a target and roots them for 3 seconds. Has a 15 second cooldown. 10-30m range.)
-Freezing Force(Reduces the movement speed of enemies in an AoE by 50% for 9 seconds. 10m range. Has no cooldown... in fact it operates on half a global cooldown.)


Comparison/Analysis
-Blackout/Shadow's Respite vs Warding Call(Blackout/Shadow's Respite has a slight advantage here because the cooldown is 4 times less than the cooldown of Warding Call.)

-Resilience vs Unremitting(Resilience has a slight edge here because it has the ability to block ALL force/tech attacks that come at you, as well as cleansing DoTs off yourself, as well as making you immune to all CC that is force/tech based. Unremitting can be used more often, but it only makes you CC immune and reduces the damage by 20%, not 100%.)

-Deflection vs Saber Ward(Saber Ward has a slight edge here because of the 25% added tech/force damage reduction. The only reason I say slight edge is because the cooldown on Deflection is 33% shorter than Saber Ward's cooldown.)

-Kinetic Ward vs Focused Defense(I would give Focused Defense the victory here, as endurance/health is the most important stat besides expertise. I'd rather have something that is capable of healing me for up to 30% over 10 seconds than having something that increases my shield chance by 15%. Still, kinetic ward is pretty much a permanent buff as the cooldown is over a lot of times before your 8 charges of Kinetic Ward are taken off.)

-Force Cloak/Warzone Medpac Refresh vs Enure/Warzone Medpac(I'd give Enure a slight victory here. The fact that with Enure and a warzone medpac you can pretty much go from low health to full health is pretty powerful. Though if you're in a game that the fighting is going on nonstop, it'd be better if you were able to refresh your medpac with Force Cloak. Even so, without a medpac, if you use Enure, as long as you have a good healer they can probably heal you back up.)

If we compared the Shadow passive damage reduction skills 22/17/2 to the passive Guardian damage reduction skills in 27/12/2, this is what we get.

-Shadow(32% AoE damage reduction, 4% increased shield absorption, 2% reduced damage, 3% increased endurance, 9% increased elemental and internal damage reduction, 1 minute 30 second CC breaker)
vs
-Guardian(9% melee and ranged defense, 4% increased shield chance, 4% increased elemental and internal damage reduction, 2 minute CC breaker.)

If we were going by this alone, I'd give Shadow the advantage here. However, Guardians get a lot of talents that increases their defenses passively for a time when doing certain moves(Blade Barrier, Blade Barracade, Unremitting, and 8% self-heal from guardian leap.) I'd give Guardian the advantage here because of that. As far as CCs go....

Force Stun vs Force Stasis (This is a draw, the skills are pretty much the same thing just different names/animations since Force Stasis is not channeled in 27/12/2)

Spinning Kick vs Hilt Strike(Spinning kick wins here. because the duration is 2 times less, yet the cooldown is 3 times less.)

Mind Maze vs Awe(Awe wins no contest, even though the duration is less than Mind Maze and has a cooldown, it's an AoE and a Guardian will probably use this more in a game than a Shadow will use Mind Maze.)

Force Push vs Force Pull(Force Push has a slight advantage, because as a tank if you're guarding people, or if you're almost dead and someone is attacking you, you'd rather push the target away from you than pull them towards you.)

Force Slow vs Freezing Force(The difference is not even close here. A 6 second single target slow and a 12 second cooldown vs a 9 second AoE slow with no cooldown. Seriously Freezing Force is ridiculous.)

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
01.29.2013 , 11:23 AM | #162
Quote: Originally Posted by Atramar View Post
I always wondered, how to buff mercs.
They have self heal (PT doesnt), now they have 30 m interrupt 12 s and mezz (pt have only 10 meter interrupt but on 8s cd)...
make abilities instant? already did, it's called powertech but...
hey, uncle Atramar, but PT is 4-10 meters and I want 30 m...
well, charlie, if u want mobile 30 meters range char, go sniper lethality...
but uncle Atramar, sniper has to many buttons and no 1 minute pve mezz and no self healz..
well charlie, tought, every class has pros and cons... you don't like how mercs/commandos work, roll other char.

Hey Uncle Atramar, Commando was my first class to 50, and I really like it but it is not viable in 50 PVP in any spec really. Oh wow they gave us a 30m interrupt?! Oh boy! That sure helps address my crippling lack of utility (LOLselfheals when you're in a DPS spec) or my inability to get any kind of sustained damage out under pressure in Assault or burst damage out under pressure in gunnery!

I get the cons of the class Uncle Atramar but I'm having a hard time seeing the pros. Maybe you should not spout ignorant tripe about a class whose issues you know nothing about? Thanks a ton Uncle Atramar!
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

Atramar's Avatar


Atramar
01.29.2013 , 11:30 AM | #163
Quote: Originally Posted by ArchangelLBC View Post
Hey Uncle Atramar, Commando was my first class to 50, and I really like it but it is not viable in 50 PVP in any spec really. Oh wow they gave us a 30m interrupt?! Oh boy! That sure helps address my crippling lack of utility (LOLselfheals when you're in a DPS spec) or my inability to get any kind of sustained damage out under pressure in Assault or burst damage out under pressure in gunnery!

I get the cons of the class Uncle Atramar but I'm having a hard time seeing the pros. Maybe you should not spout ignorant tripe about a class whose issues you know nothing about? Thanks a ton Uncle Atramar!

I love being called uncle
pros of commando/merc is easy to handle high damage for PVE.
self heals are lol, yes, but they are there.
I'm not saying mercs/commandos are good for pvp. but. if you don't see pros for a class in pvp, why keep playing it?
it's like 'i love stealth, but I play jugg, so give me stealth'
want interruptable turret class with lots of buttons? go sniper MM
want instant (but short range) abilities? go PT.
Tracer Legacy, The Red Eclipse.
Not reading colored text, it hurts my eyes. Sorry (unless it's a dev post)
L55:Sniper,Operative,Juggernaut,Assassin,Marauder, Powertech,Guardian,Commando,Scoundrel
to finish:Shadow(41),Sage(53),Merc(39). 29.07.2013

Technohic's Avatar


Technohic
01.29.2013 , 12:10 PM | #164
So; have we found out which spec is the awesome OP spec? I need to respec my assassin from a classic 31/10/0 build.

MeatTender's Avatar


MeatTender
01.29.2013 , 12:13 PM | #165
We need more necro threads! Specifically on mercs/mandos just because in an entire year the class hasn't been buffed.

Technohic's Avatar


Technohic
01.29.2013 , 12:17 PM | #166
Quote: Originally Posted by MeatTender View Post
We need more necro threads! Specifically on mercs/mandos just because in an entire year the class hasn't been buffed.
What does that have to do with this thread?

MeatTender's Avatar


MeatTender
01.29.2013 , 12:18 PM | #167
.....

cycao's Avatar


cycao
01.29.2013 , 12:19 PM | #168
Quote: Originally Posted by MeatTender View Post
The fact that this thread is almost a year old and it got bumped makes it a necro thread!
*facepalm*

check the date.

Technohic's Avatar


Technohic
01.29.2013 , 12:27 PM | #169
LMAO We just witnessed the rare opposite of necro-trolling. Congrats OP.

CharterMonkKent's Avatar


CharterMonkKent
01.29.2013 , 12:31 PM | #170
Quote: Originally Posted by NamikazeNaruto View Post
Tbh, I almost wonder how a Shadow's 22/17/2 http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/S...762l2-c78cif-c measures up to a Guardian's 27/12/2 http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/g...7j0ke8-20d2f-2 in terms of survivability and utility... let's compare


Defensive Cooldowns

22/17/2(Shadow)
-Blackout/Shadow's Respite(A shadow in 22/17/2 can get Shadow's Respite every 45 seconds, and it lasts for 6 seconds.
-Resilience(Has a 1 minute cooldown and grants you 5 seconds of CC immunity to all CCs that are force or tech based. Every time you shield, deflect, or parry an attack, the cooldown of Resilience is lowered 1 second, cannot proc more than once a second.)
-Deflection(Increases your ranged and melee defense by 50% for 12 seconds.)
-Kinetic Ward(increases your shield chance against melee and ranged attacks by 15% for 20 seconds. The amount of damage you absorb will depend on your absorption rating. Has a 12 second cooldown.)
-Force Cloak(Takes you out of combat. In 22/17/2 spec, you can be healed while you're in force cloak.)
-Warzone medpacs can be used more than once per fight because Force Cloak will refresh the medpac.


27/12/2(Guardian)
-Warding Call(Reduces all damage taken by 40% for 10 seconds. Has a 3 minute cooldown.)
-Focused Defense(Spends 1 focus to heal you for 3% of your health as long as you're taking damage. Lasts for 10 seconds. Cannot occur more than once per second. Can be used while stunned. Has a 45 second cooldown.)
-Saber Ward(Increases melee and ranged defense by 50% and reduces damage from force and tech attacks by 25%. Lasts 12 seconds. Has a 3 minute cooldown.)
-Enure(Increases your maximum health by 30% for 15 seconds. If you're low health and use this with a warzone medpac, you'll usually be healed back to near full health. Has a 1 minute 30 second cooldown.)



Passive Defenses/Talents

22/17/2(Shadow)
-Fade(Reduces area of effect damage by 30%[passive]. Also reduces the cooldown of blackout by 15 seconds, and Force Cloak by 30 seconds.)
-Celerity(Reduces the cooldown of your interrupt by 2 seconds, reduces the cooldown of your CC breaker by 30 seconds, and reduces the cooldown of force speed by 5 seconds.)
-Force Speed breaks roots
-Jedi Resistance(reduces all damage taken by 2%[passive])
-Mental Fortitude(increases endurance by 3%[passive])
-Impact Control(Increases shield absorption by 4%. In addition Combat Readiness heals you for 10% of your health.)


27/12/2(Guardian)
-Guard Stance(Increases melee and ranged defenses by 6% while in Soresu Form[passive])
-Blade Barricade(Riposte increases melee and ranged defense by 3% for 12 seconds.)
-Blade Barrier(Using Blade Storm activates Blade Barrier, which absorbs a moderate amount of damage for 10 seconds.)
-Sheld Specialization(Increases shield chance by 4%[passive])
-Inner Peace(Increases the duration of Enure by 4 seconds, and increases your elemental and internal damage reduction by 4%)
-Single Saber Mastery(Increases melee and ranged defense by 3% while in Soresu Form)
-Unremitting(Force Leap activates unremitting, which gives you 20% reduced damage taken and CC immunity for 4 seconds.)
-If you have the 2 piece Vindicator set bonus, using Guardian Leap heals you for 8% of your total health. It has a 20 second cooldown.


Crowd Control Abilities(CCs)/Utility


22/17/2(Shadow)
-Force Pull(pulls an enemy target to you. Has a 45 second cooldown. 10-30m range.)
-Force Stun(stuns the target for 4 seconds. 1 minute cooldown. 10m range.)
-Spinning Kick(Stuns the target for 2 seconds. 20 second cooldown. 4m range.)
-Mind Maze(Mezzes the target for 8 seconds. Only usable from stealth. No cooldown. 10m range)
-Force Wave(Knocks back all enemies in front of you. 20 second cooldown. 15m range)
-Force Slow(Slows target's movement speed by 50% for 6 seconds. 12 second cooldown. 10m range, 15m range with the stalker 2 set.)
-Mind Snap(Interrupts target's current action for 4 seconds. 10 second cooldown. 10m range.)


27/12/2(Guardian)
-Force Push(pushes a target away from you and knocks him down for 2 seconds. Also finishes the cooldown on your Force Leap. Has a 45 second cooldown. 10m range)
-Force Stasis(Stuns the target for 4 seconds. Has a 1 minute cooldown. 10m range.)
-Hilt Strike(Stuns the target for 4 seconds. Has a 1 minute cooldown. 4m range.)
-Awe(Mezzes all enemies for 6 seconds in an AoE. Has a 1 minute cooldown. 10m range)
-Force Leap(Leaps to a target and roots them for 3 seconds. Has a 15 second cooldown. 10-30m range.)
-Freezing Force(Reduces the movement speed of enemies in an AoE by 50% for 9 seconds. 10m range. Has no cooldown... in fact it operates on half a global cooldown.)


Comparison/Analysis
-Blackout/Shadow's Respite vs Warding Call(Blackout/Shadow's Respite has a slight advantage here because the cooldown is 4 times less than the cooldown of Warding Call.)

-Resilience vs Unremitting(Resilience has a slight edge here because it has the ability to block ALL force/tech attacks that come at you, as well as cleansing DoTs off yourself, as well as making you immune to all CC that is force/tech based. Unremitting can be used more often, but it only makes you CC immune and reduces the damage by 20%, not 100%.)

-Deflection vs Saber Ward(Saber Ward has a slight edge here because of the 25% added tech/force damage reduction. The only reason I say slight edge is because the cooldown on Deflection is 33% shorter than Saber Ward's cooldown.)

-Kinetic Ward vs Focused Defense(I would give Focused Defense the victory here, as endurance/health is the most important stat besides expertise. I'd rather have something that is capable of healing me for up to 30% over 10 seconds than having something that increases my shield chance by 15%. Still, kinetic ward is pretty much a permanent buff as the cooldown is over a lot of times before your 8 charges of Kinetic Ward are taken off.)

-Force Cloak/Warzone Medpac Refresh vs Enure/Warzone Medpac(I'd give Enure a slight victory here. The fact that with Enure and a warzone medpac you can pretty much go from low health to full health is pretty powerful. Though if you're in a game that the fighting is going on nonstop, it'd be better if you were able to refresh your medpac with Force Cloak. Even so, without a medpac, if you use Enure, as long as you have a good healer they can probably heal you back up.)

If we compared the Shadow passive damage reduction skills 22/17/2 to the passive Guardian damage reduction skills in 27/12/2, this is what we get.

-Shadow(32% AoE damage reduction, 4% increased shield absorption, 2% reduced damage, 3% increased endurance, 9% increased elemental and internal damage reduction, 1 minute 30 second CC breaker)
vs
-Guardian(9% melee and ranged defense, 4% increased shield chance, 4% increased elemental and internal damage reduction, 2 minute CC breaker.)

If we were going by this alone, I'd give Shadow the advantage here. However, Guardians get a lot of talents that increases their defenses passively for a time when doing certain moves(Blade Barrier, Blade Barracade, Unremitting, and 8% self-heal from guardian leap.) I'd give Guardian the advantage here because of that. As far as CCs go....

Force Stun vs Force Stasis (This is a draw, the skills are pretty much the same thing just different names/animations since Force Stasis is not channeled in 27/12/2)

Spinning Kick vs Hilt Strike(Spinning kick wins here. because the duration is 2 times less, yet the cooldown is 3 times less.)

Mind Maze vs Awe(Awe wins no contest, even though the duration is less than Mind Maze and has a cooldown, it's an AoE and a Guardian will probably use this more in a game than a Shadow will use Mind Maze.)

Force Push vs Force Pull(Force Push has a slight advantage, because as a tank if you're guarding people, or if you're almost dead and someone is attacking you, you'd rather push the target away from you than pull them towards you.)

Force Slow vs Freezing Force(The difference is not even close here. A 6 second single target slow and a 12 second cooldown vs a 9 second AoE slow with no cooldown. Seriously Freezing Force is ridiculous.)
Interesting to compare using that jugg/guard build. I personally think it's not a very effective build. Hilt strike / back hand adds too much resolve so it should be dropped (you pretty much explained why it's not great).

Also, anyone pvp tanking with a jugg/guard should be getting deafening defense / commanding awe. 4% constant damage reduction with an additional 15% when enraged / focused defense is activated (every 35 seconds). It also lowers the cooldown on the AOE mezz. Kind of like shadow's respite but it lasts longer, has a constant reduced damage %, heals you and gives you more AOE mezz. That single skill on the tree is make or break for jugg tanking (in my opinion). I also think it makes jugg/guardians the best pvp tanks. AND I also think it's crazy that it's 5th tier in a dps tree....

I may have missed it up there but I think you forgot intercede / guardian leap. Which pretty much gives a guard / jugg the ability to stack two AOE taunts (when used correctly). Most notably when saving someone under focus fire. This is a stand out for me.

A stand out for me on my shadow is using resilience + force cloak to buy more time, even when vastly outnumbered.

Also I don't think your comparison of resilience vs unremitting is completely accurate. Unremitting is pretty easy, flat 20% damage reduction and CC immunity for 4 seconds. Resilience only effects force/tech, it adds 100% resistance to these attacks, not immunity (yea in SWTOR they managed to create a difference between 100% resistance and immunity). Juggs cannot be hit with leg shot/slows/etc after leap, shadows can be stopped, shut down or killed many ways with resilience up.

I know I feel more tanky/useful when I'm tanking on my jugg. I can soak up more dps and keep people alive longer. That and my shadow can't throw people over walls in civil war

As to the OP. More nerfs, really? Shadow/sins aren't prime DPS in this game, they have their nitch (which almost always requires hybrid spec), let them fill it.
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