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Guarding the Healers


Zamppa's Avatar


Zamppa
01.22.2013 , 01:18 AM | #101
Quote: Originally Posted by Ailie View Post
Really? My god if a tank can't manage more than one mob they must be pretty lame.

Sorry but it's true. Even if you can't CC there is more than enough abilities across all of the classes in this game to ensure the tank can maintain aggro.

Guard on DPS, ALWAYS

As for damage, someone has to take it. If you guard the healer the DPS you just took it off will now get that extra 5% (woooooh big damage!)
I play Black Hole geared marauder as my main and do FPs on a regular basis with group finder which usually pops me into a group with a melee tank around rakata gear and a another ranged dps. I still steal a lot of aggro from the tanks because of my rather high end gear and big dps. I don't say it's completely wrong to guard the healer but if the healer is already decently geared(columi level or around that) then I would like to get the guard because that makes the run so much more easy as I don't have to use my defensive CDs so much and tune down my DPS but I can only concentrate on the thing I do best, the awesome dpsing. It's so much more easy for me and the healer in the bosses that have multiple enemies(Boarding Party, Kaon...) when I have the guard so the healer does not need to heal me so much even though I tend to steal the aggro every now and then even with the guard, just because my dps is so high.
"What can you say - I'm a talented individual"
- Revan to Bastila on Taris

sumuser's Avatar


sumuser
01.22.2013 , 07:02 AM | #102
In addition to my PT tank, I also play as a marauder (Annihilation). The only people who pull aggro off my tank are marauders and when I play my marauder I frequently pull aggro off tanks (both pugs and guild mates).

Basically, I keep my eye on any maras over 20k health and I am always ready to throw up defensive CDs when I play my marauder. The only time I notice other classes rip aggro from me is when they either throw out taunts or dump aoes over the mob I'm holding (will usually shake one or two guys lose).
Jedi Covenant
Apotheosis | lvl 50 | Bounty Hunter
Utnapishtim | lvl 50 | Sith Warrior

Danqypoo's Avatar


Danqypoo
01.22.2013 , 09:39 AM | #103
Some of these discussions among higher level players astonish me.

I'll tell you something. I started playing this game a couple of weeks ago. I just reached Level 29 yesterday on my Marauder and this is my first post.

I know to burn down the easier mobs before taking on the bosses through my leveling missions. How do higher level players get to 50 without knowing this? Amazing.
Apprentice Danqypoo
Sith Marauder
Jedi Covenant

Qvasar's Avatar


Qvasar
01.22.2013 , 10:14 AM | #104
Quote: Originally Posted by Danqypoo View Post
I know to burn down the easier mobs before taking on the bosses through my leveling missions. How do higher level players get to 50 without knowing this? Amazing.
If you play long enough you will see the most astonishing things, and when you think you've seen it all... you will see something that will prove you wrong. I could spend the entire day listing dumb things people say and do at level 50.

Danqypoo's Avatar


Danqypoo
01.22.2013 , 01:05 PM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by Qvasar View Post
If you play long enough you will see the most astonishing things, and when you think you've seen it all... you will see something that will prove you wrong. I could spend the entire day listing dumb things people say and do at level 50.
Hah. I have wanted to do the Mandalorian Raiders flashpoint but this stuff sort of has me wondering if it's worth it, assuming that people are even dumber at level 25-30.

Edit: I realized now that after last night I passed the level range for that flashpoint. Oh well.
Apprentice Danqypoo
Sith Marauder
Jedi Covenant

thomasbaxter's Avatar


thomasbaxter
01.22.2013 , 04:48 PM | #106
The worst part is you'll get to level 50 and the players are just as clueless but because they've reached that level they think they're the shizz lol.

The things that really grind on me just now constantly happen:

1) Idiots trying to force push/overload shielded droids in 'Collicoid War Game'. Instead of admitting they're wrong they scoff 'nah I can do it' as they look like a *** getting slammed over the edge

2) Idiots ignoring your 'watch out for the shockwaves' when fighting guns in cademimu or aforementioned droids only to fly over the edge seconds later. Athiss dino too....

3) Those that just won't get out of the damn fire/acid as their health plummets before blaming the healer (Cademimu boss, ATHISS final boss - WORST, Collicoid Final Boss - WORST, matriarch on foundry etc)

4) The ones who won't hide from the bosses in MP when they're obvious snipers.

5) Not understanding that healers can't heal if you're out of sight or reach. Worst scenarios are the mid boss in MP when the idiots all hide behind crates and keep peeking out and circling and dancing around the blocks and moan that u aren't healing them as u frantically run about trying to get them in view. Heals take a few seconds guys. Another head scratcher is the end boss in directive 7. 2 of the team fight one turret while one idiot goes off to take the other one on himself so u can only heal half the group at one time....

6) Idiots who don't listen and when running from Athiss final boss, Xander in cademimu etc keep running out of the main area and the boss resets its health.

As you can tell I'm mainly a healer lol grrr

Monoth's Avatar


Monoth
01.23.2013 , 02:59 PM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by Ailie View Post
Really? My god if a tank can't manage more than one mob they must be pretty lame.

Sorry but it's true. Even if you can't CC there is more than enough abilities across all of the classes in this game to ensure the tank can maintain aggro.

Guard on DPS, ALWAYS

As for damage, someone has to take it. If you guard the healer the DPS you just took it off will now get that extra 5% (woooooh big damage!)
Really? My god if a dps can't kill a trash mob he pulls before it kills him then that DPS is pretty lame....

I play a healer quite a bit lately and I do notice a huge difference aggro wise being guarded and not being guarded... If the DPS is geared so highly that he pulls the trash mob off a tank then he shold be able to quickly kill that trash mob given the gear he has..

I have a gunslinger that has all Dread Guard Gear except for the helmet and chest, and I have no issues killing trash mobs fast If I pull them off a tank....

The whole argument is rather moot anyways as most DPS will target the trash mobs the Tank's are not even on... So your going to pull aggro regardless if your guarded or not.... Ill say it for the 100th Time, the only time a DPS needs to be guarded is during a BOSS fight.... If the DPS needs to be guarded during trash pulls then he just sucks as a DPS'er
F2P is like driving on a long stretch of highway with toll booths every 1/2 mile

Banegio's Avatar


Banegio
01.23.2013 , 04:26 PM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by Danqypoo View Post
Hah. I have wanted to do the Mandalorian Raiders flashpoint but this stuff sort of has me wondering if it's worth it, assuming that people are even dumber at level 25-30.

Edit: I realized now that after last night I passed the level range for that flashpoint. Oh well.
Sometime playing in an inexperienced group will just add to the fun. You get used to the common beginner's mistakes and use the tools you have at your disposal to compensate them.

Highly suggesting you do those fps that have no hardmode while you are at the appropriate levels. Mandalorian Raiders was one of my favourite fp before the nerf (yep it was long time ago).

All the lowbie fps are still very fun and challenging. I actually have problem now that most people queue them over-level and make the encounters boring.

sripakdee's Avatar


sripakdee
01.23.2013 , 04:29 PM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by Monoth View Post
Really? My god if a dps can't kill a trash mob he pulls before it kills him then that DPS is pretty lame....

I play a healer quite a bit lately and I do notice a huge difference aggro wise being guarded and not being guarded... If the DPS is geared so highly that he pulls the trash mob off a tank then he shold be able to quickly kill that trash mob given the gear he has..

I have a gunslinger that has all Dread Guard Gear except for the helmet and chest, and I have no issues killing trash mobs fast If I pull them off a tank....

The whole argument is rather moot anyways as most DPS will target the trash mobs the Tank's are not even on... So your going to pull aggro regardless if your guarded or not.... Ill say it for the 100th Time, the only time a DPS needs to be guarded is during a BOSS fight.... If the DPS needs to be guarded during trash pulls then he just sucks as a DPS'er
I disagree. Yes, as a full dread guard slinger, if you pull something, you will most likely kill it before it reach you. problem is still the fact you pull it in the first place. As a healer, the more the tank tanks instead of dps. the happier i am. As a DPS, the more the tanks tank instead of me. the happier i am (cos lets face it, i am quite low on the healing prio list when **** hits the fan). As a tank, the more i tank instead of others, the happier i am, since im actually doing my job. While some say that dps pull mainly due to them attacking other targets than the target the tank is tanking, thats their problem. I do that myself, for 2 reasons, either The tank is not doing his job, and **** hit the healer, or i use an aoe. And in regards to aoe. I know that it's dangerous to use em in combat since im giving the tank more to do, but lets face it, its an aoe attack for a reason, if i use it recklessly, its my problem, if i get aggro for using them when im supposed to, its the tanks. You would say a guard helps here? Guess again. If the tanks do the pull as is custom, they will gain initial aggro, if they follow up on that , happy days. If they don't any form of guard wont help. guard or not, **** will still go for the healer, and some dps have the foresight to compensate by attacking the stuff hitting the healer.
same thing with the taunt multiplier, 130% (not sure bout the exact number) that the taunt multiply with help heaps when tanking. but keep in mind, 130% of nothing is still nothing.

However, if we take bossfights in consideration then the guard should always go to the one most likely to pull of the tank , and it aint gonna be the healer. There is only 1 time ive ever tanked a boss as a healer. that was when me and the tank messed about and intentionally had me tank it (that fact that the dpser's didnt pull off me is nothing short of tragic, but that is another story). the times i've seen **** tanks lose aggro and not get it back however are quite numerous. There are times where ive seen people wait for ages before engaging a boss and still rip aggro off the tank, and while a good geared dps most likely wont have any issues surviving that if they have a healer who knows what they are doing, fact of the matter is still this: id much prefer to heal the tank over the dps, for the tank take less dmg.

For all you tanks out there who complain about dpsers ripping aggro off you. Trust me when i say, you can successfully tank almost any mob, regardless of your current gear level, against any type of dps, regardless of how high it is, if you know what you are doing, ie if you guard the dps that might pull off you, if your gear is bad compared to theirs, weave taunts into your rotation (though that helps for all tanks).

In short, read up on how threat in this game works (this can be said to all those who havent) for "having tanked for x years in WoW" really is the WORST argument ever
Guildmaster of Exit Area @ The Red Eclipse

Brittaany_Banks's Avatar


Brittaany_Banks
01.23.2013 , 04:42 PM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by Qvasar View Post
Please stop this nonsense.

I play a combat sentinel with BiS gear and I end up tanking 9/10 flashpoints and operations I join via group finder because tanks actively refuse to put their guard on me. I have stopped bothering trying to explain on a daily basis why they should do this and just do my best to "keep aggro" so they realize they are making a mistake.

For those who don't know how threat is calculated:
  • An attack has a 1.0x modifier on damage to threat.
  • A heal has a 0.5x modifier on heal to threat.
  • Tanking stance gives a 2.0x modifier on damage to threat.

This means a healer has to do 2x more healing than the damage done by a damage dealer (DD) in order to acctualy "pull aggro". If for example a DD is doing 1500DPS, the healer would have to do 3000HPS...

Also for those advocating the healer must have a guard because any adds will target him/her, guarding doesn't in any way prevent this from happening When adds spawn their "threat table" is empty and as soon as the healer casts a heal on anybody the threat generated from that heal is split amongs all the enemies currently engaged. Unless the adds are taunted or attacked they will go for the healer, regardless of guard.

So, if it makes no sense guarding the healer who is the guard for? Simple, the best damage dealer in the group.

Using my previous example of a DD doing 1500DPS, the tank would have to do more than 750DPS in order to "keep aggro" (disregarding "high threat" abilities and taunts).

Now ask yourselves what makes more sense:
  • A tank doing less than 750DPS - guard the best damage dealer in the group.
  • A healer doing more than 3000HPS - guard the healer.

Amusing fact: I once had a tank tell me to "stop taunting"... on a sentinel...

TL;DR
Learn about how threat is calculated - Tanking: A Primer; stop guarding the healers; guard the best damage dealer in group; AoE taunt adds.
Where are you getting these threat generation numbers from? I'm not saying you are wrong I'd just like to know where this formula is coming from.
I don't care who you are. I don't care if you are male, or female, black, or white, gay, or straight, religious, or non-religious, old or young. I care about 3 things. Can you tank properly? Can you DPS properly? Can you heal properly?