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Suggested Mercenary/Commando Changes for 1.6

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Commando / Mercenary
Suggested Mercenary/Commando Changes for 1.6

T-Assassin's Avatar


T-Assassin
01.11.2013 , 05:25 PM | #121
Quote: Originally Posted by Okamakiri View Post
I've heard enough.
have ya? see above.

"Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur."
"Today is a good day for someone else to die." -

T-Assassin's Avatar


T-Assassin
01.11.2013 , 05:28 PM | #122
Quote: Originally Posted by Okamakiri View Post
- posts a 1675 DPS VG parse on WH, while top parse is 2425 DPS by a Sniper. Sniper/GS is not a very mobile class, yet they parse as top DPS on most fights. Btw, 3/5 of the Top5 DPS on 8man HM Op IX are Mercs. REALLY? those are 2 fights where u can treat it like it is a training dummy...lol. *EDIT500* and you should know OS > DFA...the mechanics of that fight are VERY sniper/GS friendly

- talks about parses from SMs and FPs, while top players are posting logs from HM and NiM. see my previous EVIDENCE ^^^...oh, and i'm in 61's...and been raiding for about a whole 2 weeks on VG. 3 HM's i believe...MAYBE 4.

- uses WH as an example where DPS uptime gives PT/VG advantage, meanwhile Merc can sit planted in the center of the room without moving an inch for the entire fight and hit the boss and every add that pops up.

I've heard enough.
you can lead a horse to water...

Merc/Commando account for about 2%...MAYBE 5% of the total top 50's in HM...

i've heard enough, too.

*EDIT* and you still have not acknowledged you are incorrect in your reading of kill/death parses.

*EDIT2* actually, 8% top 50's...take away OP9 and Keph 5.5%. to be precise. how many of those are Pyrotech Merc versus PT/VG pyro/assault.

just saying...some classes/specs need love...there's the proof, from a Merc/pyro pov.
"Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur."
"Today is a good day for someone else to die." -

T-Assassin's Avatar


T-Assassin
01.11.2013 , 11:21 PM | #123
Quote: Originally Posted by Okamakiri View Post
I've heard enough.
kinda figured you would have nothing to say after evidence and facts were brought into the discussion....
"Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur."
"Today is a good day for someone else to die." -

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
01.12.2013 , 08:35 PM | #124
why are you even arguing about how PvE metrics affect PvP performance?

bottom line is that they have no affect on PvP performace. PvP is 100% dynamic, PvE is 100% static. PvE is great for representing a DPS class's ability to do damage completely unimpeded. but in PvP, that is almost never the case.

Aewu's Avatar


Aewu
01.13.2013 , 05:37 PM | #125
THIS MUST BE DONE. I suffer so much.

T-Assassin's Avatar


T-Assassin
01.13.2013 , 05:43 PM | #126
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
why are you even arguing about how PvE metrics affect PvP performance?

bottom line is that they have no affect on PvP performace. PvP is 100% dynamic, PvE is 100% static. PvE is great for representing a DPS class's ability to do damage completely unimpeded. but in PvP, that is almost never the case.
if you cannot make the connection to how the class plays in similar situations, in both PvE and PvP environments, and how the ability to instant cast, be interrupted, etc. effects DPS, (everything i have stated) then you're being ignorant.

the connection can easily be made. or you can choose to remain closed-minded.

i'm trying to make a solid comparison of the 2 classes, in all enviornments, and how PT/VG outperforms them and why.

or, i can make up my Marc wishlist and hope all of these great ideas will get the time and effort spent to be put in the game and finally fix the class.

but, i understand i don't live in fantasy land.
"Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur."
"Today is a good day for someone else to die." -

Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
01.14.2013 , 02:58 AM | #127
Quote: Originally Posted by Okamakiri View Post
Nonsense. Spoken like a truly ignorant PVPer who only takes part in one aspect of the game. My opinion on the other hand comes from a decade of MMO experience in both PVP and PVE (SWTOR since beta, rank 14 and gladiator in WoW, WAR, AoC, etc.). If you actually READ my entire post you'd see that I acknowledge the fact that Mercs need a buff in their ABILITY to DPS in PVP, not the DPS itself.
Now you are simply word smithing in an attempt to defend ignorant statements you made which are untenable. If you had read my post, you'd have understood that even in low pressure situations, merc dps is far behind that of other dps subclasses. Your position that "raw' damage output across classes must be the same basically equates to claiming that the devs must anchor class balance first and foremost to damage output vs. training dummies - a prerequisite that DOOMS any functional attempt to achieve class balance. For if that is what damage equivalency is based upon, you would need to make all classes equally affected by interrupts, pushbacks, stuns and cc's in order to maintain that level of equivalence in wz and ops. And uniform equivalence is BORING. Why even have different classes at that stage?

Quote: Originally Posted by Okamakiri View Post
Bottom line is, you cannot just buff raw damage, improving mobility, defenses and ability to do unhindered damage is what's needed.
Sure you can. Just improve the bonuses on 4 piece pvp gear. Done.

Look, you can also attempt to fix merc dps by improving damage output while under pressure. But you don't seem to understand just how invulnerable to stun/pushback/cc/interrupt Merc dps must be made in order to get their real world dps on par with other subclasses. That stuff would literally need to bounce off the Merc 100% of the time in order to make up the 50% damage gap that current exists. Even then it probably wouldn't bridge the gap. And making those sorts of changes just wrecks the sub-50 game where Merc dps is already OP because it is too easy to pilot.

Quote: Originally Posted by Okamakiri View Post
Your talk of "flimsiness" of the Merc class is irrelevant, since even if Merc had 90% dmg reduction at all times, it would do nothing to improve their DPS when they have constant interrupts on them.
It isn't irrelevant unless you want all classes to be identical. Which does seem to be where you are pointing. My position is quite the opposite. IF Merc had massive damage reduction capabilities then the class could be viable even if it had subpar damage output. Or you could have Merc dps do more damage than other dps, but flimsier. But you MUST have a relative advantage vs. other dps classes. Right now that does not exist.

The alternative design philosophy which you seem to hold is to make everything the same. Same "raw" (training dummy) damage output. Same resistance to countermeasures in order to generate the same real world dps. It's boring. Nor in fact would it even work. Training dummy dps and even pve boss fight dps is biased towards single target dps. Forcing damage equivalence in this environments will always leave the AoE dps classes OP for both pve and pvp.

T-Assassin's Avatar


T-Assassin
01.14.2013 , 03:00 PM | #128
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
Now you are simply word smithing in an attempt to defend ignorant statements you made which are untenable. If you had read my post, you'd have understood that even in low pressure situations, merc dps is far behind that of other dps subclasses. Your position that "raw' damage output across classes must be the same basically equates to claiming that the devs must anchor class balance first and foremost to damage output vs. training dummies - a prerequisite that DOOMS any functional attempt to achieve class balance. For if that is what damage equivalency is based upon, you would need to make all classes equally affected by interrupts, pushbacks, stuns and cc's in order to maintain that level of equivalence in wz and ops. And uniform equivalence is BORING. Why even have different classes at that stage?



Sure you can. Just improve the bonuses on 4 piece pvp gear. Done.

Look, you can also attempt to fix merc dps by improving damage output while under pressure. But you don't seem to understand just how invulnerable to stun/pushback/cc/interrupt Merc dps must be made in order to get their real world dps on par with other subclasses. That stuff would literally need to bounce off the Merc 100% of the time in order to make up the 50% damage gap that current exists. Even then it probably wouldn't bridge the gap. And making those sorts of changes just wrecks the sub-50 game where Merc dps is already OP because it is too easy to pilot.



It isn't irrelevant unless you want all classes to be identical. Which does seem to be where you are pointing. My position is quite the opposite. IF Merc had massive damage reduction capabilities then the class could be viable even if it had subpar damage output. Or you could have Merc dps do more damage than other dps, but flimsier. But you MUST have a relative advantage vs. other dps classes. Right now that does not exist.

The alternative design philosophy which you seem to hold is to make everything the same. Same "raw" (training dummy) damage output. Same resistance to countermeasures in order to generate the same real world dps. It's boring. Nor in fact would it even work. Training dummy dps and even pve boss fight dps is biased towards single target dps. Forcing damage equivalence in this environments will always leave the AoE dps classes OP for both pve and pvp.
^^^ word! good post.

the one item i "disagree" with, even tho i actually agree, is your stance/view on character variation.

while i would love to see Mercs be a class of their own and be unique, i just don't see BW putting in the time to code such things. they cannot even fix bugs that have been here for months, let alone lag issues, etc.

my crusade of VG/assault vs. Merc/pyro in terms of DPS in both PvP and PvE environments, how it is significantly different, and how casting is the bane of DPS'ing, is only to point out they do not have to reinvent the wheel to get Mercenary on par with a class that is performing nicely.

while it may be boring and not quite unique, i will gladly take that over a "broken" class that cannot compete in PvE or PvP in terms of DPS.

i'm more realistic than optomistic, in terms of what can or will be done to improve the Merc class. i don't see them using any of the well thought out ideas in these forums. and, if you've played MMO's for any amount of time, you would know this to be the norm. (not listening to the actual player base)
"Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur."
"Today is a good day for someone else to die." -

dcgregorya's Avatar


dcgregorya
01.19.2013 , 03:23 AM | #129
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
45s cooldown? not sure if serious.

Mercs would be *required* to be within melee range to get the effect of Run and Gun. which means they are coming under attack from at least one, possibly multiple melee opponents. the knock-back effect would only be available to the Arsenal spec which, even with all the changes i suggested, would be a sub-par PvP spec to Pyrotech.



do you not play a merc? while i appreciate your opinion, if you have not played a Merc at high-level end game PvP, you do not really understand what the problems with the class are. its performance against bad pugs is irrelevant; that is not how you balance a game. you balance a game based on the highest level of play, where the balance is actually important and highly visible.

i have to play at an obnoxiously high skill level in order to compete with even bad FOTM players.

and ive said this multiple times: damage output does not suddenly magnify when casted abilities activate instantly. the difference is Merc would actually be able to use those abilities when they are having lightsabers inserted into their rectum.
I'm sorry but there's no way that having all that on a 9 second CD wouldn't be OP. You seem to forget you can also mez people, which by itself gives you free heals. Plus hard stun. No melee in the game would be able to beat a decent merc/commando - ever - under any circumstances. Right now we can beat a melee with proper timing/usage of CC & heals - this would just make it a joke. I think mercs could use *some* love but lets be realistic. Just consider that you could heal 3x back to back with no cooldown...that by itself would be OP...every time you randomly were near someone enough to use that skill.

Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
01.19.2013 , 03:54 AM | #130
Quote: Originally Posted by dcgregorya View Post
Right now we can beat a melee with proper timing/usage of CC & heals
No you can't. Not unless the melee is incompetent. When I am on my melee and I attack a Merc/Commando, they always die. Always. Well OK, that is a slight exaggeration. But excepting for the sort of cases where the melee is at half health and Merc/Commando is at full health, or the melee has all his abilities on CD, etc. the Merc/Commando should never beat the melee.

Now I am not a big fan of the "Run & Gun" suggestion since it helps the Merc Pyro not at all. But I was rather taken aback by your claim that the Merc could use that ability to heal 3 times in a row as a trump card. I mean seriously? Who cares if a Merc dps casts 3 heals? You don't think the damage output of a Carnage Mara or Rage Smash Monkey in 9 seconds is well over the healing from 3 Rapid Scans? A reasonable melee dps is more than capable of killing a Merc healer. He's going to make mincemeat out of a Merc dps who tries to be an ersatz healer.