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Guarding the Healers


Ms_Sunlight's Avatar


Ms_Sunlight
01.17.2013 , 09:59 AM | #21
5% damage reduction for nothing is still 5% damage reduction. Why not give it to the healer if they're squishy? Personally, I use guard primarily for threat management but if gear levels indicate that's unlikely to be a problem (particularly if I'm running with ranged DPS) I put it on whoever looks like they could use it most. It can always be switched on the fly.

People who always guard the healer or healers who demand guard are idiots, but guarding the healer is not always wrong.
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Shwarzchild's Avatar


Shwarzchild
01.17.2013 , 11:07 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by LogicalPremise View Post
As a healer, the only time I expect to be guarded is when we have consistently garbage DPS who run around aggroing everything and then dying and I get swarmed by trash. The rest of the time, any competent healer has enough (or should have enough) tools to deal with a single trash pack (aggro wipe, bubble, self heal, or just asking for one of the DPS to get the guy off / burn him down) to avoid needing guard.

90% of the time I'm out of guard range anyway, and so it does no good. So why do healers ask for guard?

Because, shock, some healers are bads. They fail to drop HoT's and bubbles at the correct time, fail to pre-hot before big hits, and try to half-*** DPS and end up aggroing trash onto themselves, then scream the tank sucks. Yet people put up with it because of queue times. Ugh.

Tanks should not be guarding healers except in a handful of specific , limited situations.

This. Absolutely this. As a healer I don't need to be guarded unless I'm getting pounded, which is rare, and I have HoTs, shields, and a threat reduction to play with along with the extra unwritten "kite" ability. to deal with incoming damage.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.17.2013 , 11:25 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Qvasar View Post
A tank doing less than 750DPS - guard the best damage dealer in the group.
Most tanks, unless they're in absolute BiS and know their rotations *exceptionally* well aren't going to be dealing 750 DPS, especially not Guardians. You only arrived at this arbitrarily high number because you actually did most of your math wrong.

First off, it should be noted that the high threat multiplier is multiplicative: it generates 50% more threat *before* the tank stance doubling occurs. Ergo, a high threat ability generates 300% threat and all of the other abilities generate 200% threat. In addition, every tank has some form of high threat ability: the Ion Cell DoT for VGs, Guardian Slash for Guardians, and Slow Time and Force Breach for Shadows.

Secondly, it's also not required to maintain an exact doubling of threat in order to maintain aggro. For a *vast* majority of cases it requires 130% of given threat to pull threat because the "ranged" range for threat purposes is measured as 4m from the center of the target whereas the attack melee/range range is measured as distance from the outside edge of the target's model. As such, a majority of melee DPS actually end up DPSing within the "ranged" threat radius and require 130% of current target's threat to pull.

As such, in order to pull maintain threat going up against a target generating 1800 DPS/TPS, a tank needs only generate 1385 TPS without ever having to taunt (which is ludicrously simple even in bad gear).

Quote:
A healer doing more than 3000HPS - guard the healer.
It's been mentioned already, but I think it bears repeating, you're only correct in this sense if and when you're dealing with a single enemy NPC. In all other situations, it would require substantial geometric growth of HPS in order to threaten to pull aggro because healing threat is diluted by the number of targets currently in combat (and this is completely ignoring the fact that all of the healers have and should take the talents that reduce their threat by either 15% for Sages or 10% for Commando Scoundrel, meaning that even more HPS is required): with 2 NPCs in combat and a tank generating 1500 raw TPS (1950 TPS required to pull), a healer would have to generate 8667 HPS (1950 / .9 / .5 * 2), 3 targets would require 13000, etc. Even with a single target, the HPS is so high as to be functionally impossible to reach (4333 HPS).

As such, the only times that a healer even stands the *remotest* chance of having aggro are at the very beginning when a target has taken no damage whatsoever and any degree of threat reduction will serve absolutely no purpose whatsoever or at the extreme end of a fight wherein a target that has been lightly brushed by a single attack and has been ignored otherwise for an extended period of time *finally* has enough threat gained via diluted healing threat to pull aggro wherein the threat reduction *will* actually lengthen the period of time before this occurs (keep in mind, a healer generating 1000 HPS would take 9 seconds to pull threat on a target hit for 1500 threat once with 3 other NPCs in combat; more enemies, more damage, or less healing required are all going to push that number even higher; Guard would simply increase that to 12 seconds). In both of these cases, the threat pulling is predicated upon both of the DPS and the tank ignoring a target for an extended period of time, which just really isn't going to happen unless the group is absolutely *terrible*.

The only real benefit that a healer gets is the 5% damage reduction, which isn't even additive DR (additive DR is added to your K/E or I/E damage reduction and, as such, is more powerful; multiplicative DR is simply a percent reduction in all damage taken and is factored in post mitigation) and really shouldn't even make a difference since the healer shouldn't be targeted in the first place in order to *need* to benefit from the DR. Unless everyone else in the group is a complete idiot *and* the healer is vastly overgeared, the healer should never be under the risk of having threat and needing the assistance of a Guard.
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uziforyou's Avatar


uziforyou
01.17.2013 , 11:36 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Qvasar View Post
Because the players who need to be told what to do have no idea of what's going on around them. They don't know who are the most accomplished guilds, players, etc...
Yes, but...........

This is 90% of the people that play the game. They don't come to the forums, they don't research playing their class, their role, what speccs work, what don't etc. For good or ill the vast majority of players learn the game by trial and error (sometimes not learning from the errors) and intuition.

To me, this is what is at the heart of this entire thread. Our expectation is that tanks should KNOW how threat works, how each of their abilities work including guard. The reality is that just like dps and healers, most tanks fall into the 90% described above which in turn means they will likely remain uninformed and even unresponsive when they are shown the so called 'right way' to do something.

So, while I understand the frustration that generated this thread the circumstances that caused that frustration are most likely not going to change. The people that are in here reading this have been mostly supportive of the thought behind the OP.....................but these aren't the people who are causing the problem. Those people don't read the forums (mostly).
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jeniyagyu's Avatar


jeniyagyu
01.17.2013 , 12:39 PM | #25
lol! I love playing my low level assassin and doing GF FPs. I have +41 crystals in all my gear and most of the time purple armorings/mods/etc of the same level.

The FP will start and guard goes on healer .... first boss/during trash pulles depending on the fp ... I tank it ... guard switches, lol. XD

It isn't uncommon, the same goes for me, either I'll pick the DPS with the most gear if both are melee or the melee dps if there is one ranged (When I tank) or if there is none, or no melee dps, I'll guard the healer until I notice a dps constantly pulling aggro off me (target of target ftw! XD)

Aerilas's Avatar


Aerilas
01.17.2013 , 12:47 PM | #26
From a healer's point of view who is also a tank:

This goes only for random HM FP's. In Ops i assume the tank knows that he's doing and guards the best dps.

So. Personally when I tank I guard the strongest DPS.
When I'm healing, I'd rather have the tanks guard on me. Why? Because 95% of the tanks has no idea how to taunt or keep ALL enemies on him, for the entire fight. I myself know this but most don't.
In 75% of those 95% of the cases the DPS go for the strongest enemy first just like the tank does.
This causes ALL the other adds to fire on me because I'm the only one with aggro on them.

I am so sick and tired of this happening almost every ****in FP.

end /rant
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Gwence's Avatar


Gwence
01.17.2013 , 12:52 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Aerilas View Post
From a healer's point of view who is also a tank:

This goes only for random HM FP's. In Ops i assume the tank knows that he's doing and guards the best dps.

So. Personally when I tank I guard the strongest DPS.
When I'm healing, I'd rather have the tanks guard on me. Why? Because 95% of the tanks has no idea how to taunt or keep ALL enemies on him, for the entire fight. I myself know this but most don't.
In 75% of those 95% of the cases the DPS go for the strongest enemy first just like the tank does.
This causes ALL the other adds to fire on me because I'm the only one with aggro on them.

I am so sick and tired of this happening almost every ****in FP.

end /rant
this is because you start blasting heals on tank the instant they agro a pack

if you're not cc'ing anything, 1 dmg ae from the tank should be enough to keep adds off the healer for the whole fight.

keeping them off dps is another story of course

ElQuesoGrande's Avatar


ElQuesoGrande
01.17.2013 , 12:54 PM | #28
For the record all of you who claim guard only has damage reduction in PVP.... YOU should read the tooltip. the 50% damage transfer is PVP only, HOWEVER the 5% damage reduction and 25% threat reduction occur in PVE and PVP. The 5% reduction is NOT PvP dependent. That being said... if you guard a healer, you're bad and you should feel bad

SturmUndSterne's Avatar


SturmUndSterne
01.17.2013 , 01:35 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Gwence View Post
this is because you start blasting heals on tank the instant they agro a pack

if you're not cc'ing anything, 1 dmg ae from the tank should be enough to keep adds off the healer for the whole fight.

keeping them off dps is another story of course
lolno.

DPS who aggro strongs and start taking damage = need to heal.

A tank who jumps in and leads with a taunt before an AOE damage ability = healer will rip in exactly 6 seconds if they toss any heals at all, let alone an AoE heal or a HoT.

You make all of your generalizations thinking tanks know how to play their class. By and large, on my server, half the tanks that queue without full groups are DPSers in tank stance without gear and skill, or are in tionese or worse. My healer is in full campaign, my MDPS in half dread guard. I have to remind the tanks *constantly* to guard me as DPS, and if they don't, I apologize to the healer immediately for making them work hard. As for healing .. if I have a bad tank, I can keep them up, but i spend most of my time DPSing because otherwise I'd be meat.

That's why I pretty much exclusively run guild HMFP runs now. There's far, far too much bad.

ElQuesoGrande's Avatar


ElQuesoGrande
01.17.2013 , 01:38 PM | #30
Any tank who starts with a taunt on any fight = fail. taunts give 130% threat compared to the current highest active threat on the target. therefore taunts should only be used after using high threat abilities such as slow time or force breach and any other aoes if it's an aoe pull. at that point the 130% threat would mean that the taunt will allow you to keep aggro until the pull is over for the most part, because trash pulls die fast. 130% of 0 threat still = 0% so as he stated, in 6 seconds, someone else is pulling aggro if the tank opens with that ability