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Guarding the Healers


Qvasar's Avatar


Qvasar
01.17.2013 , 06:15 AM | #1
Please stop this nonsense.

I play a combat sentinel with BiS gear and I end up tanking 9/10 flashpoints and operations I join via group finder because tanks actively refuse to put their guard on me. I have stopped bothering trying to explain on a daily basis why they should do this and just do my best to "keep aggro" so they realize they are making a mistake.

For those who don't know how threat is calculated:
  • An attack has a 1.0x modifier on damage to threat.
  • A heal has a 0.5x modifier on heal to threat.
  • Tanking stance gives a 2.0x modifier on damage to threat.

This means a healer has to do 2x more healing than the damage done by a damage dealer (DD) in order to acctualy "pull aggro". If for example a DD is doing 1500DPS, the healer would have to do 3000HPS...

Also for those advocating the healer must have a guard because any adds will target him/her, guarding doesn't in any way prevent this from happening When adds spawn their "threat table" is empty and as soon as the healer casts a heal on anybody the threat generated from that heal is split amongs all the enemies currently engaged. Unless the adds are taunted or attacked they will go for the healer, regardless of guard.

So, if it makes no sense guarding the healer who is the guard for? Simple, the best damage dealer in the group.

Using my previous example of a DD doing 1500DPS, the tank would have to do more than 750DPS in order to "keep aggro" (disregarding "high threat" abilities and taunts).

Now ask yourselves what makes more sense:
  • A tank doing less than 750DPS - guard the best damage dealer in the group.
  • A healer doing more than 3000HPS - guard the healer.

Amusing fact: I once had a tank tell me to "stop taunting"... on a sentinel...

TL;DR
Learn about how threat is calculated - Tanking: A Primer; stop guarding the healers; guard the best damage dealer in group; AoE taunt adds.

snowmon's Avatar


snowmon
01.17.2013 , 06:24 AM | #2
the real problem is more simple than that......they just cant read properly.

they think its also a damage reduction, but us people that can read know this is infact only for pvp and not pve.

personally i agree with you, it should always be put on the dps, and if one of the dps is a powertech he should get priority as they are the only ones that dont have an aggro dump (juggs also i think) as i play powertech dps i find it so god dam annoying, constantly gimping my dps so i dont pull aggro

ps. the reason you end up tanking is because u r bad, a good dps will not pull aggro :P control your output, simple as that.
lvl 55 PT DPS, ToFN Server

Qvasar's Avatar


Qvasar
01.17.2013 , 06:40 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by snowmon View Post
the reason you end up tanking is because u r bad, a good dps will not pull aggro :P control your output, simple as that.
I can do that easily, I do it on guild operations for example. I just refuse to do it when the tank refuses to "listen". If a tank puts his guard on me and I still get aggro I will just dump it and tone down the DPS.

MyDarkSunshine's Avatar


MyDarkSunshine
01.17.2013 , 06:42 AM | #4
Mostly agree, however with every "always one answer" scenario it is an over simplification. There are some areas where it is actually better to guard healers, especially in Operations were the DPS are dealing with a completely different target's for large portions of the fights, for example Asation from the second boss to, and including, the third (excluding the final phase).

Guard should be used as an aggro reduction, you're right here. But some DPS genuinely pull less aggro than some healers, in which case, guard will go on the healer. If everyone is performing properly however you're right, it should go on the best DPS unless mechanics allow a tank to place it elsewhere.

Also if a tank is pulling 1000 dps, a DPS will have to pull over 1500 dps to pull aggro due to "high aggro" moves. However assuming you meant tps (threat per second) it is still slightly off, as you haven't included the range modifier to aggro. I forget the exact modifiers but essentially, assuming an equally good melee and ranged DPS, guard should also go on the melee DPS as they are more likely to pull aggro.
"Who I am is not important- my message is." Revan

Qvasar's Avatar


Qvasar
01.17.2013 , 06:52 AM | #5
Yes, there are special situations where you don't want guard on a melee DPS. For example:
  • TfB second boss at start where we actually want the best geared melee DPS to "tank" Heirad.
  • EC NiM on Trandoshans where we want the best geared melee DPS to "pull" and kill the Trandoshan Warriors away from the rest of the group.
  • ...

My post is however not directed at the crowd running these operations, but the generally less enlighted crowd on LFG.

Quote: Originally Posted by MyDarkSunshine View Post
Also if a tank is pulling 1000 dps, a DPS will have to pull over 1500 dps to pull aggro due to "high aggro" moves. However assuming you meant tps (threat per second) it is still slightly off, as you haven't included the range modifier to aggro.
Yes you are absolutly correct, I was trying to keep it as simple as possible. All "high threat" abilities have a threat increase of 0.5x. That is, using a tanking stance, a 2.5x modifier on damage to threat. Also the "aggro" doesn't switch targets on a 1:1 threat ratio, but on a 1:1.1 (melee) and 1:1.3 (ranged) threat ratio.

JediCahlwyn's Avatar


JediCahlwyn
01.17.2013 , 06:59 AM | #6
Yeah it is a hard concept for many to understand. Guard goes on the DPS in most cases. It is pretty much pointless to Guard a healer as in most fights they will be out of range for any benefits. I will pop Guard on a healer and use Guardian Leap if they suddenly take damage, but in general it stays on the Sentinel that is 2m away from me for 95% of the fight.

DPS have responsibility too that they often fail to follow through on. They need to use their aggro dump abilities ALL THE TIME. They often fail to even know they have them and what they are for. They also need to quit the Zerg mentality and know when to back off DPS. They need to give the tank a 2-5 sec head start to pop a few threat building abilities at the start of the fight, etc.

Back in EQ days if a DPS pulled aggro from the tank it was their fault and healers often wouldn't heal them. We had a little saying like "you gank it, you tank it" or something like that. And that was in a 72-man planar raid where you had to watch the tank whittle it down 5-10% to get enough aggro before you even attacked.

But I digress, yes please educate people. Guard is for DPS, melee DPS specifically due to the range limit, unless you are in PvP (or during an emergency) then its applications change.
--Master Endric Cahlwyn--
<The Womp Rats> of The Shadowlands
Jedi Guardian 55 For The Republic!

Vankris's Avatar


Vankris
01.17.2013 , 08:03 AM | #7
yesterday, i had a healer asking me why did i put my guard on the sentinel instead of him.

figure!
Shadow | Kinetic Combat

NotRonin's Avatar


NotRonin
01.17.2013 , 08:06 AM | #8
When you're queuing up for random HM flashpoints, I would guard the person who is best geared, even if it's a healer. Most HM FP are tuned for around 300-400 hps, which is less than 1/3 of what a healer can heal, and they'll be spending the other 2/3 of the time DPSing.

Dragonbgone's Avatar


Dragonbgone
01.17.2013 , 08:07 AM | #9
Tanking modifier is x2.0 for every point of normal damage. This was buffed before the release of TFB.
. : Messores Republicae : .
Reapers of the Republic

Qvasar's Avatar


Qvasar
01.17.2013 , 08:18 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by NotRonin View Post
When you're queuing up for random HM flashpoints, I would guard the person who is best geared, even if it's a healer. Most HM FP are tuned for around 300-400 hps, which is less than 1/3 of what a healer can heal, and they'll be spending the other 2/3 of the time DPSing.
Unless the gear gap between the healer and the DDs is huge, this strategy may fail (not saying it will).

Example: Poorly geared DD goes 1200DPS = 1200TPS. If the healer does 500HPS, that is 250TPS, so he will need to do more than 950DPS to actually be higher in the "threat table". Also if the DPS is melee he will "pull aggro" at 1.1x current target threat, whereas the healer being ranged will only "pull aggro" at 1.3x. Taking this 20% melee-ranged difference into account, the healer would actually have to do 1418 TPS = 500HPS + 1168 DPS, almost the same as the poorly geared DD. Anyway in this example I hardly think anyone would actually "pull aggro" off the tank.

Of course this depends on the situations, there are really good healers and really bad DDs out there.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dragonbgone View Post
Tanking modifier is x2.0 for every point of normal damage. This was buffed before the release of TFB.
You are correct. I overlooked that change (I don't have a tank myself so I forgot about it). Edited posts to reflect it.