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Newbie Raiding Question


Soulji's Avatar


Soulji
01.15.2013 , 10:22 AM | #1
I'm a Sorc and new to raiding. I've done SM EV and SM KP, but nothing higher (harder).
Lvling and pvping, I always geared as a dps\healer with this priority in mind; Willpower >= Power/Force Power > Surge (75%) = Crit (30%). (yes, i know i left off alacrity.)

So, when i looked at the
Black Hole Force-lord set;
(only mark of power class buff)

Willpower: 1538
Endurance: 1720
Power: 640
Crit Chance: 24%
Crit Multi: 59%
Force Power: 1300
Bonus Dmg: 753
Bonus Healings: 545
Armor Reduction: 19.5%
Health: 19700

I thought, hey, my current columni based gear is as good as or better than that.
(only mark of power class buff)

Willpower: 1938
Endurance: 1471
Power: 507
Crit Chance: 15%
Crit Multi: 74%
Forcepower: 1205
Bonus Dmg: 780
Bonus Healing: 560
Armor Reduction: 18%
HP: 17383

But, I've had several people tell me i need better gear for the harder OPs. Does that extra 2K hp and the 1.5% dmg reduction matter that much, even as a dps or heals?

Is the HM/Nighmare stat priority for dps/heals acutally; Armor Rating > Endurance >= Willpower >= Power/Force Power > Surge (75%) = Crit (30%)?

Darth_Dreselus's Avatar


Darth_Dreselus
01.15.2013 , 10:38 AM | #2
The Armour set you linked is actually very poorly optimised with Endurance heavy mods and defence relics (I don't even)

You do not need more health for HM KP/EV or SM EC/TFB, but you will want about 18k+ for HM EC and cca 20K for HM TFB and NiM EC. However, as a DPS Endurance is just stuff that comes on your gear and it is by no means a stat to be stacked.

As targets I would suggest the following (and you pretty much have the right idea):

Surge, 300-350 rating cca 75-77%
Crit, not more than 350 rating, in fact you will get most of your crit from Willpower cca 35-40%
Alacrity, pretty much whatever is left as your tertiary rating since Surge starts hitting DR around 300 and 350 is already in quite heavy DR.
Everything else to Willpower and Power.
As far as Endurance goes always go for the low Endurance armouring, mod and enhancement. Do not forget that you will also get Endurance on augments which should be Willpower augments.
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Thundergulch's Avatar


Thundergulch
01.15.2013 , 11:42 AM | #3
Gear sets are meant to be optimized.
If you just buy the complete set (for any class) and equip it, you will be gimping yourself a LOT.
For example: As a Marauder, I had to buy a ton of boots and gloves just for the mods and enhancements.
It takes a while to get fully optimized, but it's well worth it, and pretty much mandatory if you want to do the high end stuff.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.15.2013 , 12:26 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Soulji View Post
So, when i looked at the
Black Hole Force-lord set
Did you purposefully only take the basic Force-Lord stuff (and the wrong head piece at that) or was it just out of lack of experience? Also, why the hell did you grab the use tanking relics? Just because they have passive power doesn't mean that you should be using them (especially since they're acquired with daily comms, as are the DG relics, which you *should* be using instead, though the PvP passive power relics are actually BiS in most people's eyes). Since BH gear doesn't have a set bonus but your current set does, you're going to be yanking mods from the armoring and putting them in Columi/Tionese shells *anyway* so it's not like you're being *forced* to use the mods or even the shell even if they're outright bad for you.

For your helmet, you chose the random BH hat that drops off of SM Kephess and randomly off of the other EC HM bosses rather than the one that can be bought with commendations. You're just trading off the Crit and Surge for Power and Alacrity, but it's still an "illegal" choice considering.

For the chest, it's all properly itemized, so you're fine there.

For gloves, use the Striker's gloves and just replace the enhancement (the only part of them that *isn't* itemized beautifully) with the enhancement out of a piece of columi gear (or, barring that, buy a "spare" pair of boots and cannibalize the enh).

For belt and bracers, you don't really have much in the way of options, so it's a wash.

The pants are terribly itemized no matter how to do it, so, honestly, you're better off just buying the 26 leg armoring on it's own and cannibalizing a pair of boots for the mod and enh.

For boots, don't use the Force-lord Endurance heavy boots; use the Striker boots: they have no wasted stats and are fully optimized for max WP, Power, and Surge.

The implants are well Itemized so those are golden, but the ear is largely rubbish and you don't really have the option of switching to the Striker because the Accuracy actually makes it marginally worse even though it has better WP and crit. For the ear, just use the Rakata ear (you can buy it for 120 daily comms and it's actually better than the BH thanks to better itemization).

For the offhand, once again, use the Striker focus: more power and willpower, less Endurance.

For the MH, you can't even buy it with commendations so it's a moot point regardless.

Your stats should actually look more like 1649.6 WP, 748 power, 25.21% crit chance, crit multiplier 74.82%, 800.5 Bonus Damage, 578.8 Bonus healing, 11.27% activation speed.

Also, I'm *highly* suspect of your stats as they are listed there in your "current" gear. Unless you're explicitly choosing to perform an unequal comparison by excluding augments and spec, you're never going to get that much Willpower in SM KP/EV gear. You're never going to get 1900+ WP in pure columi gear unless you're doing an unequal comparison by including talent spec *and* datacrons *and* augs. I can only guess you're comparing baseline, untalented, unauged BH against fully auged, talented Columi, which, considering how much of your itemization comes from augs, is pretty much guaranteed to win out.
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shadowflit's Avatar


shadowflit
01.15.2013 , 05:06 PM | #5
Here's my Sage's 61 set from before the 63 gear. As you can no doubt tell, I am of the 40% crit is good school of thought, so there may be some variation from what you end up going for. Grab a DG power relic for your own set btw, and ignore the fact that I have two WH relics. That was before the clicky gave you power!

You can compare those stats to your current set however seems most fair to you. Like Kitru said, you couldn't possibly have been performing a comparison without augs or spec and be getting that much willpower in a columi set.
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DarthScruffy's Avatar


DarthScruffy
01.15.2013 , 06:29 PM | #6
If the mod has a letter (e.g. 26B) throw it out. It sacrifices power and willpower for endurance. Even for tanks I'd throw out lettered mods, though that is a little more controversial.

Soulji's Avatar


Soulji
01.15.2013 , 08:06 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Also, I'm *highly* suspect of your stats as they are listed there in your "current" gear. Unless you're explicitly choosing to perform an unequal comparison by excluding augments and spec, you're never going to get that much Willpower in SM KP/EV gear. You're never going to get 1900+ WP in pure columi gear unless you're doing an unequal comparison by including talent spec *and* datacrons *and* augs. I can only guess you're comparing baseline, untalented, unauged BH against fully auged, talented Columi, which, considering how much of your itemization comes from augs, is pretty much guaranteed to win out.
Yes, my current gear is fully augmented, all 14 slots. I subtracted the datacrons and talent bonus' from the willpower i listed. My gear is basically BM gear but with Columni armoring. And no that BH link isn't my BH wishlist. It seem poorly itemized to me, which is why i didn't understand why everyone seems to hold BH in such high esteem. I only picked those pieces because it was the "Force-Lord's" set. I only like the chest and the helm. I figure after that i can get the campaign armoring pieces.

I justed wanted to know if my augmented min/maxed columni mash up was as good as the stock unoptimized unaugmented BH set. Which ur post seems to confirm. ty, by the way. (ur right about the helm mistake, but they have the same willpower).

I hear people all the time talking about BH and rakata as a standard. As in "you need at least Black Hole." I was even kicked from a group cause the guy said i was in pvp gear. "You need to be in at least Rakata." It was frustrating.

The one thing u didn't talk about is the 1.5 increase in dmg reduction that BH has over columni armoring. Can i assume that its not that important?

"*highly* suspect"
I wasn't trying to mislead

steave's Avatar


steave
01.16.2013 , 03:33 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Soulji View Post
Yes, my current gear is fully augmented, all 14 slots. I subtracted the datacrons and talent bonus' from the willpower i listed. My gear is basically BM gear but with Columni armoring. And no that BH link isn't my BH wishlist. It seem poorly itemized to me, which is why i didn't understand why everyone seems to hold BH in such high esteem. I only picked those pieces because it was the "Force-Lord's" set. I only like the chest and the helm. I figure after that i can get the campaign armoring pieces.

I justed wanted to know if my augmented min/maxed columni mash up was as good as the stock unoptimized unaugmented BH set. Which ur post seems to confirm. ty, by the way. (ur right about the helm mistake, but they have the same willpower).

I hear people all the time talking about BH and rakata as a standard. As in "you need at least Black Hole." I was even kicked from a group cause the guy said i was in pvp gear. "You need to be in at least Rakata." It was frustrating.

The one thing u didn't talk about is the 1.5 increase in dmg reduction that BH has over columni armoring. Can i assume that its not that important?

"*highly* suspect"
I wasn't trying to mislead
What people mean when they say "at least black hole" is black hole mods in a tionese/columi/rakata shell, augmented and decently (not necessarily perfectly) itemized. Have a look at the amr build linked and really compare yourself to it - you're lacking 144 bonus healing, 20% crit chance and 1.5% surge, even when removing the buffs and stims that you probably did not include in your stated stats. That is HUGE.

Just substracting the WP etc from your stated stats doesn't work either - WP isn't a stat that actually has a direct impact, more WP != more healing/damage (and even if it did, mark of power and will of the sith provide a % based increase to it, so you get more WP out of each point of WP on gear/whatever than it actually states) - more WP gives you a higher crit chance and bonus damage/healing, and it's the extra crit+bonus damage/healing that actually gives you the performance boost. Just mentally subtracting the WP gain won't lower its impact on the stats that actually matter, and you're not including the 5% crit chance and 6% bonus healing bonus from the spec, nor the crit and bonus healing bonus you would get from the will of the sith talent.

However, you are correct that the lower armor amount doesn't matter. Even if you're taking damage, which you shouldn't, and even if it's kinetic/energy damage so that armor even works the damage taken difference is minimal.

Basically, if you're looking for confirmation that the people telling you to improve your gear are stupid, no you don't have that.
Now, if the stated requirements are reasonable is an another matter - you don't need optimized BH/Campaign gear until you start clearing EC/TFB HM, and at the very least EC is perfectly doable with optimized rakata (otherwise it would have been impossible to clear it in the first place in order to get the campaign gear), but a PUG won't have the coordination and/or experience with the content/working together as a guild does, so better gear is needed to make up for the difference.

Soulji's Avatar


Soulji
01.16.2013 , 06:41 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by steave View Post
Basically, if you're looking for confirmation that the people telling you to improve your gear are stupid, no you don't have that.
Now, if the stated requirements are reasonable is an another matter - you don't need optimized BH/Campaign gear until you start clearing EC/TFB HM, and at the very least EC is perfectly doable with optimized rakata (otherwise it would have been impossible to clear it in the first place in order to get the campaign gear), but a PUG won't have the coordination and/or experience with the content/working together as a guild does, so better gear is needed to make up for the difference.
Thank you for the response. I understand what ur saying. I appreciate the advice especially with regards to PUGing

Quote: Originally Posted by steave View Post
Have a look at the amr build linked and really compare yourself to it - you're lacking 144 bonus healing, 20% crit chance and 1.5% surge, even when removing the buffs and stims that you probably did not include in your stated stats. That is HUGE.
Where did u get these numbers? My current bonus healing is 560 and the set bonus healing is 545 so my bonus healing is higher. My crit is 15% and the set crit is 25%, that's -10. Also my crit multi 74%, which is +15

Quote: Originally Posted by steave View Post
Just substracting the WP etc from your stated stats doesn't work either - WP isn't a stat that actually has a direct impact, more WP != more healing/damage (and even if it did, mark of power and will of the sith provide a % based increase to it, so you get more WP out of each point of WP on gear/whatever than it actually states) - more WP gives you a higher crit chance and bonus damage/healing, and it's the extra crit+bonus damage/healing that actually gives you the performance boost. Just mentally subtracting the WP gain won't lower its impact on the stats that actually matter, and you're not including the 5% crit chance and 6% bonus healing bonus from the spec, nor the crit and bonus healing bonus you would get from the will of the sith talent.
Honestly when i started comparing i thougth the big willpower difference would have a larger affect, but the stock BH set has all that Power so it even's out, with regards to BonusDmg/Bonus Healing. I left out all skill and talent buffs (i.e 5% crit chance and 6% bonus healing) on both sets of gear, except mark of power. I didn't think the site i used would add the 6% bonus healing.

steave's Avatar


steave
01.16.2013 , 08:45 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Soulji View Post
Where did u get these numbers? My current bonus healing is 560 and the set bonus healing is 545 so my bonus healing is higher. My crit is 15% and the set crit is 25%, that's -10. Also my crit multi 74%, which is +15
I meant the one linked by shadowflit which shows what you should be at when you're in BH/campaign.


Quote: Originally Posted by Soulji View Post
Honestly when i started comparing i thougth the big willpower difference would have a larger affect, but the stock BH set has all that Power so it even's out, with regards to BonusDmg/Bonus Healing. I left out all skill and talent buffs (i.e 5% crit chance and 6% bonus healing) on both sets of gear, except mark of power. I didn't think the site i used would add the 6% bonus healing.
Stock BH is irrelevant - as mentioned that's not what people mean when they talk about being BH geared. It should be augmented and decently optimized as well, and yes, amr does include all bonuses from talents, legacy and datacrons etc.