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Open for suggestions, Zorn + Toth NMM with 2 Powertechs

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
Open for suggestions, Zorn + Toth NMM with 2 Powertechs

BlznSmri's Avatar


BlznSmri
01.12.2013 , 03:13 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Vankris View Post
After the jump, the tank of zorn just let toth go back to the other tank a while then taunt it back before it reach it. that way, he never have both boss hitting him.
I honestly don't see why people do this, it's just so slow to wait for Toth to run back. Seriously, just when he leaps, taunt and run back. A way to expedite it would be to have the tank that had Toth prior to the leap Charge/ Leap to Toth then taunt Zorn as the other tank starts to run back (obviously having already taunted Toth). It would take the same amount of time for the stacks to drop (if done correctly) with a VG/ PT running back as it would with a Shadow/ Sin using Force Speed or a Jugg/ Guardian using Intercede/ Guardian Leap to a friendly. Hell, if you had a Sent/ Mara or a Sage/ Sorc you could have them pop Transcendence/ Predation or have them use Rescue/ Extrication.

Waiting for Toth to run back just wastes far too much time.
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Vankris's Avatar


Vankris
01.12.2013 , 08:51 AM | #12
you gotta be careful that the tank of toth is not in the 30m of zorn during the jump, to not catch the fearful.

What i suggested is to reduced the occasional burst of damage on one tank. You are right is saying it's a slight waste of time, thus of DPS, but it also avoid burst on the tank. So it really depends on your group and the difficulty your group is facing. In essence, it's a form of kiting, it just is a tool you may or may not need.

For instance, if your group DPS is quite good, so good in fact you have to stop dps to not overlap the jump, doing what i suggest is not harmful, it is in fact safer for the tank.

If your DPS is not that perfect, and you need to rack up as much DPS time as you can, then don't do the kitting, have tank use cooldown instead.
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Samohnat's Avatar


Samohnat
01.12.2013 , 09:24 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by BlznSmri View Post
I honestly don't see why people do this, it's just so slow to wait for Toth to run back.
Because this way, if done correctly, you get 0 stacks on the bosses.

Doubledeath's Avatar


Doubledeath
01.12.2013 , 09:45 AM | #14
i feel like if i tell you this i may make the game UN-fun but you can completely break this fight and make it 100 times easier for everyone. here is how you do it.
start out like normal with the first boss swap.
when the yellow circle comes never take it to toth
when u see the yellow circle have 1 melee switch to zorn and the 2 ranged switch to toth
when toth is about 20-30% ahead on hp have the 2nd melee switch to zorn
kill both bosses.

no mechanics at all. no red circles. no aoe's no anything.

if the tank on toth gets a yellow circle swap with zorn tank.
the only people that take dmg here is the tank on toth the melee dps on toth and who ever zorn throws rocks at.
the healing can get sorta intense when u have 2 melee its obviously super easy with 3 ranged but it can be healed through just have the melee dps cycle cool downs when u need him to.

the AOE on toth will now only be 10 meters so healers can stand in the middle and heal the entire group instead of being separated

Toth takes less dmg than normal while in this state and that is the reason for leaving the 2nd melee dps on toth you have to push him down hard and you still want both bosses to die together.

RikuvonDrake's Avatar


RikuvonDrake
01.12.2013 , 10:29 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by BlznSmri View Post
I honestly don't see why people do this, it's just so slow to wait for Toth to run back.
No stacks on any of the bosses when they reach the tanks, as well as avoiding having fearfull on one of the tanks during leap, this happeneds when DPS is good so maybe not the case for everyone but we had problem with it and handled it this way.
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BlznSmri's Avatar


BlznSmri
01.12.2013 , 05:40 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Samohnat View Post
Because this way, if done correctly, you get 0 stacks on the bosses.
Quote: Originally Posted by RikuvonDrake View Post
No stacks on any of the bosses when they reach the tanks, as well as avoiding having fearfull on one of the tanks during leap, this happeneds when DPS is good so maybe not the case for everyone but we had problem with it and handled it this way.
The bosses are always going to get stacks, and they fall off as soon as the bosses are out of range of each other. So long as the Tanks are topped off by the time of the switch, and the Zorn tank doesn't get any reflected damage from Fearful, there'll be no problem. Also, the Zorn tank is ALWAYS going to get Fearful, which is the whole point of the swap in the first place.

Quote: Originally Posted by Vankris View Post
you gotta be careful that the tank of toth is not in the 30m of zorn during the jump, to not catch the fearful.
Tank Zorn at the tree over by the Cave entrance and tank Toth just under where the Task Master leaps down. Never have to worry about fearful.
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RikuvonDrake
01.12.2013 , 07:16 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by BlznSmri View Post
The bosses are always going to get stacks, and they fall off as soon as the bosses are out of range of each other. So long as the Tanks are topped off by the time of the switch, and the Zorn tank doesn't get any reflected damage from Fearful, there'll be no problem. Also, the Zorn tank is ALWAYS going to get Fearful, which is the whole point of the swap in the first place.
You describe the mechanic correctly, but are unable to understand the tactic I wrote on the first page, so let me explain to you. Being topped off is naturally the best plan, for every situation, however in Nightmare that is hard as the amount of damage is very high, it is possible but at the same time hard. Regardless, when Toth jumps, they start to get stacks and they will continue getting them, then the tank that hard Zorn taunts Toth, and when he starts to get back, he loses his stacks before he hits the tank. Same on the tank whom now has swapped to Zorn, his boss, when it comes in range of the tank, will have lost his stacks before he can hit the tank.

Fearfull is a problem if the groups DPS is "to high", as the switch happened at specific % at the bosses, one tank may still have the fearfull debuff from the previous jump. However using the tactic written above (more details on first page in my post), you are able to delay the encounter of Tank vs Boss until the tank has lost his fearfull debuff.

It is correct that the entire swap centers around the fearfull debuff, you are once again able to describe a mechanic correctly but not able to understand the tactic that I wrote on the first page. Using the tactic I wrote, you are however able to handle a situation when BOTH tanks have the fearfull debuff (one tank still have 5-10 s left on his debuff).

Quote: Originally Posted by BlznSmri View Post
Tank Zorn at the tree over by the Cave entrance and tank Toth just under where the Task Master leaps down. Never have to worry about fearful.
Where you tank the bosses are different from most guilds, however how my guild and MoX, Chosen, Ace, FriendlyFire tanks it (all guilds 16man EC Nightmare) is considered one of the best ways, not the best, there might be other ways, but it is one of the best. Feel free to try it out.
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BlznSmri's Avatar


BlznSmri
01.12.2013 , 07:30 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by RikuvonDrake View Post
It is correct that the entire swap centers around the fearfull debuff, you are once again able to describe a mechanic correctly but not able to understand the tactic that I wrote on the first page. Using the tactic I wrote, you are however able to handle a situation when BOTH tanks have the fearfull debuff (one tank still have 5-10 s left on his debuff).
Single Taunt Guarantees aggro for 6 seconds (unless overridden by another taunt) and then you can use your AoE taunt to maintain, and build (110% of threat it would take to pull per taunt if if you were in Melee range) for the remainder of the Fearful debuff. Each 20% dip in boss health takes anywhere from 45 to 60 seconds so if necessary you can use taunt more than once on the occasion that you can't damage the bosses due to fearful.

Quote: Originally Posted by RikuvonDrake View Post
Where you tank the bosses are different from most guilds, however how my guild and MoX, Chosen, Ace, FriendlyFire tanks it (all guilds 16man EC Nightmare) is considered one of the best ways, not the best, there might be other ways, but it is one of the best. Feel free to try it out.
I have tried it, in fact the other (well, now only) raid group does the strat the same way (tanking them across from each other, waiting for Toth to run back), but when they've done it the way I've described, they've said that it's arguably better in terms of positioning and down time on the bosses.

Edit: I understand waiting for Fearful to fall off and the reasoning behind it, and I often personally kinda wish that DPS was a little bit lower so that my Deflection and CC Breaker CDs are off by the time I get to Berserk/ Red Circles, but Fearful is perhaps the easiest mechanic in the game to adjust for, since it's not affected by RNG (from defensive stats, or where and how frequently you're targeted by Red Circles).
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RikuvonDrake's Avatar


RikuvonDrake
01.12.2013 , 08:18 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by BlznSmri View Post
Single Taunt Guarantees aggro for 6 seconds (unless overridden by another taunt) and then you can use your AoE taunt to maintain, and build (110% of threat it would take to pull per taunt if if you were in Melee range) for the remainder of the Fearful debuff. Each 20% dip in boss health takes anywhere from 45 to 60 seconds so if necessary you can use taunt more than once on the occasion that you can't damage the bosses due to fearful.
Tanks only need to use taunt and then some HP booster or some kind of pull and their aggro is solid as they get the aggro from the last tank, they don't start at 0 so even having 10s left on fearful, that I have had from time to time, is easily manageable.

Quote: Originally Posted by BlznSmri View Post
I have tried it, in fact the other (well, now only) raid group does the strat the same way (tanking them across from each other, waiting for Toth to run back), but when they've done it the way I've described, they've said that it's arguably better in terms of positioning and down time on the bosses.
Depends, there is almost never a time where DPS cannot hit, tanks won't lose aggro if they don't hit for 5s even 10s, but I guess it's all down to what you are used to, if you tactic works better for you, I won't force you to change it. Positioning can be a little tricky, the tank that Toth leaps FROM will have to take a few steps forward to taunt the boss, and this can sometimes be a little slow if the tank is slow. Also, the tank that Toth leaps TO might wait to long, or to short to taunt as he is unsure about the correct timing =)

Quote: Originally Posted by BlznSmri View Post
Edit: I understand waiting for Fearful to fall off and the reasoning behind it, and I often personally kinda wish that DPS was a little bit lower so that my Deflection and CC Breaker CDs are off by the time I get to Berserk/ Red Circles, but Fearful is perhaps the easiest mechanic in the game to adjust for, since it's not affected by RNG (from defensive stats, or where and how frequently you're targeted by Red Circles).
I agree with you on some points, I think that fight is boring and want to get on the tanks instead, so I wish my DPS was faster, regarding CC breaker, try the middle tree for specc and you should be fine. At least that is what I am doing and it works like a charm, and you want that specc for Kephess as well for the interrupts on droids.
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BlznSmri's Avatar


BlznSmri
01.12.2013 , 08:34 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by RikuvonDrake View Post
Tanks only need to use taunt and then some HP booster or some kind of pull and their aggro is solid as they get the aggro from the last tank, they don't start at 0 so even having 10s left on fearful, that I have had from time to time, is easily manageable.
That suggestion was for if you thought holding aggro off of some over zealous dps was going to be a problem.
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