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A Plague of Hate


Empiredivider's Avatar


Empiredivider
01.11.2013 , 04:29 PM | #11
as I stated in the article, there is nothing wrong with criticism as long as it is constructive. If you allow your hate a vitriol to make comments that express no constructive criticism, that is when it starts to become sad and pathetic.

TheNahash's Avatar


TheNahash
01.11.2013 , 05:07 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by BobaTed View Post
Where do you draw the line, though? For instance, I've warned people off of this game, usually on the basis that if they're looking for an alternative to WoW style gameplay, this ain't it. Is that criticism, or bashing? Sure, the "this game sux" posts are pretty cut and dry, but the general tolerance level IMO isn't very high.
I think you misunderstood me. I never said or even implied that your opinion, that you will share with reasons to back it up (like what you mentioned about SWTOR not being an alternative to WoW's playstyle) is bashing. That's where I personally draw the line. If you go on youtube, commenting on videos where other people are trying to enjoy the game's PVP or trying to learn the tactics for a fight or even start saying things like "this game sucks", "this game's dead" and when asked "why?" your reasoning is "just because" on the game's general chat, then yes that's bashing.
Doesn't mean you (again you = anyone) don't have the right to do so. I still have the right to consider that pathetic. And frankly, a bit stupid.


Quote: Originally Posted by BobaTed View Post
Does it also go for the, ahem, devotees of the game who think Bioware can do no wrong, and who jump all over anything that in the least way smacks of criticism of the game? I dunno about you, but I find those people rather pathetic and sad - and somewhat blindsighted to the possibilities of this game (and others). However, I'd hesitate to characterize them as "forever aloners" trying desperately to find meaning in their lives through slavish support.
Definitely. However, devotees of the game are probably not going to comment on how great the game is on youtube. I have seen questions, arguments but not "WOW THIS GAME ROCKS" - at least not since before its release. I guess that's probably because it didn't live up to the larger-than-life expectations people had of it (people were acting like SWTOR would be the second coming of Jesus...) and because it became "cool" to jump on the bash-wagon. But I digress.
Yes, I find sad and pathetic both the people that hate the game and bash it everywhere they find just because they can and those who think that the developers can do no wrong. And to me that shows a total lack of real life stuff, which makes them focus on a game (either bashing or worshiping it), which is why I find them sad and pathetic.

However, when it comes to people who like the game and still play it (not unlike myself) you have to take into account the fact that although we realize there are issues - some major, some minor - we like it and enjoy it anyway. I would like my sorcerer to be able to PVP without a hybrid spec. I'd also like more content and dynamic events. I'd like to see more convenience stuff and more bug fixes.
But I still like it for what it is and I don't expect it to turn into something else because I'd like it to be different. Someone else in another post said something that I honestly believe. He said "People say they want something different than WoW, but then again they don't. The minute something is not exactly like it is there, they start comparing it and finding faults everywhere. They essentially do not want a different game. They want the same game with a different setting." The same could be said about GW2, Rift, Terra, TSW etc.

I don't care how those games do it, I enjoy the game and accept it as it is - with its faults and issues. I will leave when I get bored but I have no illusions that I know better what the game needs and it so happens that what it needs is what I want

Anyway, I think I'm taking the topic somewhere completely different than where the OP wanted it to go and for that I'm sorry OP. It's just that I keep hearing about those "devotees" and "biodrones" yet it never crosses people's minds that it might not be that they turn a blind eye on the game's faults, but enjoy it as it is. It seems like such a weird concept that someone else might be enjoying something someone else isn't, right?

And being vocal about something you enjoy, makes more sense to me than just hating something you are not forced to endure.

lichoniespi's Avatar


lichoniespi
01.11.2013 , 07:12 PM | #13
Why people are not happy about SWTOR?
Its a price for own fame for Bioware. People are expecting something in line with Baldurs Gate II, Jade Empire, Mass Effect 2 or Dragon Age Orgins. And SWTOR is just a totally different beast, when it hits you, its shocking.
For me SWTOR is too much WoW in ExU SW. I like ExU SW but i dont like WoW, if i liked WoW, i would plaied it!

HOwever i still kinda enjoy the game (SWTOR), i plan to do all 8 storyilines and have great time. However as soon as i reach 8x50 there will be uninstall and never look back.

The only sin of SWTOR is that its another generic MMO, nothing bad with that, just not all folks enjoy the genre. Happens, no hard feelings. It gets some points for SW mark.

As for reason why not be happy with SWTOR as a game:

- MMO gameplay, which often means just tapping various keys on keyboard from 1 to + (aka rotacion) with good enough key binding you can even just roll your face over for maximum effect. Hardly any ability have condicional effect. Most abilities look same they just vary with DMG value, cld and activacion/channel time.

- NO immersion. If i play sniper it totally dont feel like im shoting something.
If i play sith warrior its not like facing.
Maybe if playing sniper was more like ME, and Jugernaut more like Chilvary it would felt better but its not, and never be. As i said SWTOR is just another generic MMO.

- Storylines without choices. You cant roleplay if you cant make choices, and if there is no real consequences of it.

- Cripped dialogues.

- Cripped companions. No Dialogues, no side missions, just sam short liners if you fed them with enought gifts. And generally they are poor written.

hemmullenn's Avatar


hemmullenn
01.12.2013 , 06:07 AM | #14
An open letter to Bioware (not EA!)

I am writing to let you know that the savage vocal critics of Biowares recent productions do not represent the core base of Bioware fans in the world. I had my own criticisms of some of the game content of recent Bioware creations but, when the dust settles and I pause to look around at the other drivell on offer from game producers, I realise that Bioware games are still the best quality game entertainment by far. The self-appointed assassins in the fan base are like spoiled brats who have too soon forgotten how Bioware lifted the gaming industry out of the realms of mediocre entertainment and into the realm of dynamic, quality creativity. Bioware (and some other contributers) have created a new art form. Most of the Bioware creations are more involving and submersive than films and certainly better value than any other form of entertainment. I congratulate and thank you and all the Bioware team, past and present, for the magnificent projects you have delivered to the gaming world. Unfortunately, many who have jumped on the Bioware band wagon are pretenders who are stil being weened off "Halo" and "Command and Conquer." They are ungrateful oinks who no longer recognise quality but are more intent on becoming little judges and advisors to real artists. I urge you to abandon this new policy of compromise, and allow Bioware the creative freedom it once enjoyed, unshacked by the whims of an untalented minority. Shakespeare would not consult his readers before writing his next classic play!

Please, for the sake of art and creativity, let Bioware, not the so-called fans, create the games. I do not speak for myself alone but also for many friends, family and aquaintences, all Bioware users.

I am Biowares loyal follower.

Regards,

Steve Brown
England

ps "EA" have not been good for Bioware but, I think you probably already know that don't you!

BobaTed's Avatar


BobaTed
01.12.2013 , 08:57 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by TheNahash View Post
Definitely. However, devotees of the game are probably not going to comment on how great the game is on youtube.
Maybe not, but some get hot under the collar real quick even at reasonable criticisms. It only helps to fuel the fire...

Quote:
Yes, I find sad and pathetic both the people that hate the game and bash it everywhere they find just because they can and those who think that the developers can do no wrong. And to me that shows a total lack of real life stuff, which makes them focus on a game (either bashing or worshiping it), which is why I find them sad and pathetic.
I think when you and I look at the quotes the OP posted, we see different things. Granted, context is everything, and it's tricky to interpret those posts without it. At face value, though, I get the sense that a few of them (possibly all of 'em) were made by people who may once have been enthusiastic about the game, gave it a fair shot, and walked away disappointed. I don't find it pathetic to vent disappointment and frustration - it may not be smart, but, AFAIC, it's human nature. As for the lack of constructive criticism, well, what's the point if you're convinced it won't do any good?

You see no-life whiners desperately seeking validation - I see people (like myself) who wanted to like the game to stay with it long-term, but couldn't, and are ticked off.

There's another dimension that I've been hesitant to bring in, but this is as good a time as any. SWTOR, by its very existence, is blocking the production of any other legitimate Star Wars themed MMO. This is all we're gonna get. Naturally I don't expect SWTOR to just go away, nor do I begrudge the people who enjoy it. However, those of us who really want a Star Wars MMO, but who just aren't getting the SW vibe from this game - well, we're screwed. In a sense, a part of that "hate" that you're seeing is the frustration of consumers under a monopoly. Most of the "haters" won't realize it, nevermind say it, but that's part of the underlying psychology. They (we?) don't like what's being offered, but they know there will never be an alternative - the choice is to shut up like good little drones, or lash out when given the chance.

Again, I don't see it as "pathetic" (except in terms of the overall situation), but human nature. It's the mutterings of those who have been let down, and who are convinced things won't get any better.

TheNahash's Avatar


TheNahash
01.12.2013 , 10:30 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by BobaTed View Post
Again, I don't see it as "pathetic" (except in terms of the overall situation), but human nature. It's the mutterings of those who have been let down, and who are convinced things won't get any better.
I think it's time we agree to disagree on this one then.
Because at this point I think both of us have made it pretty clear what we consider constructive criticism aimed at improving the game and what not.

My honest opinion is that whining being "human nature" is not something we should be proud of and/or encourage. Just because something is in our nature doesn't mean it's the right (or logical, in this case) thing to do. I, for one, don't like rationalizing irrational behavior by saying it's "human nature". And that goes for a lot of things, some of which are much more important than a simple game. Isn't it human nature to be envious? To let your emotions get the best of you, making you do things that ultimately lead to you losing your humanity? I think it's really dangerous to just call something "human nature" and accept it as that, especially when that something stems from feelings of anger and hate. But I'm pretty sure your opinion differs.

BobaTed's Avatar


BobaTed
01.12.2013 , 12:12 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by TheNahash View Post
I think it's time we agree to disagree on this one then.
Probably. Won't stop me from talking, though.
Quote:
Because at this point I think both of us have made it pretty clear what we consider constructive criticism aimed at improving the game and what not.
What is and isn't constructive criticism is tangential to my point.
Quote:
My honest opinion is that whining being "human nature" is not something we should be proud of and/or encourage. Just because something is in our nature doesn't mean it's the right (or logical, in this case) thing to do. I, for one, don't like rationalizing irrational behavior by saying it's "human nature".
Then you're missing my point, I think, though we'd probably still disagree. I'm not rationalizing the behavior - in fact, I said such behavior isn't very smart. Rather, I'm objecting to your personal characterization (and thereby demonization) of people who, in my mind, have a right to be ticked off.

The OP asked a specific question, namely, "What drives people to spend energy attacking something they donít care about?" I'm giving a possible answer. Some of the people in question do care, but know that their constructive comments will fall on deaf ears - but feel the need to comment anyway. Like I said, not smart, but there it is.

Whle the expression of their frustration may not be productive, that's not sufficient reason to dismiss them as lonely, no-life putzes. That's what I take issue with more than anything else. Their comments do carry a message, even if it isn't "constructive" in the usual sense of the word, and the people behind that message are likely as productive and normal as anyone who plays MMOs.

Empiredivider's Avatar


Empiredivider
01.12.2013 , 02:54 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by BobaTed View Post
Some of the people in question do care, but know that their constructive comments will fall on deaf ears - but feel the need to comment anyway.
In those situations it is time to pack your bags and move on. Continuous commenting to people who you feel will not hear you out, is a sign of insanity.

Quote: Originally Posted by BobaTed View Post
Whle the expression of their frustration may not be productive, that's not sufficient reason to dismiss them as lonely, no-life putzes. That's what I take issue with more than anything else. Their comments do carry a message, even if it isn't "constructive" in the usual sense of the word, and the people behind that message are likely as productive and normal as anyone who plays MMOs.
The message of an unproductive comment is one of attention seeking. Comments like "this game sucks" helps nobody (unless the topic is, asking for opinions about your enjoyment of the game). It in no way helps developers know how to fix the problem or even understand what the problem is. Thus it is reason enough to dismiss them all as pathetic attention seeking nobodies.

TheNahash's Avatar


TheNahash
01.12.2013 , 07:26 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by BobaTed View Post
Then you're missing my point, I think, though we'd probably still disagree. I'm not rationalizing the behavior - in fact, I said such behavior isn't very smart. Rather, I'm objecting to your personal characterization (and thereby demonization) of people who, in my mind, have a right to be ticked off.

The OP asked a specific question, namely, "What drives people to spend energy attacking something they donít care about?" I'm giving a possible answer. Some of the people in question do care, but know that their constructive comments will fall on deaf ears - but feel the need to comment anyway. Like I said, not smart, but there it is.
And that is exactly where our opinions differ.
You find that behavior "not smart" and I find it pathetic and sad.
We agree that people have the right to be ticked off by anything they want and voice their opinions, but we disagree on the idea you seem to support that mindless bashing of whatever ticks them off and of the people that do enjoy it is acceptable.
It's not constructive criticism, it's not just "not smart" and I think you are falsely assuming that the majority of those people's reactions come from a good place, trying to help it get better or from the disappointment of not living up to their expectations. I don't. I honestly think a big portion of those bashing it the way we are talking about, are people who have never played the game and are just willing to support anything considered "kewl" and bash anything considered ripe for bashing. The same people who'd bash a movie or a song by repeating the grotesque memes they are ever so fond of.

If we were talking about a new law, people would have every right in the world to be angry if they disagreed - it's something that affects everyone and it's not optional. A game is optional. And, as I've mentioned before, those that have indeed played and left it, disappointed that it didn't turn out as they had imagined, have the right to be angry to some extent. However, bashing it and the people that still like it without so much as giving a reason for all this hate simply does not make sense.

Quote: Originally Posted by BobaTed View Post
Whle the expression of their frustration may not be productive, that's not sufficient reason to dismiss them as lonely, no-life putzes. That's what I take issue with more than anything else. Their comments do carry a message, even if it isn't "constructive" in the usual sense of the word, and the people behind that message are likely as productive and normal as anyone who plays MMOs.
The only messages those specific comments carry are:
a) that they can't form a complete sentence that's not a copy-paste of a meme
b) that people are always willing to hate something just because it's cool to do so
and c) that entitlement and over-the-top expectations have destroyed what could have been a pleasant -yet always optional - experience.

As for your last sentence, I think you misunderstood the "not having anything better to do in their life" part of my first post.
So just to be clear, I don't care if the person doing it is a 12 year old kid obsessed with Youtube and MMOs, a 26 year old professional gamer or a 40 year old man who has a job and supports a family. When you post something non-substantial and non-constructive about some form of entertainment that you don't enjoy, that to me is pathetic and sad.

When someone's favorite pastime is raining on other people's parades, just for ***** and giggles, for something that for one reason or another has no effect on him/her, no matter how many arguments you present, in my mind remains pathetic.

By the way, this is one of those rare times on the internet where you realize you are talking to a person who has some points that make sense and presents them well, which is why I don't understand why you would make excuses for anyone who is not actually voicing his disappointment in a rational way, but instead resorts to "lol dead game is dead" tantrums.

And no, because "it falls on deaf ears" is not a reason - whenever someone feels a company that provides a service or a product related to entertainment does not satisfy his needs, he provides suggestions and if things don't improve he/she simply uses another product/service from the plethora of similar products/services available. The idea that people got tired of "I think what this game needs is X" and therefore the next logical step is "I HATE YOU DIE NOW" is a pretty irrational one.

BobaTed's Avatar


BobaTed
01.13.2013 , 09:11 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Empiredivider View Post
In those situations it is time to pack your bags and move on. Continuous commenting to people who you feel will not hear you out, is a sign of insanity.
I'd agree on the first part, but how do you know that the commenting is continuous? Is it the same people saying the same thing over and over? Or are the comments just parting shots from people who have reached their limit?

Quote:
The message of an unproductive comment is one of attention seeking.
It's easy to see it that way - but each of those quotes (especially the first three) could also represent someone who is following the development of the game, waiting for a reason to get back in. That's the "message" I'm referring to.

And let's face it, anything anyone posts on the internet can be construed as "attention seeking" if you squint enough...

Quote:
Comments like "this game sucks" helps nobody (unless the topic is, asking for opinions about your enjoyment of the game). It in no way helps developers know how to fix the problem or even understand what the problem is. Thus it is reason enough to dismiss them all as pathetic attention seeking nobodies.
The last three messages may fall under the "this game sucks" category, but certainly the first three list specific objections to the developmental direction of the game. They are feedback, and even if they're a bit vitriolic, they are still constructive in the sense of giving the developers specific reasons as to why they're not playing. AFAIC, they're more constructive than my criticism earlier in this thread, which was apparently deemed ok.

So why are they being painted with the same broad brush as the "lol SWTOR sux" posts?