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I do not agree with the inclusion of SGRs.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion > Suggestion Box
I do not agree with the inclusion of SGRs.
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-IceHawk-'s Avatar


-IceHawk-
01.11.2013 , 06:08 PM | #441
Last I checked Bioware ULC, which includes offices in Montreal, Quebec, Fairfax, Austin, Sacramento, and Galway has been a subsidiary property of Electronic Arts based out of Redwood City, California since 2008.

It is a Canadian company that is owned by an American company, whose stock is subsumed under the EA listing.

Considering that Bioware is owned by an American company and that its principle market is America mentioning that its principle offices are Canadian is a semantic rejoinder without much meaning.

Insofar as the future development of SGRAs...
Considering the state of the current core components of the game and the limited nature of the Makeb mini-expansion does anyone really expect Bioware to spend massive amounts of development time on class-specific companion arcs that include SGRAs?

At best we are looking at an HK-51 –esque faction specific SGRA-companion that may or may not be available in both Male and Female options (CC Market Unlock?) at some undisclosed point in the future.

Romance Arcs of any kind are a minor aspect of this game and the population that values SGRA above the core gameplay at 50 is so miniscule as to be immaterial to the overall financial outlook of this game if they were to unsub enmasse.

Bioware is not going to re-edit existing companion story arcs to include SGRA, so it will never be a portion of your main leveling experience. And its existence has zero bearing on the majority of players who focus on Flash-Points, Operations, and PVP.

I expect a full-scale SGRA companion right after they launch Guild Ships...


EDIT: Let me put it this way; If Bioware does not have the financial support necessary to develop a Pay-to-Play expansion with Class Specific stories at what point do you think they will have enough money to develop Class Specific SGRA?

markcymru's Avatar


markcymru
01.11.2013 , 06:44 PM | #442
Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
Insofar as the future development of SGRAs...
Considering the state of the current core components of the game and the limited nature of the Makeb mini-expansion does anyone really expect Bioware to spend massive amounts of development time on class-specific companion arcs that include SGRAs?
For me, the state of the ‘core’ components seems to be just fine, because I play and enjoy the game without problems. So this term ‘core’ that you've used amounts to begging the question.


Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
At best we are looking at an HK-51 –esque faction specific SGRA-companion that may or may not be available in both Male and Female options (CC Market Unlock?) at some undisclosed point in the future.
I can’t speak for other players who want SGRAs, but as far as I’m concerned, this would be just fine as a next step, apart from the Pay2Gay implications of the CC comment (which would be utterly discriminatory). So what’s your point, anyway?

Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
Romance Arcs of any kind are a minor aspect of this game and the population that values SGRA above the core gameplay at 50 is so miniscule as to be immaterial to the overall financial outlook of this game if they were to unsub enmasse.
Question-begging terminology highlighted.

Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
Bioware is not going to re-edit existing companion story arcs to include SGRA, so it will never be a portion of your main leveling experience. And its existence has zero bearing on the majority of players who focus on Flash-Points, Operations, and PVP.
You may be right that it’s too big a job to go back and re-do existing story arcs. But this thread is about future inclusion of SGR content, and there’s lots of ways that can be done. This ‘can’t go back and re-do’ point that you’re making is kind of irrelevant to the main point of the thread. All you’ve really said is that if they go ahead and put in SGR content it won’t likely be via a re-do. OK… so?
Also, I wouldn't expect the majority of players who focus on Flash-points etc to care much about SGRs. Why would they ? They're in a different segment. There's another segment, those who play the game for story etc, and I'll bet they would be very interested in SGRs. BioWare seems to want to satisfy both segments, and that's fine by me -- but apparently not fine by you.
Maana Mungu aliupenda ulimwengu hivi hata akamtoa Mwana wake wa pekee, ili kila amwaminiye asipotee, bali awe na uzima wa milele

-IceHawk-'s Avatar


-IceHawk-
01.11.2013 , 09:06 PM | #443
It is not petitio principii simply because you disagree with the premise.
If that is the tactic you wish to employ in order to debate the burden of proof will shift to you in the validation of your premise.

Which if I am not mistaken, is either that 1) It's your turn or 2) you represent a larger portion of the community than anyone realizes. Neither of which I find satisfying from an epistemological point of view.

I offer as evidence the innumerable threads dominating the more travelled forums (General and PVP) demonstrating a clear concern on the part of the player-base concerning PVP-Balance and Bug Fix/Optimization cycles.

In the aftermath of 1.2 the PVP forums have essentially exploded, with concerns over balance reaching a new zenith with the confluence of Rage-Spec Marauders and Backlash-Barrier Sorcerers more recently.

I highly doubt that mDPS or DPS Sorc/Mercs would support your contention that their particular Endgame core component is in anything but a broken state.

Fortunately recent optimization and bug patches have created a more stable client and solved a number of game-breaking issues. Bioware's eventual fix for March of the Dread Guard was a good sign. That they crashed Harbinger and some posters were reporting new bugs in that very same mission leaves me skeptical as to whether the basic PVE content really is "just fine."

Insofar as the Cartel Market unlock; with the new F2P option who knows.
Makeb is placing Level 55 and the extension of even faction-story lines (and SGRA flirt options) behind a pay wall. The new T7 Space Gear was effectively placed behind a pay wall, and the Life Day "event" was placed behind a pay wall. The Cathar are going behind a pay wall as well.

I would frankly be unsurprised if Bioware placed new companions, SGRA-capable or otherwise, on the Cartel Market at this point.

Quote: Originally Posted by markcymru
Also, I wouldn't expect the majority of players who focus on Flash-points etc to care much about SGRs. Why would they ? They're in a different segment. There's another segment, those who play the game for story etc, and I'll bet they would be very interested in SGRs.
That different segement you refer to is the overwhelming majority of the player-base. That is evident both in the superintending concern Bioware places on their satiation at every patch and new piece of content as well as the general dismissal threads such as this one have receievd. The only group more ignored than the SGRA community it seems are the poor fools on the APAC servers. At least SGRA proponents are getting something.

Though I doubt much more in the near future, or 2013 for that matter.

Also, how are people who are dedicated to the story-mode of the game (presumably leveling alts) going to engage in that endeavor with SGRA unless Bioware develops class-specific SGRA-capable male and female companions?

Which returns me to my original question.
If Bioware lacked the funding to extend class-specific missions in Makeb, what makes any of us think they are going to dedicate the time and resources to create class-specific SGRA companions that will fit the current 1-50?

Quote: Originally Posted by marksymru
BioWare seems to want to satisfy both segments, and that's fine by me -- but apparently not fine by you
My argument has never once been that SGRA should not be included in the game.
That is the caricatured assumption individuals assume simply because I find the manner of the SGRA proponents' interactions with their opponents more than a little distasteful.

On the other hand I have no illusions that SW:TOR's primary player base engages in one of three activities:
1) Endgame PVE
2) Endgame PVP
3) Alt Leveling

Considering that SGRAs are highly unlikely to be included for existing leveling content and have been confirmed not to be in the current Makeb patch content I would make two arguments:

1) SGRA proponents who value them above the more basic tripartite content represent a miniscule portion of the population. Most individuals would be neutral on their inclusion and would likely pass over them without much thought.

2) SGRA flirt-options in Makeb are little more than a gesture of good faith to this vocal community and amount to no more than an empty future promise not too unlike Guild content features.

This game did not lose a million subscriptions because SGRAs were not included and I doubt we will gain any net subscriptions if they ever are actually included.

I would prefer Bioware spend its time and my money on firming up its principle three components of gameplay and move on to special interest group concerns such as SGRA, SSSP, Guild concerns, mini-games after a major PVP-Balance Patch, and Optimization Patch, and maybe a new look at crafting.

After that they should move on to including these extraneous pieces into the game, ideally in mini-content patches on a regular basis.

SGRA is not a priority to a vast majority of the player-base, nor should it be, I would argue, a priority to Bioware at this moment.

Wittand's Avatar


Wittand
01.11.2013 , 09:45 PM | #444
Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
It is not petitio principii simply because you disagree with the premise.
If that is the tactic you wish to employ in order to debate the burden of proof will shift to you in the validation of your premise.

Which if I am not mistaken, is either that 1) It's your turn or 2) you represent a larger portion of the community than anyone realizes. Neither of which I find satisfying from an epistemological point of view.

I offer as evidence the innumerable threads dominating the more travelled forums (General and PVP) demonstrating a clear concern on the part of the player-base concerning PVP-Balance and Bug Fix/Optimization cycles.
Feedback BioWare received from other games shows that more people than usually believed will pursue a SGRA. Also several times as many posts have been written in favor of SGRAs than even mentioned PvP. One SGRA thread has always been open since years before launch and tens of thousand post have been written in those threads.
Quote:
Also, how are people who are dedicated to the story-mode of the game (presumably leveling alts) going to engage in that endeavor with SGRA unless Bioware develops class-specific SGRA-capable male and female companions?

Which returns me to my original question.
If Bioware lacked the funding to extend class-specific missions in Makeb, what makes any of us think they are going to dedicate the time and resources to create class-specific SGRA companions that will fit the current 1-50?
Hall Hood already confirmed via twitter that one of the things that is on the work schedule for the writers is to revisit the leveling contend and make adjustments for the inconsistencies caused by the legacy system.
Altering some of the class specific flirts and romances at the same time would hardly cause extra work or cost.
Quote:
My argument has never once been that SGRA should not be included in the game.
That is the caricatured assumption individuals assume simply because I find the manner of the SGRA proponents' interactions with their opponents more than a little distasteful.

On the other hand I have no illusions that SW:TOR's primary player base engages in one of three activities:
1) Endgame PVE
2) Endgame PVP
3) Alt Leveling

Considering that SGRAs are highly unlikely to be included for existing leveling content and have been confirmed not to be in the current Makeb patch content I would make two arguments:

1) SGRA proponents who value them above the more basic tripartite content represent a miniscule portion of the population. Most individuals would be neutral on their inclusion and would likely pass over them without much thought.

2) SGRA flirt-options in Makeb are little more than a gesture of good faith to this vocal community and amount to no more than an empty future promise not too unlike Guild content features.

This game did not lose a million subscriptions because SGRAs were not included and I doubt we will gain any net subscriptions if they ever are actually included.

I would prefer Bioware spend its time and my money on firming up its principle three components of gameplay and move on to special interest group concerns such as SGRA, SSSP, Guild concerns, mini-games after a major PVP-Balance Patch, and Optimization Patch, and maybe a new look at crafting.

After that they should move on to including these extraneous pieces into the game, ideally in mini-content patches on a regular basis.

SGRA is not a priority to a vast majority of the player-base, nor should it be, I would argue, a priority to Bioware at this moment.
SGRA´s head under point 3 don´t they ? Seems to me that another possible romance is a rather good reason to level an alt of the same class. Not to mention that even though I personally don´t do PvP, I hope, for the sake of those who like that sort of thing, that PvP is not programmed by the story writers or animators. So there should be next to no overlap between working on both features.

-IceHawk-'s Avatar


-IceHawk-
01.11.2013 , 09:49 PM | #445
A quick response for reference: This thread, which includes the current consolidation of numerous SGRA threads, has approximately 450 posts and some 15,000 views.

The current Merc-DPS thread in the PVP-Forums has over 700 posts and 40,000 views.

Both groups have retained complaint/issue threads basically from launch.

Food for thought.

-IceHawk-'s Avatar


-IceHawk-
01.11.2013 , 10:00 PM | #446
Quote: Originally Posted by Wittand
Feedback BioWare received from other games shows that more people than usually believed will pursue a SGRA. Also several times as many posts have been written in favor of SGRAs than even mentioned PvP. One SGRA thread has always been open since years before launch and tens of thousand post have been written in those threads.
I have no doubt a good sized portion of the community would experiment with the SGRA options once included. New content tends to get play.

Whether or not said content represents a significant demand of a critical mass of the player-base is a different story.

As far as the PVP versus SGRA thread issue.
Serious question, do you go to the PVP forums at all?

Threads discussing Bubble Sorcs hit over 500 replies in a weekend, easily matching the size of the current SGRA thread here.

They get considerably more views as well.

Quote: Originally Posted by Wittand
Hall Hood already confirmed via twitter that one of the things that is on the work schedule for the writers is to revisit the leveling contend and make adjustments for the inconsistencies caused by the legacy system.
Altering some of the class specific flirts and romances at the same time would hardly cause extra work or cost.
Bioware has already stated it was not going to alter current companions to include SGRA options a number of times if I am not mistaken, so for the time being absence of direct evidence that this is going to happen reduces this to little more than wishful thinking.

Quote: Originally Posted by Wittand
SGRA´s head under point 3 don´t they ? Seems to me that another possible romance is a rather good reason to level an alt of the same class. Not to mention that even though I personally don´t do PvP, I hope, for the sake of those who like that sort of thing, that PvP is not programmed by the story writers or animators. So there should be next to no overlap between working on both features.
Ask the people who post in the balance threads and they might assume it is the writers doing the balance coding. Anything else is just a scary thought.

Ideally SGRA's would fall under Alt-Leveling (point #3) as a minor component to an otherwise vast pursuit that involves everything from a desire to Role-Play with Romance Companions to Class Story Arcs, World Flash Points, Cooperative-Story Play, et al.

Wittand's Avatar


Wittand
01.11.2013 , 10:04 PM | #447
Another morsel of information to serve as brain fodder.

The current SGRA thread is at post 5192 (not counting all the deleted posts). The three (or four) thread that preceded it were closed after reaching post 1000, as it was the rule those days. Equaly the 23 threads (I think hard to be sure after all that time) dealing with SGRAs all were closed after 1000 posts. So even without counting all the deleted posts, the threads that got closed after a mere ten pages because a bigger thread dealing with this topic was open, ... , we easily come to over 30,000 posts concerning this topic spanning several years back.

-IceHawk-'s Avatar


-IceHawk-
01.11.2013 , 10:32 PM | #448
Quote: Originally Posted by Wittand View Post
Another morsel of information to serve as brain fodder.

The current SGRA thread is at post 5192 (not counting all the deleted posts). The three (or four) thread that preceded it were closed after reaching post 1000, as it was the rule those days. Equaly the 23 threads (I think hard to be sure after all that time) dealing with SGRAs all were closed after 1000 posts. So even without counting all the deleted posts, the threads that got closed after a mere ten pages because a bigger thread dealing with this topic was open, ... , we easily come to over 30,000 posts concerning this topic spanning several years back.
So your argument is that SGRAs are a concern for a massive portion of the community because, reaching back to launch, you estimate some 30,000 posts?

There are nearly 330,000 posts on these forums!

That is roughly 9% of all posts on these forums dedicated to a discussion of SGRA, let alone positive support.

I know that SGRA is a major concern of this particular community.

However, you just quantified the degree of your minority status.

Wittand's Avatar


Wittand
01.11.2013 , 10:38 PM | #449
Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
So your argument is that SGRAs are a concern for a massive portion of the community because, reaching back to launch, you estimate some 30,000 posts?

There are nearly 330,000 posts on these forums!

That is roughly 9% of all posts on these forums dedicated to a discussion of SGRA, let alone positive support.

I know that SGRA is a major concern of this particular community.

However, you just quantified the degree of your minority status.
And how many post are there about PvP ? Operations ? Apac server mergers ?

By your logic every topic is only important to a small minority and SGRAs is important to the biggest minority.
Or do you know any other topic that created as many posts for such a long time?

-IceHawk-'s Avatar


-IceHawk-
01.11.2013 , 10:47 PM | #450
The current APAC thread is at some 1,800 posts and is closing in on 115,000 views.
The PVP-Forums carry threads that break 500 and 1,000 posts and 20,000 to 30,000 views in days sometimes.

Taken as an aggregate PVP-Concerns come in at 40,000 posts and 720,0000 views.
SGRA posts (if this thread is any indication) would be 30,000 posts and 450,000 views.

Which concern is garnering more attention from the community?
By posts PVP is 133% of SGRA.
By views PVP is 160% of SGRA.

Quote: Originally Posted by Wittand
By your logic every topic is only important to a small minority and SGRAs is important to the biggest minority. Or do you know any other topic that created as many posts for such a long time?
Actually, the active SGRA thread is outnumbered considerably by the APAC fellows, the Merc Community over in PVP, and the "did you buy the expansion" discussion over in General.

The Death of the Class Story thread that petered out around 200 posts still has more views than the currently active SGRA thread.

This community is not as large as it thinks it is.

If it were the financial benefit of the addition of SGRA would likely have compelled something far more intense from Bioware than a token flirt option.