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Too Much Damage? What?


IAmViiOLENT's Avatar


IAmViiOLENT
01.10.2013 , 06:10 PM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by Hovergame View Post
Hmmm. you lost your credibility when you said "highest DPS on my server". did you checed against EVEY SINGLE PLAYER on your server (both sides) ?

With my Shadow, Rakata Hilt, 2 DG piece + 2 Armoring (Wrist and Waist), my logs are saying that I can be around 2K, 2.2K TPS without taunting. I wouldn't be so surprised if a better Shadow can reach 3K TPS within the first 30s of the fight, even if he needs to use a DPS relic.

And by the way, I'd really like to see a log with more than 3K TPS (from your DPS, of course) over 30s
Our server runs a pve dps competition, I'm currently on top and on torparses' statistics I'm the top single target dps for the server in raid, and one of the top ones in the world. As for maintaining 3k tps as a tank, it's not mathematically possible without the use of taunts as per class mechanics. My point here, is that if your dps aren't pulling; they're not very good. Or you have no burst specs. Either or. If there is such a thing as a tank that has a threat opener of over 6.5k that then falls off to 3kish, I will personally bow to them, but realistically; that's just not possible.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.10.2013 , 06:14 PM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by arkitip View Post
Theorycrafting isn't the same as performance. There are people out there that have grouped/guilded with him and know exactly what he can and can't do.
The only time you ever "pulled threat" off of me on a boss was HM LI where you misinterpreted the boss target swapping for Experimental Cannon as actually gaining threat. I didn't use Taunt a single time that fight and somehow managed to get back threat within seconds of you "stealing aggro" from me both times that it happened. If you *had* actually stolen threat from me, it would've taken longer than 3 seconds to actually accomplish it. If it were a question of raw threat generation and Force Cloak dropping you to zero, even without doing any further damage, it would have taken longer than 45 seconds for you to actually generate sufficient threat to pull said threat *again* since it occurred more than a minute into the fight.

Just because you don't know what's going on with the target's threat doesn't mean that I don't.

Also, it's important to not that a tank doesn't actually have to generate more TPS than their DPS. Because of the 130% requirement to steal threat (assuming people don't just stand around inside the target's model), a tank only needs to manage 77% of the TPS as everyone else in order to not lose aggro once it's been gained. As such, if you're pulling 4k burst DPS, a tank only needs to manage 3.1k TPS to not lose threat (though I *highly* doubt you're actually pulling 4k DPS for anything longer than a 1-2 consecutive GCDs) for that burst phase. When I drop my FP + TkT, I'm pulling 3.1k TPS so, even if you *are* managing to dump out massive DPS in that short period of time, I would still be able to keep it off of you.
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Ephesia's Avatar


Ephesia
01.10.2013 , 06:23 PM | #63
even a 500 - 650 dps tank with smart usage of taunts can keep threat off. The only troubles would be at the start, give them a little leeway and then should have no problems.

Never had myself even tho I never stacked str, barely 1700 strength with defense spec.
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Hovergame's Avatar


Hovergame
01.10.2013 , 06:45 PM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by IAmViiOLENT View Post
Our server runs a pve dps competition, I'm currently on top and on torparses' statistics I'm the top single target dps for the server in raid, and one of the top ones in the world. As for maintaining 3k tps as a tank, it's not mathematically possible without the use of taunts as per class mechanics. My point here, is that if your dps aren't pulling; they're not very good. Or you have no burst specs. Either or. If there is such a thing as a tank that has a threat opener of over 6.5k that then falls off to 3kish, I will personally bow to them, but realistically; that's just not possible.
Ok, let's play.
Here is your best DPS on Firebrand and Stormcaller on Torparse
Let's read it :
After 10s, you had a DPS of 2549. Far from 3K+. then, you used your stealth to reduce aggro. After 30s, you were close of 2K DPS. Still very far from 3K+.

One one of your last log, your highest DPS is 2683, after 8 seconds. Still not 3K, and not even close of 6.5K. after 30s, a bit less than 2.3K. Still far from 3K. Even without guard, if you don't take damage withing the first 30s, in that fight, a god shadow can keep the boss without taunt.

Your "legend" about 6K DPS is funny. And i''ll add, since you like to taunt : if your tank taunts only when the boss targets someone else, he isn't very good.

IAmViiOLENT's Avatar


IAmViiOLENT
01.10.2013 , 06:48 PM | #65
I will give you that, we do have a sin tank in guild that is truly difficult for me to pull from, but I do still pull at least once or twice a pull. Also, as carnage those 4.5s burst windows do average out to being half of your damage in the spec. Looking at a DPS over time chart, you can see upwards of 4k bursts at every CD of it. Of course, if their is no reason for me to keep force camo, I'll use it just before a big part of my rotation; so that A) I won't pull, and B) if I do; I don't use it and the tank then taunts it from me and gains absolutely 0 threat.

IAmViiOLENT's Avatar


IAmViiOLENT
01.10.2013 , 07:30 PM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by Hovergame View Post
Ok, let's play.
Here is your best DPS on Firebrand and Stormcaller on Torparse
Let's read it :
After 10s, you had a DPS of 2549. Far from 3K+. then, you used your stealth to reduce aggro. After 30s, you were close of 2K DPS. Still very far from 3K+.

One one of your last log, your highest DPS is 2683, after 8 seconds. Still not 3K, and not even close of 6.5K. after 30s, a bit less than 2.3K. Still far from 3K. Even without guard, if you don't take damage withing the first 30s, in that fight, a god shadow can keep the boss without taunt.

Your "legend" about 6K DPS is funny. And i''ll add, since you like to taunt : if your tank taunts only when the boss targets someone else, he isn't very good.
Looking at that log, it was from me being in full 61's, the week I came back to the game and my guild gave me a run in NiM EC.

Here's what my first 20s in full 63's, even on a ****** parse looks like.
http://www.torparse.com/a/96305/time...0/Damage+Dealt

Notice the nearly 2k difference on my ravage crit, and scream crit? Little bit of difference.

If a tank can maintain 2.6k tps, after 20s without using DPS relics, or some ridiculousness like that, Ill bite. if a tank can prove that with a log, I will concede and agree that they are the best tank to play any MMO ever; as I've yet to see one that can hold threat during that 20s without a taunt.


Also, just for *****; I want you to look at this. This is from my guilds down of NiM F&S this week.
http://www.torparse.com/a/94469/time...0/Damage+Dealt
I start the pull with the WRONG form, completely stop doing anything 10s into the pull swap form; and end the fight with 1956 dps. This would put me in the top 5 for that boss, with a huge stop like that. The only reason it wont, is as you can see by clicking on the unedited version of the pull in torparse, it registered me as staying in combat with the next pull of trash after the boss (My combat log does occasionally glitch out).

arkitip's Avatar


arkitip
01.10.2013 , 07:33 PM | #67
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
The only time you ever "pulled threat" off of me on a boss was HM LI where you misinterpreted the boss target swapping for Experimental Cannon as actually gaining threat. I didn't use Taunt a single time that fight and somehow managed to get back threat within seconds of you "stealing aggro" from me both times that it happened. If you *had* actually stolen threat from me, it would've taken longer than 3 seconds to actually accomplish it. If it were a question of raw threat generation and Force Cloak dropping you to zero, even without doing any further damage, it would have taken longer than 45 seconds for you to actually generate sufficient threat to pull said threat *again* since it occurred more than a minute into the fight.

Just because you don't know what's going on with the target's threat doesn't mean that I don't.

Also, it's important to not that a tank doesn't actually have to generate more TPS than their DPS. Because of the 130% requirement to steal threat (assuming people don't just stand around inside the target's model), a tank only needs to manage 77% of the TPS as everyone else in order to not lose aggro once it's been gained. As such, if you're pulling 4k burst DPS, a tank only needs to manage 3.1k TPS to not lose threat (though I *highly* doubt you're actually pulling 4k DPS for anything longer than a 1-2 consecutive GCDs) for that burst phase. When I drop my FP + TkT, I'm pulling 3.1k TPS so, even if you *are* managing to dump out massive DPS in that short period of time, I would still be able to keep it off of you.
It has nothing to do with the times I may or may not have pulled threat from you, it has to do with the times I never even got the chance to because we would bring other tanks over you for progression content.

Hovergame's Avatar


Hovergame
01.10.2013 , 08:39 PM | #68
Quote: Originally Posted by IAmViiOLENT View Post
Looking at that log, it was from me being in full 61's, the week I came back to the game and my guild gave me a run in NiM EC.

Here's what my first 20s in full 63's, even on a ****** parse looks like.
http://www.torparse.com/a/96305/time...0/Damage+Dealt
Dummy ---> fail. Do you often starts a REAL fight with Ravage within the first second ?

Quote:
Notice the nearly 2k difference on my ravage crit, and scream crit? Little bit of difference.

If a tank can maintain 2.6k tps, after 20s without using DPS relics, or some ridiculousness like that, Ill bite. if a tank can prove that with a log, I will concede and agree that they are the best tank to play any MMO ever; as I've yet to see one that can hold threat during that 20s without a taunt.


Also, just for *****; I want you to look at this. This is from my guilds down of NiM F&S this week.
http://www.torparse.com/a/94469/time...0/Damage+Dealt
I start the pull with the WRONG form, completely stop doing anything 10s into the pull swap form; and end the fight with 1956 dps. This would put me in the top 5 for that boss, with a huge stop like that. The only reason it wont, is as you can see by clicking on the unedited version of the pull in torparse, it registered me as staying in combat with the next pull of trash after the boss (My combat log does occasionally glitch out).
2.6K over 20S ? You aren't even close of that. please, stop throwing stupid numbers, when your own logs doesn't prove them. Let's check what your log REALLY says :

-Your highest TPs is 1680. Without guard, you'd be at 2240. Not even close of 3K. I wouldn't be surprised if a decent shadow tank can reach that score, I'm close with only 4 armorings 27, 2 mods 27, 2 enhancements 27 and one hilt 25, without using a DPS relic.
-To take aggro, you need to reach 110% of the threat generated by the tank (110% for melee, 130% for distance, Kitru should confirm). In fact, the tank only needs 2037 TPS to keep the aggro, and I can do that in a good run, without any taunt.

What your log says is simple : if I was the tank, in a good run, Stormcaller would have stayed on me for the whole fight, without using any taunt. That's EXACTLY what your taunt says. And don't forget that your numbers about 3K+ TPS (who was lowered to 2.6K+) is still far from the truth.

Try again

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.10.2013 , 10:33 PM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by arkitip View Post
It has nothing to do with the times I may or may not have pulled threat from you, it has to do with the times I never even got the chance to because we would bring other tanks over you for progression content.
The personal problems some people may have with me coupled with the fact that said guild couldn't even find people to raid in the first place aren't really a legitimate contention here. You didn't take me because I'm a monumental *******, not because I'm a bad tank (for those those scant few runs that actually occurred when I was with you guys). It's completely beside the point anyways.
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Kitru
01.10.2013 , 10:37 PM | #70
Quote: Originally Posted by Hovergame View Post
(110% for melee, 130% for distance, Kitru should confirm)
It's 110% only if you're within 4m of the center of the target's model. Most raid bosses have models substantially larger than 4m so the range listed in the UI isn't really applicable. For example, the raid dummy has a model radius of ~1.24m and it's got a "standard" model size for small enemies. As long as you're DPSing and the listed range is ~3m or more, you're pretty much guaranteed to be considered "ranged" for threat purposes. Honestly, as long as the DPS isn't standing *inside* the target's model, they should be in the 130% threat required range for Ops bosses.
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Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
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