Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

What you like to see in the new Ops

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
01.04.2013 , 05:58 PM | #11
So in terms of mechanics, there are already a lot of good ideas here (see: Kitru). For example, I've often thought that the Infernal Council should be part of the Soa fight, rather than a separate loot piñata. Run backs and load screens are a really annoying issue with current content, particularly for Firebrand & Stormcaller and Kephess in NiM EC. Endless trash pulls are also super annoying, but I think TfB did a really good job here, so I'll assume Bioware has already learned this point.

In general, I think Bioware has been doing an excellent job with encounters designed post-launch. KP was still slightly shaky, but all evidence suggests it was designed prior to launch and pushed back for scheduling reasons. EC and Lost Island were a home run, and TfB was a more than ample encore (provided the last boss is ever fixed). I never thought I'd say this, but I actually have some faith in Bioware's ability to design an engaging and balanced encounter. I would like to see them pay closer attention to how some mechanics interact with certain specs (e.g. TfB Kephess and shadow/assassin tanks, or the Data Cores and any-aoe-spec-ever), but these are livable issues.

Oh, I will say that I still believe pre-nerf HM Mentor is a fantastic boss, and easily the best launch boss (including operations). I always thought D7 would have made a much better operation than flashpoint.

Here's what I think the most important things are, in order:
  • Releasing more content at a steady clip. I *cannot* emphasize this one enough. As of right now, the serious progression raiders are maxed on gear and are feeling pretty comfortable about farming anything short of 16 man NiM EC. I'll give it exactly a month before we start seeing the player base bleeding away again if Bioware doesn't release a new raid or difficulty mode before that time.
  • New Flashpoints. I may not be a "take vacation time to raid 18 hours a day" progression raider, but I'm fairly serious and in a fairly serious group. Despite this fact, I don't want to see *just* 8/16 man raids going forward. I still believe that LI HM is some of the best content in the game. The fact that even radically over-geared groups are under serious threat of wiping *repeatedly* on its bosses is a testament to how well-designed the mechanics are. The rewards are disproportionate, but who cares? We don't spend all our time raiding with an ops group. More 4 man content of this caliber would be *very much* appreciated. If I could get a flashpoint at the challenge level of LI HM but tuned for augmented Dread Guard rather than Tionese gear, I would be *begging* Bioware to take my Cartel Coins.
  • Less "Side Show" Story Themes. With the launch of Makeb, I have very little hope for this one. Did you know that the Dread Guard were the first ops bosses to use a lightsaber? (I don't count the Infernal Council as a real boss) So much for Star Wars… I want to walk into the next operation and be fighting a pitched battle against the Empire. When I walk into the same op on my Imp alts, I want to be fighting the Republic. Same bosses, same mechanics, just reskin everything. Red lightsabers instead of blue/green.
  • Slower Crafter Progression Curve. Right now, everyone is Dread Guard geared. Even people who have never set foot in HM TfB. The fact that crafters were able to cover all possible mods on pretty much every server within just 2 months suggests that things are moving a bit too fast. I also don't like how this incentivizes REing everything, and by extension, pushing all your raiders to grind alts with Cybertech and Artifice. Maybe reducing the RE chance on top-tier mods? Fixing the bug where crafted mods can be RE'd would also help. I'm sure not everyone agrees with this idea, but I'd really like to see top-end raid gear be, I don't know, exclusive to those who've earned it. The problem with this is it would become nearly impossible for even top-tier raiders to acquire enough mods to fix the horrid itemization on Bioware's stock gear sets.

That's my wishlist. Of all of that, I really care most about the first two (especially the first one). I'll leave the mechanics design to Bioware, since they've demonstrated exemplary skill here in recent content.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

Eshmael's Avatar


Eshmael
01.04.2013 , 07:09 PM | #12
SpaceCombat as part of a bossfight. If team space fails it gets harder for the "groundcrew".
This would be the absolute SW feeling.

Caeduz's Avatar


Caeduz
01.04.2013 , 09:46 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by theblaznee View Post
A "hub and spoke" raid of 6-10 bosses.. Minimal but challenging trash leading to 2-4 bossfights pr. "spoke".

Crafting encounters.

More fights requiring awareness and class abilities instead of hard dps checks and simple tank swaps.
This is a slippery slope for me as I DO NOT want to see the Op leader/guild being FORCE to take a crtain advance class., saying that i don't mind them having an encounter that require a certain role e.g. a RDPS/MDPS; where this is already being use in NM EC with the exploding add's at the tank.

Also, I like to see some kind of legendary drop now., perhaps a drop from the final boss in a 8-10 bosses op

Damastes's Avatar


Damastes
01.04.2013 , 11:57 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Infernal Council was interesting when I first saw it, but I honestly felt that it was a bit of a let down when I actually did it. The enemies are so easy, even on HM and NiM, that it's pretty much just free loot.
Oh, no doubt. There's a reason I want them to keep "experimenting," and that's because their first iteration of a solo experience in a raid leaves much to be desired. I can see ways in which it could improve, so I want to encourage such improvement--rather than dropping the whole concept. As for the unquoted part of that paragraph: I'm not ignoring your suggestion out of rudeness or a belief that it's a bad suggestion (it's certainly not), but because it would remove the only solo experience in a raid in the game, which is counter to my desires

Quote:
Everyone fighting their own target seems like it would be epic, but, in a game where the holy trinity of roles exists, it's just kind of a let down, especially since it's not really apt to force people into challenging objectives outside of their chosen role (e.g. healers often heal because they don't like DPS, not to mention how hard that fight makes it on positional DPS). However, it *would* be interesting and apt to see a piece of content where you free pairs of bosses, one of which is allied with you (I imagine it being one Jedi and one Sith in each pair, their allegiance swapping based upon which faction you are for the raid but each boss being functionally identical), that are in eternal stalemate and need the help of a specific role in order to win: for tanks, you have to actually taunt the enemy boss and survive it while the ally boss heals you and does some damage; healers have to heal their boss through a lot of damage, forcing them to put out a certain minimum amount of heals/sec; and DPS have to beat down and interrupt their enemy boss before their ally succumbs to his wounds which can't be healed thanks to a trauma-type debuff. Each solo "boss" would require the explicit functionality of the chosen role while still maintaining solo performance requirements and feeling suitably epic (you're coming to the aid of an amazingly powerful ur-Jedi or ur-Sith and finally ending the eons old battle they've been carrying on. It would be like breaking Captain America and Red Skull out of their imprisonment just to help Cappy beat the crap out of Red Skull in their final dramatic confrontation.
To be honest, it's less about it being "epic," for me, and more about providing variety. It also adds another dimension of competence to raid progression: You can't be carried through a solo sequence, in other words.

I read your first sentence, with its objection, and was going to suggest something along the lines of what came after it as a response When I mentioned a "gauntlet," I basically had in mind the idea of creating those gauntlets based on what your role is. DPS would probably be tasked with wading through swarms of weak mobs (with a time limit). Healers might be tasked with keeping an NPC alive through a similar situation. We already have quests that allow us to do this. What I can't recall is if it's currently in game for a non-companion to heal a tank. But that shouldn't be too difficult to implement. Either way, I like your idea of two bosses, and would actually love it even more if it came at the end of a gauntlet. I want something challenging, damn it!

Quote:
The problem I can see with that is that is sounds more like a single continuous fight rather than 2 distinctly different boss fights. Using your example, the Infernal Council would be phase 1 of Soa wherein, if someone failed to kill their council member before Soa freed himself (the timer on his stasis break would need to be lengthened), you would have to deal with said Council member who has been suped up by Soa's aura/battle meditation whatever (so that he's a threat to the entire raid rather than just the one player) while taking care of phase 1 Soa. Honestly, I think a fight like that would be quite kewl, especially if the solo fights were actually challenging enough that only the best groups can manage to get through p1 with all of their council members dead and most have to deal with a 1-2 council member p2, but it wouldn't work as separate bosses.
My example was really just to illustrate a situation where your failure at a solo encounter would have consequences. Everyone knows the fights in question, so it's fairly easy to imagine the change. I definitely wasn't presenting it as a fully-realized idea. That being said, I did envision the Council and Soa fights being merged into one. Those two fights have always felt like they should be connected in some fashion--at least to me. And yes, in the case of a failure to kill the Council member, the entire raid would have to handle a better version of that mob in the main Soa encounter. Random thought: It could be presented as a DPS race during the drop phase. You jump to a platform and can jump no further until you finish him off. Actually, ignoring that thought, it could also be used to make an off tank actually, well, important in EV.

You know, I just noticed a flaw with the whole Council/Soa idea: In its present state, it requires failure to make the current fight more interesting. As you said, only the best groups would kill all of the council members, but then they would be left with a boring "final" phase that we've all seen ad nauseam Will have to think on that.

Quote:
If the quality of how you cleared one boss affects how a future boss behaves, how do you deal with it saving said clear and how do you deal with conflicting saves if it does save said clear? If it's saved as a buff applied to the boss in the given phase, players could just reset the phase while preserving their boss kill and not having to bother with the "harder" difficulty. If the boss kills *remove* a buff that the boss has naturally, when the phase resets naturally (such as when a raid group calls it a night and comes back later or there are some phase access problems and it has to be bounced around an reset to let someone in, which happens often enough to be an issue), you're forcing people that did a high quality clear to do the boss at the same difficulty as those that did it with a low quality clear unless you want to force them to repeat their prior performance, only this time without actually getting a reward for it (which could get very annoying if the content is actually challenging, not to mention that it gives groups a chance to just keep trying over and over again until they get a "good" clear of the boss in order to prep for the final boss). If it is saved to their weekly progression on their character, what about conflicts between characters? If one person has a perfect clear and another has a mediocre one, does everyone else get to ride the coattails of the perfect clear even though they had mediocre performance or does the perfect clear get penalized for running with someone with a mediocre clear by having it default to the worst performance or would it just use the leader's clear, which would mean that the person with the best clear becomes leader and starts the phase and the leader spot gets passed back, which amounts to the same thing as the first?
While I was envisioning the example itself as a single encounter, let's assume it's two (Council is separate from Soa), because it could certainly arise as an issue with further implementations of the concept. Let me know if I've misunderstood the problem.

I'd say one possibility is to tie the encounter to a debuff on the players (the ones that failed) that won't wear off until either the operation is completed, or Tuesday comes around. The problem that arises then is it has the possibility of making it very difficult for that player to get into another operation to finish the encounter (as, yes, his debuff--and anyone else with the debuff--would determine the difficulty of the encounter)--at least until the debuff is removed. I'm not entirely sure I'm against that situation, to be honest. You failed, and your failure will stick with you for a time, but it might also work to encourage you to do better in the future. Good people won't treat you poorly over it, and bad people will treat you badly over it, which is exactly the current state of affairs. Wouldn't mind other thoughts on it, though

Quote:
It's a Pandora's box of problems.
No doubt! And difficult problems are always worth solving, especially if [potential] fun comes with the solution

ladwar's Avatar


ladwar
01.05.2013 , 02:11 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Infalliable View Post
speeders that actually take you to a boss, rather than to a point after the previous one with a long run back to the next one.

A "medic station" to rez inside of the instances (at the start?).
dear god this^ this is really what i want.

theblaznee's Avatar


theblaznee
01.05.2013 , 04:40 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Caeduz View Post
This is a slippery slope for me as I DO NOT want to see the Op leader/guild being FORCE to take a crtain advance class., saying that i don't mind them having an encounter that require a certain role e.g. a RDPS/MDPS; where this is already being use in NM EC with the exploding add's at the tank.

Also, I like to see some kind of legendary drop now., perhaps a drop from the final boss in a 8-10 bosses op
That's the balancing act that bioware needs to be aware of, but as the game is today I don't foresee any problems really. We only have 1 resource pool to "fight against", and not HP, Stamina and Mana which abilites can tie in to.

What could be done with regards to utilizing class abilities rather than the current focus on mdps/rdps, could be something like a 3 second interrupt cyclus, 4 second heal cleans cyclus, stealth mechanics forcing either stealth scan or knockbacks to "get out of stealth", class specific solo encounters - think like a mind trap which presents the trapped player with an enemy specific to their AC - or even the tree they have the most points in (to work with classes that have both heal/tank and dps in an AC).

They have to be REALLY careful about designing encounters that need 1 specific tank type like Shadow w. resilience, or mechanics relying on a Sentinel w. speedbuff or Gunslinger with its shield. It's fine that those make an encounter marginally easier, but the fight shouldn't be MUCH harder without them..
Don't mistake my silence for ignorance, my calmness for acceptance or my kindness for weakness!

Fight hard, die well!

Caeduz's Avatar


Caeduz
01.05.2013 , 05:06 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by theblaznee View Post
That's the balancing act that bioware needs to be aware of, but as the game is today I don't foresee any problems really. We only have 1 resource pool to "fight against", and not HP, Stamina and Mana which abilites can tie in to.

What could be done with regards to utilizing class abilities rather than the current focus on mdps/rdps, could be something like a 3 second interrupt cyclus, 4 second heal cleans cyclus, stealth mechanics forcing either stealth scan or knockbacks to "get out of stealth", class specific solo encounters - think like a mind trap which presents the trapped player with an enemy specific to their AC - or even the tree they have the most points in (to work with classes that have both heal/tank and dps in an AC).

They have to be REALLY careful about designing encounters that need 1 specific tank type like Shadow w. resilience, or mechanics relying on a Sentinel w. speedbuff or Gunslinger with its shield. It's fine that those make an encounter marginally easier, but the fight shouldn't be MUCH harder without them..

Nod! I see your point, would love to see an encounter that "changes" to accommodate the composite of the group going in rather than the group having to modify to suit the encounter.

The Dev already mention that they're committed to having some kind of puzzle boss., an idea I think maybe cool is imagine a game of checkers with the eight players as the pieces as you move forward your encounter the opposite piece that you have to "defeat" in a one on one encounter to progress where each of the opposition piece is tailored to essentially defeat the incoming group.

But before this can happen some balancing will need tobe done, which is promised for the expansion, so let see.

gabrielluigi's Avatar


gabrielluigi
01.06.2013 , 12:40 AM | #18
well, instead of a specific operation or boss encounter, i'd like to see some sort of practice station, (or operation) that had little to no incentive gear wise but allowed a player, or group of players, to practice a certain boss fight or mechanic without wasting a whole raid groups weekly lockout.

i remember when my Vanguard (first 50) started raiding ages ago and after only 3 weeks or so the only other tank in the group stopped showing up. so guess who had to step in with only seeing the fights a few times and barely any tionese / columi gear to main tank EV. i know it was SM but for a noob being responsible for all those freaking wipes on Soa just because i had NO idea where those stupid pillars were coming from was annoying as hell. (by the way i did figure out how to play eventually but it took longer than in should of, mostly because i only got to practice once a week)

i think this would shorten the learning curve a little and result in some better players who only need a chance, unfortunately it also requires dev time so other things we want would be put on hold.

AllisonBerryman's Avatar


AllisonBerryman
01.07.2013 , 01:50 PM | #19 This is the last staff post in this thread.  
Thanks for posting your constructive feedback, everyone! Keep up the good posts; we love to hear what you'd like to see in future content!

Arlon_Nabarlly's Avatar


Arlon_Nabarlly
01.07.2013 , 02:07 PM | #20
The medic station inside raid, better speeder locations, and less trash are all things I'd most like to see.

As far as the solo instance idea I do wish they would experiment with it some more. Things that I'd like to see them experiment with in it:
- The EV instance of this was just a DPS race, this makes sense for DPS, but not for tank and healers. Give a challenge that makes sense for all 3 of the classes. Maybe the tanks are force to tank for a group of NPCs and has to keep agro against them the whole time, or maybe they are put in a fight with several mobs where a single NPC has damage that heals the tank and tank has to keep this guy agroed on him while killing the others. Healers are pulled into to help heal an NPC (maybe one of the main characters in the class stories like Shan or a Council Member or something) or they fight a mob to which healing damages them and they have to kill that mob using healing abilities.
- Give some incentive or ability to win this among your raid group. Whoever is the first to achieve their goal gets a piece of loot automatically, no roll on it. This should probably be a title, pet, or mount and not a piece of gear. That way displaying the title/mount/pet would mean something rather than you bought it or won a random roll.
- Have an option to opt out of this encounter if it's not your groups cup of tea or have some people that you know will struggle with it at their gear level.
- Better option for helping low geared members with this type of encounter than EV had.
- If it's truly solo then it would be nice if one person messing up wasn't able to wipe the group, there should be a penalty for that one person only (no loot, including comms and gear, for that fight).