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Help needed with HM Writhing Horror


CountOryansen's Avatar


CountOryansen
01.04.2013 , 12:21 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Mavery View Post
If you are hitting an enrage, no matter which fight, it is always a DPS issue. Dummy DPS really doesn't help you here. A full compliment of logs will enable us to help you. But there are a few things I can add that help trouble shoot these issues:

1. Since you are hitting the enrage (5:45) this means you will have time to use Inspiration twice. Are you? In addition, are all 4 DPS in the same group so they all benefit from it?

2. Are all DPS using their adrenals on cooldowns (you'll be able to use them twice)?

3. Are all DPS using their click power relic and personal cooldowns on cooldown?

4. Is the non-active tank (once male is down, back on boss) focusing on DPS (stim switch if biochem, stance change)?

5. Are the DPS only giving the tank a couple second lead? I know some groups give upwards of 5-7 seconds, and that's too much of a DPS loss.

Once again, logs will help more than anything else. But it defiinately sounds like you have a significant DPS issue.
Thank you for your reply.
Indeed the issue is DPS output, but I want to know how.
The answer is yes to all except the stim/stance switch which I will employ since both tanks are biochem.
I wish I knew where our loss was, it would be so easy to figure out.

Count Dooku: It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force... but by our skills with a lightsaber.

CountOryansen's Avatar


CountOryansen
01.04.2013 , 12:23 PM | #22
Here is another question.

I have seen many different strats regarding dps splits.
Is the best one still all 4 on adds and than all 4 on male?
We also tried 4 on adds, 2 on boss 2 on male which gave us our best results at 12% ENRAGE.

I have seen others go 2 dps on boss at all times, 2 on adds than those 2 on boss, tank on male by himself.

What are others doing for this? Is everyone running 4 dps on adds than 4 on male than boss for all males?

Count Dooku: It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force... but by our skills with a lightsaber.

gabrielluigi's Avatar


gabrielluigi
01.04.2013 , 12:23 PM | #23
also make sure that you're hitting the enrage and not the 15% burn phase. you said you get him to about 13% and then he enrages so it might just be the burn phase. the first couple times we killed him we started falling quick during this phase and barely downed the boss. (the first time we actually wiped on the adds that spawn but managed to kill the boss) when he hit's 15% make sure you're dpsing the boss and not the adds. have your off tank (the one that happens to not be on the boss) taunt the adds and pop his def cooldowns to give your dps more time and make sure your healers still have force/energy at the end of the fight for this. so in short use a timer and if it's not the hard enrage just make sure you're handling the burn phase properly.

CountOryansen's Avatar


CountOryansen
01.04.2013 , 12:26 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by gabrielluigi View Post
also make sure that you're hitting the enrage and not the 15% burn phase. you said you get him to about 13% and then he enrages so it might just be the burn phase. the first couple times we killed him we started falling quick during this phase and barely downed the boss. (the first time we actually wiped on the adds that spawn but managed to kill the boss) when he hit's 15% make sure you're dpsing the boss and not the adds. have your off tank (the one that happens to not be on the boss) taunt the adds and pop his def cooldowns to give your dps more time and make sure your healers still have force/energy at the end of the fight for this. so in short use a timer and if it's not the hard enrage just make sure you're handling the burn phase properly.
thanks for your reply.

At 15% we are still working through the last bit of the third male and adds. The WH turns red and hard enrages.
This is confirmed by the buff in red "enrage 200% damage increase.
Again the loss is the dps somehow, but where? It's not gear.
Fine tuning and advanced mechanics me thinks.

Count Dooku: It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force... but by our skills with a lightsaber.

gabrielluigi's Avatar


gabrielluigi
01.04.2013 , 12:42 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by CountOryansen View Post
thanks for your reply.

At 15% we are still working through the last bit of the third male and adds. The WH turns red and hard enrages.
This is confirmed by the buff in red "enrage 200% damage increase.
Again the loss is the dps somehow, but where? It's not gear.
Fine tuning and advanced mechanics me thinks.
well then you are hitting the enrage. i would suggest putting everyone in MoX just to see what's going on and then having your top dps go in red circle after all other dps and top dps stays on boss no matter what. let your other 3 handle adds and jealous males. other than that are they keeping their debuffs up on the boss at all times? not using the right rotations is probably the only other thing it could be unless they just haven't optimized their gear yet. i remember with my sentinel i was trying to get him in BH as quick as possible and ended up with some pretty crappy stats until i started min/maxing. does your dps have to much acc / crit not enough power / surge? just something else to check.

Woetoo's Avatar


Woetoo
01.04.2013 , 12:50 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by CountOryansen View Post
To clarify, are you suggesting the 2 swap stat only until the second male...
Or doing the 2 on boss whole time 2 on 2 adds and male whole time?
The strat I laid out is only for the initial pull and then the first Jealous Male. After that, just revert back to doing whatever it is you are doing now.

The "2 on boss, 2 on adds" isn't really what I was getting at though. Not least because I can't know what your raid composition is. Mainly it's a "mDPS on the boss/jealous male, rDPS on the small adds as soon as they arrive at the red circle". I only mentioned 2+ ranged DPS on the adds - just in case your raid group was largely melee. *Someone* needs to attack the small adds, but if you have ranged people - it usually only needs 2 (in an 8man group) to AoE the small adds down.

The sequence of events would be something like this :-

  • Tank-A pull the Boss.
  • When Tank-A gets 2x stacks of incubation, Tank-B takes the boss. This is very early in the fight.
  • Tank-A moves towards the ranged DPS and when the 2x incubations stacks spawn 2x add - the ranged DPS kill them and return to the boss. mDPS could help, but then why bother?
  • After a while, a Jealous Male and a red circle will spawn. Ranged DPS kill the Jealous. The red circle is ignored.
  • When Tank-B reaches 9 stacks of the incubation debuff. Do a tank swap.
  • Almost immediately afterwards, the 2nd Jealous Male and associated circle spawn. Tank-B picks up the Jealous.
  • Your mDPS swap onto the Jealous too. rDPS can stay on the boss. That's up to you**.
  • Someone goes to stand near the red circle and wait for the 9x stacks of incubation on Tank-B to trigger. At which point the person next to the red circle goes and stands in it - attracting the adds that spawned. When the small adds reach the circle, the rDPS stop attacking the boss and AoE down the small adds.

After this, everything continues as normal. Tank swaps happen each time a new Jealous Male spawns.

** -- We split our rDPS and mDPS according to target. With mDPS focusing on the 2nd, 3rd and potentially 4th Jealous Males. rDPS killing the 1st Jealous Male only and all small adds when they reach the red circles. If you have lots of mDPS or lots of rDPS, then my description is only a guide, not an absolute.

Just because we do it that way doesn't mean you have to. If you want mDPS to attack the small adds in the circle - fine. If you want rDPS to attack the Jealous - also fine.

We do it this way so that people are switching targets less and mDPS aren't spending more time than necessary running around. Reducing time lost target switching and moving are both ways to increase overall DPS.


As someone else points out, this only helps with this boss and only if you're consistently struggling with the enrage. There will come a point where you no longer need to do the boss this way and you can go back to doing "normal" tank swaps whenever a Jealous Male spawns. Not least, because this way is clunky and you'll need a higher level of DPS to kill the other bosses in TFB HM anyway.

I'm intrigued by the 1800+ DPS mentioned. That's not unreasonable given the amount of AoE involved. However, just in case it's linked to why you are hitting the enrage timer... I'll point out that you should only ever be getting the small adds to AoE down while a red circle is present. If you are getting adds to AoE more often, then it's likely you are doing tank swaps (or the tank is losing aggro/dying) too often.

Hope that clears up my advice and why it might work for you.

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crazyBE's Avatar


crazyBE
01.04.2013 , 03:07 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Mavery View Post
If you are hitting an enrage, no matter which fight, it is always a DPS issue. Dummy DPS really doesn't help you here. A full compliment of logs will enable us to help you. But there are a few things I can add that help trouble shoot these issues:

1. Since you are hitting the enrage (5:45) this means you will have time to use Inspiration twice. Are you? In addition, are all 4 DPS in the same group so they all benefit from it?

2. Are all DPS using their adrenals on cooldowns (you'll be able to use them twice)?

3. Are all DPS using their click power relic and personal cooldowns on cooldown?

4. Is the non-active tank (once male is down, back on boss) focusing on DPS (stim switch if biochem, stance change)?

5. Are the DPS only giving the tank a couple second lead? I know some groups give upwards of 5-7 seconds, and that's too much of a DPS loss.

Once again, logs will help more than anything else. But it defiinately sounds like you have a significant DPS issue.
6. Are you wasting as little time possible on the small adds? (aka letting your good AoE classes kill them)
Ex:
BH - Explosive Dart -> Death From Above -> go kill Jealous Male
Sorc - Force Storm 'till they die (+ procced Chain Lightning or Death Field) -> JM
Sin - (Death Field ->) JM
Agent - Orbital Strike (-> Plasma Probe) -> JM
Warrior -> JM

Healers could use a single AoE as well if they can afford it and your group has almost no AoE DPS.

BBTheHawk's Avatar


BBTheHawk
01.04.2013 , 05:25 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by CountOryansen View Post
thanks for your reply.

At 15% we are still working through the last bit of the third male and adds. The WH turns red and hard enrages.
This is confirmed by the buff in red "enrage 200% damage increase.
Again the loss is the dps somehow, but where? It's not gear.
Fine tuning and advanced mechanics me thinks.
Are you at 15% during the 3rd, or 4th Jealous Male? If 3rd, then you actually have too much DPS, as I recall the hard enrage will not happen until after the 4th Jealous Male spawns (5:45 into fight). (I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong)
If you are close to 15% before the 3rd JM spawns then stop DPS until he is down then go all out on the boss during his soft enrage/spawning champion adds and hope you can keep enough ppl up to finish off the adds.
If you are getting a 4th JM spawn then, yes, there does need to be more DPS.

CountOryansen's Avatar


CountOryansen
01.04.2013 , 05:41 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by gabrielluigi View Post
well then you are hitting the enrage. i would suggest putting everyone in MoX just to see what's going on and then having your top dps go in red circle after all other dps and top dps stays on boss no matter what. let your other 3 handle adds and jealous males. other than that are they keeping their debuffs up on the boss at all times? not using the right rotations is probably the only other thing it could be unless they just haven't optimized their gear yet. i remember with my sentinel i was trying to get him in BH as quick as possible and ended up with some pretty crappy stats until i started min/maxing. does your dps have to much acc / crit not enough power / surge? just something else to check.
Thanks again for all the good suggestions.
We will try 3 and 1 split the whole time and see how it goes.

Count Dooku: It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force... but by our skills with a lightsaber.

CountOryansen's Avatar


CountOryansen
01.04.2013 , 05:46 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Woetoo View Post
The strat I laid out is only for the initial pull and then the first Jealous Male. After that, just revert back to doing whatever it is you are doing now.

The "2 on boss, 2 on adds" isn't really what I was getting at though. Not least because I can't know what your raid composition is. Mainly it's a "mDPS on the boss/jealous male, rDPS on the small adds as soon as they arrive at the red circle". I only mentioned 2+ ranged DPS on the adds - just in case your raid group was largely melee. *Someone* needs to attack the small adds, but if you have ranged people - it usually only needs 2 (in an 8man group) to AoE the small adds down.

The sequence of events would be something like this :-

  • Tank-A pull the Boss.
  • When Tank-A gets 2x stacks of incubation, Tank-B takes the boss. This is very early in the fight.
  • Tank-A moves towards the ranged DPS and when the 2x incubations stacks spawn 2x add - the ranged DPS kill them and return to the boss. mDPS could help, but then why bother?
  • After a while, a Jealous Male and a red circle will spawn. Ranged DPS kill the Jealous. The red circle is ignored.
  • When Tank-B reaches 9 stacks of the incubation debuff. Do a tank swap.
  • Almost immediately afterwards, the 2nd Jealous Male and associated circle spawn. Tank-B picks up the Jealous.
  • Your mDPS swap onto the Jealous too. rDPS can stay on the boss. That's up to you**.
  • Someone goes to stand near the red circle and wait for the 9x stacks of incubation on Tank-B to trigger. At which point the person next to the red circle goes and stands in it - attracting the adds that spawned. When the small adds reach the circle, the rDPS stop attacking the boss and AoE down the small adds.

After this, everything continues as normal. Tank swaps happen each time a new Jealous Male spawns.

** -- We split our rDPS and mDPS according to target. With mDPS focusing on the 2nd, 3rd and potentially 4th Jealous Males. rDPS killing the 1st Jealous Male only and all small adds when they reach the red circles. If you have lots of mDPS or lots of rDPS, then my description is only a guide, not an absolute.

Just because we do it that way doesn't mean you have to. If you want mDPS to attack the small adds in the circle - fine. If you want rDPS to attack the Jealous - also fine.

We do it this way so that people are switching targets less and mDPS aren't spending more time than necessary running around. Reducing time lost target switching and moving are both ways to increase overall DPS.


As someone else points out, this only helps with this boss and only if you're consistently struggling with the enrage. There will come a point where you no longer need to do the boss this way and you can go back to doing "normal" tank swaps whenever a Jealous Male spawns. Not least, because this way is clunky and you'll need a higher level of DPS to kill the other bosses in TFB HM anyway.

I'm intrigued by the 1800+ DPS mentioned. That's not unreasonable given the amount of AoE involved. However, just in case it's linked to why you are hitting the enrage timer... I'll point out that you should only ever be getting the small adds to AoE down while a red circle is present. If you are getting adds to AoE more often, then it's likely you are doing tank swaps (or the tank is losing aggro/dying) too often.

Hope that clears up my advice and why it might work for you.

This line intentionally left blank
Thanks again for all the help. I'll will pass it by the team and maybe have a few goes a ***.

Is it possible to do the normal strat, but than go 2mdps on male and 2rdps on adds for all switches?
would that be better?

Count Dooku: It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force... but by our skills with a lightsaber.