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Just for fun: If each class had a third AC...

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Just for fun: If each class had a third AC...

Talonwk's Avatar


Talonwk
01.02.2013 , 05:41 PM | #11
There was another post similar to this about addig a new playable class. I think adding a third advanced class is really the most feasible way for SWTOR to add additional classes.

I would really like to see classes that can buff groups or debuff enemies to make everyone else stronger. This utility would add another aspect to the game. I think Rift did this nicely with a bard class. I think they can do damage (at a reduced amount like tanks do) and in return they provide healing to the groups or additional damage. They could also reduce damage taken, increase healing received, provide speed increases or other features that would make them worthwhile for a group to bring along.

This utility tree would only need to be one tree for the advanced class and you would still have a shared tree along with either dps/healer/tank third tree.

Something similar to the OPs reverse hilt user that could provide some damage but also adds like a gore debuff for the entire group or reduces the damage a boss does in addition to standard tank moves.

Inquisitors could use melee attacks as someone else mentioned and provide extra group benefits.

Bounty hunters and agents could provide technology that could buff the group and cause them to take less damage do, more damage, run faster etc. Instead of doing damage like the force users to apply their benefits they could provide benefits through healing or be able to heal in between their buffing abilities.

I think this would make group dynamics much more interested and different as well give SWTOR the ability to do new and different boss mechanics.

As mentioned the utility tree would likely only be a single tree and you could still just be straight DPS on you weaponless inquisitor or reverse hilt warrior. The BH could use blaster rifles etc etc.

TLDR: I would like to see utility classes/trees in SWTOR.
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Cleet_Xia's Avatar


Cleet_Xia
01.02.2013 , 07:17 PM | #12
That other thread is over in general atm.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=579274

Most of the suggestions are similar, or exactly the same. I think the real reason why people are leaning this way is that it gives people a little more flexibility with their gear. The biggest downside being that some of the AC's will lose some of their uniqueness. Sent/mara wont be the only dual weilding AC anymore for example. But's really the way the class abilities work different between each AC and the active abilities in the tech trees that make each spec play differently. It's mostly about allowing cosmetic changes that let people feel like they are not being pigeon holed into a set of options.

Shout it from the mountain top Kitru !!

Specs that are "worthless" really are not nearly as bad as they seem. They're only viewed that way until some player takes the time to figure them out, and then go ROFLstomp with them. Then they end up being the FoTM. Every balance patch can make any of those AC's in to the next Op build. So there isn't any reaon not to play them. And playing an "off" spec is going to make you play an "on" spec just that much better.
~Master Telagtun Telag of Lord Calypho~

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Sanctioned
01.02.2013 , 07:39 PM | #13
Imperial Agent : Smuggler
  1. Operative : Scoundrel
  2. Sniper : Gunslinger

  • Droid Specialist : Droid Tinkerer


An advanced class that specializes in droids and devices. It will possess skills that send (not probe) droids as suicide-bombers, hold aggro for X amount of seconds, click-deploy directional one-way shields, deploy AI turrets, group class-resource optimizer, bonus damage to droids, etc. Utilizes single blaster pistol and vibroknife. No Stealth no Advanced Cover.

One skill tree will focus on support & utility, the other tree will specialize in AOE damage, then there's DoT Lethality.

Will visually have several kamikaze ball-droids floating around it. Instant panty-dropper.

of course, called/summoned/used droids will visually differ between factions.
(Black Vulkars) Bastion: Dregs - 50 Operative , Dresni - 50 Assassin Fapmonster - 50 Vanguard
Shadowfire: Dregs - Spy | Ryuten - MPowers/MLS
Flurry: Ryushi - Rifleman/Creature Handler

Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
01.03.2013 , 01:23 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Unless you only look at PvP, at most, you could say that 2 specs are truly worthless and they're both Scoundrel. For PvP, you'll always have FotM builds/specs/etc and there is load more to balance between them so you'll always end up with "worthless" classes, not because they actually *are* worthless but because they're not the absolutely optimal.
This is equivalent to saying that worthless classes in PvP aren't worthless because someday they won't be worthless. Merc Arsenal, Merc Pyro, PT AP, Mara Annihiliation - there's a reason no one uses these classes anymore in competitive ranked PvP. They are all Pareto inefficient. There are other classes that do everything they do at the same or better efficiency. It is a huge hole in class balance. And claiming it is just a temporary phenomenon (i.e "FotM") flies in the face of the fact that some of those classes have been worthless in PvP for a full YEAR.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.03.2013 , 03:09 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
And claiming it is just a temporary phenomenon (i.e "FotM") flies in the face of the fact that some of those classes have been worthless in PvP for a full YEAR.
I'm not claiming that it's a temporary phenomenon. I'm saying it's a persistent problem when balancing PvP: there are simply too many additional variables compared to what is required to balance for PvE that it's almost impossible to account for all of the factors and create something balanced in both PvP and PvE. As such, because all of those variables are next to impossible to quantify and balance around while still preserving PvE performance, it's simply a truth that you have to accept as a hard core PvPer: some classes and specs are just not viable. The only game I know of that did a good job of maintaining PvP balance between classes was Guild Wars, and that was pretty much only because they restricted you to a tiny set of abilities that you could use (5, iirc) at any one time. In any game where you have more than a tiny set of abilities to use at a time, you're going to have classes that fall to the wayside in PvP because they're balanced for PvE (or, if PvP is the primary concern, you'll end up with classes worthless for PvE).

PvP and PvE are just completely different games and, as such, you just have to deal with some problems: TOR is designed and balanced more with PvE in mind than PvP (yes, some changes get made for PvP's sake, but not with the same level of importance as PvE considerations). There will *always* be some classes and specs that just have no place in PvP.
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Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
01.04.2013 , 02:45 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
As such, because all of those variables are next to impossible to quantify and balance around while still preserving PvE performance, it's simply a truth that you have to accept as a hard core PvPer: some classes and specs are just not viable.
No. That is a lazy man's excuse for bad PvP balance. There are plenty of methods to enhance classes that are bad at PvP but already competitive at PvE. The most egregious (one full YEAR) case of BW leaving a class worthless in PvP is Merc dps. And yes, Merc dps is fine for PvE. But BW has gone out of its way to nerf PvP traits for Merc dps (i.e. Sweltering Heat). You can not explain this by simply waving your hands in the air and exclaiming that there are too many variables to account for. BW could easily buff underpowered PvP dps classes by adding a +10% resistance to damage when stunned or cc'ed to the top tier talent for these classes. This would have virtually no effect on endgame PvE.

The problem is far deeper than an inability to accounting for multiple variables. The problem is that BW has improperly diagnosed which subclasses need buffs and which subclasses need nerfs in PvP. The ludicrous buffing of Rage/Focus dps in 1.6 is just one example. Until BW catches up with the knowledge base that exists amongst the top PvP players, PvP balance will always be lacking. And the refrain of "there are too many variables, so I can't fix it" will always be weakly offered as an excuse.

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Darkchip
01.04.2013 , 05:44 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
No. That is a lazy man's excuse for bad PvP balance. There are plenty of methods to enhance classes that are bad at PvP but already competitive at PvE. The most egregious (one full YEAR) case of BW leaving a class worthless in PvP is Merc dps. And yes, Merc dps is fine for PvE. But BW has gone out of its way to nerf PvP traits for Merc dps (i.e. Sweltering Heat). You can not explain this by simply waving your hands in the air and exclaiming that there are too many variables to account for. BW could easily buff underpowered PvP dps classes by adding a +10% resistance to damage when stunned or cc'ed to the top tier talent for these classes. This would have virtually no effect on endgame PvE.

The problem is far deeper than an inability to accounting for multiple variables. The problem is that BW has improperly diagnosed which subclasses need buffs and which subclasses need nerfs in PvP. The ludicrous buffing of Rage/Focus dps in 1.6 is just one example. Until BW catches up with the knowledge base that exists amongst the top PvP players, PvP balance will always be lacking. And the refrain of "there are too many variables, so I can't fix it" will always be weakly offered as an excuse.
*clap clap clap* give this man a round of appluse we have a guy with a brain on this forum and has hit it right on the head.

But it's more then that BW have been doing this since they first started making games there have been inbalances in all of there games.
here are a few i can think of off they top of my head.
#1 DA1: this game was so faving the mages that it's not funny have a mage on your team and the enemy may as well just kill themselfs since they are not getting close to you, having a team of mages well yeah thats just insta win since NOTHING will be able to get to your guys as long as you have alistar on your team as a tank and should he be hit with friendly fire have no fear just have one of your mages heal him with there super op healing spells.
#2 DA2: do i even need to say it mage again only this time they game the mages freaking rapid fire from there staffs pritty much the same as the first one just have a mage as a main and have them roll speirt healer and never worry about bandages for your team ever again just spend all that extra money on upgrades and compaion mods and insta win it.
#3 KotoR 1 & 2: do i even need to say it roll the soldier and guarden class's for the extra feets and jump moves makes the game to damn easy.
#4 neverwinter nights 2: this one is a combo of class and race go a pally as a teethling *think that was there name the devil race* and just stomp though everything. the pally is so freaking op in that game with the compaion you get that it makes you wonder why they gave you a choice really and going a teethling gives you nightvision makes navagating so easy that you will never spring traps if you take the thief with you.

those are just the games that i can rember off the top of my head but the point has been made BW can't balance a game to save there own lives.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.04.2013 , 11:22 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
BW could easily buff underpowered PvP dps classes by adding a +10% resistance to damage when stunned or cc'ed to the top tier talent for these classes. This would have virtually no effect on endgame PvE.
And how much effect do you really think that would have on their effectiveness in PvP? Commandos are worthless in PvP because they are functionally a turret class without turret protections or burst mobility. 30% decreased damage taken while stunned or incapacitated isn't going to solve that problem. You're suggesting a miniscule situational buff that, yes, while it affects PvP *way* more than PvE, isn't really going to make an appreciable difference in performance. If it *did*, you'd see a *lot* more Tactics VGs (that actually get a 30% reduction in AoE damage *and* 30% reduction in damage taken while stunned) running around in PvP.

PvP is a holistic balancing effort, substantially more than PvE is. Largely unquantifiable values such as mobility (Force Speed v. Force Leap v. passive +spd; the passive +spd buffs amount to 60% the same mobility increase as Force Speed but, because Force Speed is a *burst* mobility effect, it's *way* more useful; Force Leap lets you gap close faster with more utility and damage than Force Speed on a lower CD, but Force Speed can be used to escape; are they balanced or is one of them better than the other because of those differences?) and utility (how do you numerically compare the virtues of stealth to slows/immobs to CCs to stuns to KBs) have to be factored in right alongside damage (which is further muddled by the need to weigh burst DPS heavier than sustained DPS for PvP but not for PvE), survivability (once again, muddled by the fact that CD centric burst survivability such as Sentinels get is more valuable in PvP thanks to the short time frames of combat, not to mention the vast gulf between the usefulness of mitigation stats in PvE, where they are *amazing*, and PvP, where they are questionable at best), and healing (hardcast healing is substantially worse than instant heals because of the presence of players actually interrupting; in PvE. it's relatively easy to quantify the differences because of the 1.5 second GCD but, in PvP, where interrupts are actually present, a 1.5 sec cast heal is *not* functionally balanced at the same ratio as an instant cast heal, not to mention widespread pre-healing effects, such as double stacking the Scoundrel HoT or Sage healing the entire group, are substantially more useful than they are in PvE because you can't expect just the tank to take all of the damage for the group).

So, no, it's not as simple as you think it is. Most of the knowledge that top end PvPers have acquired is heuristic: they feel, thanks to their experience, that Sentinels are better than Guardians as PvP DPS, because they're harder to kill and hit harder, but they can't adequately quantify those values. Because those differences cannot be quantified effectively and some of them can't be addressed without also affecting PvE (such as reducing the effectiveness of the Sentinel survivability CDs which are balanced in PvE but way more effective in PvP; balancing them for PvP would end up making Sentinels squishier in PvE, therefore affecting that balance consideration), the only way to effectively balance the classes is with repeated cycles of balancing coupled with monumental amounts of playtesting and, guess what, the number of hard core PvPers actually willing to spend a lot of time on the PTS just to mess around with changes to various class effectiveness for classes they may not be good at played or enjoy playing is remarkably small (sure, you'll get a lot of people saying they would be willing to, but a vast majority of playtesters just hop over to see what the changes are and then leave without actually giving them the testing that is needed). As such, to reach said balance, you get lots of changes that make it to the live game that aren't actually ready for it because they weren't adequately vetted by the hard core PvPers that were needed to make sure they were appropriate.

Blizzard has had a *way* bigger staff than Bioware and a large number of them are explicitly focused on PvP and yet, for some reason (/sarc), there are *always* classes and specs considered worthless for PvP explicitly because they were balanced elsewhere. When I stopped playing WoW during Cata, Shaman healers were the *only* healer any ranked PvP group even dreamed of bringing in; Priests, Druids, and Palis were all considering medice non grata for competitive PvP. Sure, you could field one of the other classes, but you would pretty much always prefer to take a Shammy instead (I remember because I played a Shammy healer and got constantly pestered to PvP even though I didn't enjoy it when none of the Palis, Priests, or Druids in my guild who *did* enjoy PvP could find a ranked group willing to take them along). And, of course, this was also during the time frame that, for *PvE*, Shammy healers were remarkably underpowered compared to the other healers for 99% of the situations in game. The other healers weren't going to get buffed to make them viable for PvP because they were already strong enough in PvE, and Shammies weren't going to get buffed for PvE because they were already the best PvP healers.

It's *nowhere near* as simple as you seem to think it is. Just because you have a heuristic notion that some classes are weaker than others at PvP based upon your experience doesn't mean you have the ability to actually appropriately gauge what changes would be required to *make* them balanced *without* impacting their performance in PvE *explicitly because* your notion is entirely heuristic. You don't know how 30% decreased damage taken while stunned is going to actually impact the ability of a Commando to function in PvP; personally, I think that it would just make them spend slightly longer locked down by melee classes that just leap to them and blow them up before they end up dying and respawning just to have it happen again because it's not addressing the core weakness of the class. To make them effective, they either need to become utility gods (which I really don't see happening) or they need to gain some specific capability that will address the exact reason why they suck at the moment (i.e. they have to stand and cast to be effective but they have neither leap protection, interrupt protection, nor burst mobility that is required to be an effective stand and cast in PvP).

The games that have managed to create well-balanced PvP environs have accomplished such explicitly by simplifying things so that there are fewer variables to account for: League of Legends removed most sources of randomness (attacks all deal a flat amount of damage and almost all "chance for" abilities were removed so that it's almost purely predictable; the only thing that remains random is Critical Strike chance, which only applies to some abilities) while both Guild Wars and League of Legends restricted the number of abilities accessible at any one time to any class/champion to an exceptionally small number of abilities. Both of those decisions were pretty much explicitly made to make the game easier to balance for the purposes of PvP: fewer abilities equates to fewer variables and static damage with most abilities incapable of causing critical hits means that even the randomness is controlled and restricted.

If you want a game where virtually all classes are well and truly balanced for PvP, go to a game that is explicitly about PvP *and was designed as such*. The sheer number of abilities combined with the stat based differences caused by gearing (not just between tiers but even in the same tier with different gearing mentalities), mechanical differences based upon different specs (even 2-3 points moved in the same spec can have major differences in PvP performance) and the need to preserve PvE performance all add up to make cost-and-time-effective PvP balance for all classes and specs functionally unattainable except through some magnificent accident. In short, you don't get a lot of options for a class *and* balanced PvP; it's one or the other *especially* if there is PvE thrown in the mix as well because that just serves to provide explicit caps for attributes like damage, healing, and survivability so as to preserve PvE balance. Learn to deal with it.
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Cleet_Xia's Avatar


Cleet_Xia
01.04.2013 , 03:02 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
...........Shammy healers were remarkably underpowered compared to the other healers for 99% of the situations in game. The other healers weren't going to get buffed to make them viable for PvP because they were already strong enough in PvE, and Shammies weren't going to get buffed for PvE because they were already the best PvP healers.
That is the whole problem right there, and it will never go away. Even if PvP ever does achieve something close to blanced, the players will always scream "IMBA - fitz da PvP" And their suggestion is nearly always, "Buff my class". Lot of PvPer's don't want to play balanced PvP, they want to be able to ROFLstomp everyone who has not yet discovered their "perfect PvP build".

The same players are the one's saying, "these abilities are worthless" When the truth is they are just not creative enough to make use of them. i doubt the average PvPer rarely think to themselves, "Okay, that player SHOULD have whipped my #$%, cause they're just that good". I'm not going to say that the abilities are completely balanced, but it doesn't seem to matter at all to some players ~ because they're GOOD.

Adding AC's to the game, would create more 'perfect builds" for these players to "discover". There will always be some specs players elect not to use. But extra AC's with unique spec active abilities would still add variation to the game for both PvP & PvE.
~Master Telagtun Telag of Lord Calypho~

Macroeconomics's Avatar


Macroeconomics
01.04.2013 , 08:14 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
And how much effect do you really think that would have on their effectiveness in PvP? Commandos are worthless in PvP because they are functionally a turret class without turret protections or burst mobility. 30% decreased damage taken while stunned or incapacitated isn't going to solve that problem. You're suggesting a miniscule situational buff that, yes, while it affects PvP *way* more than PvE, isn't really going to make an appreciable difference in performance. If it *did*, you'd see a *lot* more Tactics VGs (that actually get a 30% reduction in AoE damage *and* 30% reduction in damage taken while stunned) running around in PvP.
You seem to have an difficulty understanding the concept of marginal changes vs. absolute levels. Add an additional, i.e. marginal, +30% reduction in AoE and stun/cc damage to Tactics Vanguards, and you will see people switching to it. The point is that you CAN buff classes in ways that impact PvP and have minimal impact on PvE. Here is just a partial list of ways BW could buff classes in PvP-centric ways:

- Reduce the CD on Determination/Unleash/Escape
- Add damage resistance to 4 piece set bonus of PvP dps armor sets
- Increase radius of Stealth Scanner, make use of Stealth Scanner invisible to enemy players
- Increase effectiveness of snares for weaker classes
- Reduce CD of knockbacks for weaker classes
- Reduce buildup of resolve with the use of knockback abilities of weaker classes
- Increase snare time associated with use of knockback abilities of weaker classes
- Add root cleansing to an ability of a weaker class

There really is NO excuse for the current levels of PvP imbalance. Wait, correction. There is no good excuse. The claim that PvE restrictions prevent PvP imbalance is a bad excuse.