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No patience to tank anymore

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Bounty Hunter
No patience to tank anymore

ZeroPlus's Avatar


ZeroPlus
12.06.2012 , 10:33 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by SiegePro View Post
Sorry, my general experience is that whoever put together the PUG tends to determine the pace... after all, they're the one who actually took the initiative to form a group up instead of just spamming "50 Guardian LFG" on General again and again.

If you wanna be in charge, form your own group. Don't just expect to take charge of one someone else put together because you're a tank.
I believe we are talking about Flash Points (FP). For FPs you use the Group Finder (GF).

When you use GF, you end up in a Pick Up Group (PUG) that was not put together by anyone in particular and a random member is assigned the role of leader (basically, so he/she can requeue in GF if someone is removed/leaves).

In this situation, the "leadership role" tends to default to the Tank for the simple reason that he is normally the first one into the fight. The Tank becomes responsible for the pace of the run.

*BUT* EVERYONE is responsible for something *and* communicating with the rest of the group:
  • It is the Tank's responsibility to let the group know what he is going to do if he plans on doing anything other than charge in and attack the strongest mob.
  • If the Tank is going too fast for the Healer, it is the Healer's responsibility to make the Tank aware that he needs more time.
  • It is the DPS's responsibility to burn down the weaks/normals/strongs in a group while the Tank holds the attention of the Elite/Champion.
  • If a player has a Crowd Control (CC) ability, it is their responsibility to inform the group that they can CC and ask for/suggest CC targets.
  • If the Tank is new to the FP, it is his responsibility to warn that he is new to the FP and ask if anyone knows the FP so the group is not going in blind.
  • If a player knows the FP, it is his responsibility (no matter what his role) to explain the FP *as well as he can*.
  • If noone knows the FP, it becomes EVERYONE'S responsibility to work together to beat the FP.

Things start to go wrong when people refuse to acknowledge their own responsibility in the success of a group.

Some players will say that they never had to say anything and that their groups worked just fine. This *only* happens when everyone in the group knows what to do, assumes responsibility for it and just does it. No communication is needed when this is the case.

However, many times these same players, who say communication is not needed, are also the first to abandon a group when they run into less experienced players who don't understand their responsibilities and in so doing they are shirking their responsibilty to the group. If *you* are one of these players, and you see that you are with a less experienced group, step up and assume RESPONSIBILITY for the group's success. It becomes your responsibility to guide the group, explain what they should be doing (not HOW, but WHAT), and hold them together so the group can complete the FP.

When everyone assumes responsibility for the group's success, everyone enjoys themselves much more . Tanks will enjoy tanking and will want to continue tanking. Healer's will enjoy healing and will want to continue healing. DPS... well... DPS always have a good time and will continue to be DPS no matter what happens .
If you seek answers, you must always ask questions. - Master Vandar Tokare.

[Suggestion] Add another Blaster Pistol with the "A-300 Heavy Sonic Needler" model = DONE!

Escherichia's Avatar


Escherichia
12.07.2012 , 05:46 AM | #22
No, the tank sets the pace. Yes, you have to wait for your healer but that's not "setting the pace" that's having common sense. You can have / be a good healer but if your tank is slow the group isn't moving beyond that speed.

Yes, the tank is the group leader by default due to typical physical location in fights--in front. This is why tanks are played the least, it's not a role for timid people who hang back and follow. You don't have to bark orders or explain pulls but you do have to be the first player in, typically.

As for people "misbehaving" like pulling in front of me or what else have you (not sure what else there is that I'd be concerned about). If it's happening I just tell my group that I am not to be held responsible for pulls I don't execute. I don't let people die on purpose and I don't say anything else beyond that. If people die because I am having trouble with the pulls because now everything is spread / started on 3 different targets / etc my group has already been informed that it's not my problem because I was not the one pulling. If they want to change their ways and let me pull if we fall into trouble, they change. If we're not having trouble, then we're not, and there's no further discussion or change warranted.
Legonella, Power Tech, The Bastion.

RikHar's Avatar


RikHar
12.07.2012 , 03:51 PM | #23
Great post, ZeroPlus.

Nickybob's Avatar


Nickybob
12.23.2012 , 04:27 PM | #24
I'm with you there. I tanked all the time on WoW. But leaving WoW and coming to swtor I don't really feel like dealing with stupid ppl. I don't always have the best armor for tanking so I just dps. But I still play the tanking tree for the higher survival when I'm questing.

Akiviri's Avatar


Akiviri
12.28.2012 , 03:31 AM | #25
I tried playing tank - once. I am normally a very patient person, but - apparently there are some who have one hell of a lot more patience than I do.

Tank sets the pace - right behind whatever heals uses to keep him alive.

Tank sets the pace because Tank ALSO has cooldowns/energy levels/etc used to keep everyone else alive ... as well as the fact that it only makes sense for tank to go in first to grab all the mobs that will otherwise chew your faces off and crap down your throats.

My rule in my short career as a tank - you pull it you tank it. If you die, which is normally not even a "If" situation - well then maybe you'll learn something. Doubtful, if you're actually that stupid - but maybe.

Tank also sets the pace because unless people have been in that particular place enough times - he is usually the only one who knows where everything is, not always - as everyone has to learn .. but usually.

As far as people not listening/doing their own thing/etc etc. :

Once = "You pull it, you tank it - and don't whine about dying either" Unless it was an accident. ALTERNATIVELY - if you NEED all the DPS to keep the group alive. Let him fight the thing until he's almost dead. Then taunt it off of him, and tell him NOT to be that stupid again. Best to clue heals in beforehand with that strategy tho.

Twice = drop group. Going to be a waste of time because clearly these people have no common sense, and no sense of group coordination.

Me - I found my love with instances, and that is soloing them. The harder the better.

OlosBC's Avatar


OlosBC
12.28.2012 , 09:27 AM | #26
I see good DPS as a challenge to tank for, and have fun with it that way. The whole "you pull it you tank it" thing is utter primadonna ********. Tank usually sets the pace, yes, but is still only 1/4 of the group.

Personally, I usually prefer to tank, as its usually rare to find a tank that goes as fast as I do when I tank, and I get bored waiting on tanks that are just gonna stop attacking when I inevitably pull anyway.

I still enjoy playing all three roles though.
Olos - 55 Hybrid Powertech
Fonia - 55 Madness Sorceror
<Dark Fury> of Jedi Covenant
Previously Fonia and Daygoru of Tempest server in SWG.

Akiviri's Avatar


Akiviri
12.28.2012 , 10:16 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by OlosBC View Post
The whole "you pull it you tank it" thing is utter primadonna ********. Tank usually sets the pace, yes, but is still only 1/4 of the group.

So letting some dumb*** DPS tank his own trash/boss is " utter primadonna ******** " when neither heals nor tank is ready/able to continue? I'll have to remember that.

True tank is 1/4 - heals is also another 1/4 and those two keep the entire group alive.... hence Tank/Heals being the individuals who set the pace.

Call it what you will - but the facts are still the facts. If you want to live ... you wait for the Tank and Healer.

As an observation - if your ADD is so bad that you can't wait 10 seconds for the Tank or Healer to get their utilities back, than maybe you need to look at that, rather than blaming it on a "Prima Donna" Tank.

OlosBC's Avatar


OlosBC
12.28.2012 , 06:51 PM | #28
Not talking about charging in before the tank does, which is just stupid unless its a pull you can solo.

Talking about when DPS pull agro. The tank's job is to put out enough threat that the DPS don't have to throttle back. When a DPS pulls threat, my response as a tank is "sweet, here's a guard and let's see if I can keep that from happening again" rather than "omg dude don't pull threat or I'll vote kick you".
Olos - 55 Hybrid Powertech
Fonia - 55 Madness Sorceror
<Dark Fury> of Jedi Covenant
Previously Fonia and Daygoru of Tempest server in SWG.

Omophorus's Avatar


Omophorus
12.28.2012 , 06:53 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Akiviri View Post
So letting some dumb*** DPS tank his own trash/boss is " utter primadonna ******** " when neither heals nor tank is ready/able to continue? I'll have to remember that.

True tank is 1/4 - heals is also another 1/4 and those two keep the entire group alive.... hence Tank/Heals being the individuals who set the pace.

Call it what you will - but the facts are still the facts. If you want to live ... you wait for the Tank and Healer.

As an observation - if your ADD is so bad that you can't wait 10 seconds for the Tank or Healer to get their utilities back, than maybe you need to look at that, rather than blaming it on a "Prima Donna" Tank.
Taunts on trash pulls are mostly a waste of time, and even in Tionese-Columi level gear all around damage taken should be manageable to a competent healer. If a healer can't chain-pull a HM, they suck. Plain and simple.

Yes, the rest of the group not being hopeless plays into that, but this game just isn't that taxing, even when not over geared.

The only thing limiting pace should be how fast the group covers empty ground. Sure, fights will take longer with less gear, but not by that much.

The wonderful post saying all roles are equal is dead on, and there's no excuse for being a prima donna healer, tank, or even DPS. If an individual in any role isn't pulling their weight, vote kick them. If they form the majority, leave. If anyone tries to e-thug, call their bluff. If you have a clue and they don't, they don't deserve your time.
Srs'bsns, GM of <Proper Villains> of The Ebon Hawk
5/5 Nightmare Power DF & DP
"This is why we don't bring Assassin tanks"

Akiviri's Avatar


Akiviri
12.28.2012 , 09:08 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by OlosBC View Post
Not talking about charging in before the tank does, which is just stupid unless its a pull you can solo.
Then we're in agreement - because that's what the conversation was about = setting the pace.

Quote: Originally Posted by OlosBC View Post
Talking about when DPS pull agro. The tank's job is to put out enough threat that the DPS don't have to throttle back. When a DPS pulls threat, my response as a tank is "sweet, here's a guard and let's see if I can keep that from happening again" rather than "omg dude don't pull threat or I'll vote kick you".
Mostly agree. Keeping in mind that while leveling (or gearing up) people are going to be at different gear levels and some adjustment on both sides will be necessary - but challenging is good, yes?