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Why Empire is doomed


Przemo_No's Avatar


Przemo_No
11.23.2012 , 02:08 AM | #1
I had no real intention to play Empire classes originally, however the HK parts quest forced me to roll a toon there too. Hereby some remarks.

While Koribban as for starting planed looks pretty much KOTORish and makes sense being just a tomb excavation site (after all it is newly re-claimed planet for Empire), the capita l - Dromund Kaas has little excuse. Or actually IS a perfect explanation why Empire is doomed to fail.

Dromund Kaas (I am just waiting when someone in Netherlands invents a cheese called Dromund  ) is nothing but a un-inhabited jungle/rocky wastes, where no real city development nor economical infrastructure is (and will be) built.

All due to Empire’s main principle and the idea of fighting against each other for the “unlimited power”.
All that Sith code stuff.

Doing the above leaves little (if any) time to think about generating economical power, which in fact works much better and attracts more people than any war ever.
Constant watching your back and seeking (momentary only) alliances against those who grew a bit more into power, is by no means a way to establish a stable growth path for any country (not to mention an Empire).

But perhaps there are few in Empire who could think a bit “out of the box” and try to organize some more orchestrated activities - like the one on Coruscant.

This, however, was probably one time event because Jedi Temple represents all that Siths hate the most and that’s why they were willing to “unify” to make successful attack.

But after that there are only scattered “Lords” and” Darths” who are only interested in their particular power and fighting against others in the same faction. Malgus also went into delusions .

How is that being a viable path to destroy the Republic?? A powerful organism with \thousands of planets and gazzilion of inhabitants?

Look at the galaxy: Siths are only trying to cap plants being originally with the Republic, cap with no real chances for success, remembering that living organisms everywhere would still prefer economic growth as their main path instead of never ending crusades to the outer rims or even further.

Apparently Empire is too weak and too scattered to be a real danger for the Republic even if the latter has some recent issues with few separatist planets.

All this makes me quite reluctant to get involved into the Empire story, because…well, I know I am doomed. Killing few jedis or others won't help that at all.

Fighting for the sake of fights? naaah..

The only one who had some brains was Palpi, who understood that Republic can be only captured by holding its centre – Senate. But even he could not hold it.
Hello, two against the galaxy?
What did he smoke??

All in all, Empire is a ill-thought idea. There's no reason to join.

Just loud thinking.
Dark side is a pathway to many abilities, some consider to be unnatural.

AlexDougherty's Avatar


AlexDougherty
11.23.2012 , 10:26 AM | #2
The politics of the Empire is reminiscent of Italy during the Dark/Middle Ages, the Borgia's, the Medici, etc.

The Republic however is weak, it never really recovered from the events of Kotor and Kotor2, it has planets seperating from it, and signs of internal corruption and general incompetence.

To say that the Empire is doomed at this stage is premature, or rather it is premature to say that the Republic will win, or even survive. While the Republic does get it's act together, IT IS A CLOSE THING, it almost fails numerous times.

Admittedly the Empires social and political scene is self-destructive. But quite a few nations here on earth have been just as self-destructive, or lock into a mutually destructive path with another country, and gone on to survive.

Besides the point is to experience the story, to get to know the Star Wars Universe, how is that pointless.
Peace can be found, above all passions. Through passion, I may gain strength.
Through strength, I may gain power. Through power, I may gain victory.
But for every enemy fallen, a new foe rises.
For every chain broken, new chains bind me. Only the Force can set me free.

Nydus's Avatar


Nydus
11.23.2012 , 10:59 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Przemo_No View Post
Dromund Kaas ... is nothing but a un-inhabited jungle/rocky wastes, where no real city development nor economical infrastructure is (and will be) built.
Kaas city looks fairly expansive. You are only able to explore a fraction of it (look around you when you take a taxi to the citadel). Additionally, Capital cities are generally not the "largerst population or economy centres" in real life.

For example: what country do you live in? Is the capital the city with the biggest economy or population?

Quote:
Doing the above leaves little (if any) time to think about generating economical power, which in fact works much better and attracts more people than any war ever.
Constant watching your back and seeking (momentary only) alliances against those who grew a bit more into power, is by no means a way to establish a stable growth path for any country (not to mention an Empire).
Not sure George Orwell would agree . I would say I agree that the long-term prosperity and standard of living are dependent on economical stablity and growth. However, I'd also not mistake the shenanigans at the top with how the average imperial citizen lives.

Real life example would be Germany circa 1930s (and lets admit it, SW imperial imagery borrows heavily from the Axis in WW2 so I'm allowed to reference this). Anyone approaching the top echalons of power would see a world of chaotic intrigue where generals, and police chiefs and Politicians literally plotted the murder of their competitors. At times, this erupted into open, state-sanctioned warfare where german soliders and police launched cross-country operations to annihilate opposing factions. Sound familiar?

To the average german citizen there was a semblance of order as the reporting on the above was generally... muted...

Now you say that system was "doomed"? Ask Poland, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Czechoslovakia, Luxembourg, Norway, Yugoslavia, Greece, etc. Yes, Germany ended up losing the overall war but they weren't "destined to lose". Took FAR too much work on the Allies' part for us to make THAT statement.

Quote:
But after that there are only scattered “Lords” and” Darths” who are only interested in their particular power and fighting against others in the same faction. Malgus also went into delusions.
What class did you roll? Sorceror storyline Chapter II, III deals predominantly with a doctrinaire and powerful Darth on the Dark Council who is very much obsessed with maintaining order and making sure inter-faction combat follows set and prescribed rules.

He will literally (try to) kill off people who he perceives as too power hungry.

Quote:
All this makes me quite reluctant to get involved into the Empire story, because…well, I know I am doomed. Killing few jedis or others won't help that at all.
If that is your opinion I'd recommend playing the Imperial Agent. It is about far more than the Republic and you get opportunities to weigh in on the Sith agenda. Loyalty to Empire or Loyalty to Sith.

Quote:
All in all, Empire is a ill-thought idea. There's no reason to join.
It's a game. You join because it is fun. We KNOW that the empire is destined to lose given that the events in TOR take place thousands of years PRIOR to the movies.

- Arcada
The Arcada Legacy (Ebon Hawk)
Ord'os (Lvl.55 Sorcerer), Naresa (Lvl.53 Operative), Jagrafess (Lvl.19 Marauder)
Nydus (Lvl.54 Shadow), Toclafane (Lvl.27 Guardian)

Nydus's Avatar


Nydus
11.23.2012 , 11:03 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by AlexDougherty View Post
The politics of the Empire is reminiscent of Italy during the Dark/Middle Ages, the Borgia's, the Medici, etc.
In what way? (Asked out of genuine interest!). I can't help but notice that the imagery is more than reminiscent of a more recent country to the north of Italy .

- Arcada
The Arcada Legacy (Ebon Hawk)
Ord'os (Lvl.55 Sorcerer), Naresa (Lvl.53 Operative), Jagrafess (Lvl.19 Marauder)
Nydus (Lvl.54 Shadow), Toclafane (Lvl.27 Guardian)

AlexDougherty's Avatar


AlexDougherty
11.24.2012 , 06:31 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Nydus View Post
In what way? (Asked out of genuine interest!). I can't help but notice that the imagery is more than reminiscent of a more recent country to the north of Italy .

- Arcada
Back-stabbing, short term alliances, propaganda, vendetta's, complex webs of favours, alliances and grudges, social climbing, etc. Really interesting period to read about, wouldn't want to live then. Wasn't refering to the landscape itself, just the politics.
Peace can be found, above all passions. Through passion, I may gain strength.
Through strength, I may gain power. Through power, I may gain victory.
But for every enemy fallen, a new foe rises.
For every chain broken, new chains bind me. Only the Force can set me free.

Sage_of_Battle's Avatar


Sage_of_Battle
11.24.2012 , 08:26 PM | #6
I think you're referring more to the Sith than anything else. The Sith Order at the time, is flawed which is why the Order of Two comes into play later on. I'd say the Sith is the real reason as to why the Empire fails. Corruption is in every government, with rivals plotting against each other at all times. The Empire having rivals isn't it's downfall at all.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that the Empire is weak, as with the Republic quests, you're assisting others that couldn't take out the Imperials themselves. The Empire is in no means, weak. All in all, the only reason the Empire fails is due to the Sith's destructiveness.

Palpatine never failed in controlling the galaxy, he succeeded in his mandate but ended up losing it.

There are many documentaries that touch on Empires and other factions that ended up falling, just because we know the outcome, do we toss all information aside? It's a game, you play it to have fun.

Przemo_No's Avatar


Przemo_No
11.26.2012 , 02:00 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Nydus View Post
Kaas city looks fairly expansive. You are only able to explore a fraction of it (look around you when you take a taxi to the citadel). Additionally, Capital cities are generally not the "largerst population or economy centres" in real life.

For example: what country do you live in? Is the capital the city with the biggest economy or population?
Most EU countries have their capitals being also the largest economy cities. Most.

Quote: Originally Posted by Nydus
Now you say that system was "doomed"? Ask Poland, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Czechoslovakia, Luxembourg, Norway, Yugoslavia, Greece, etc. Yes, Germany ended up losing the overall war but they weren't "destined to lose". Took FAR too much work on the Allies' part for us to make THAT statement.

I do not need to ask. I know it personally. I saw even too much.
That's also why i am not inclined to play like one of those who MAKE it happen.

Quote: Originally Posted by Arcada
It's a game. You join because it is fun. We KNOW that the empire is destined to lose given that the events in TOR take place thousands of years PRIOR to the movies.

Yes, I know and i probably will continue My Inquisitor is fully on DS, but I sometimes do not see any sense in decisions she makes, so it's is only for the sake of reaching Dark V. But I may reconsider later.

Just wanted to share my thoughts, nothing more.
Dark side is a pathway to many abilities, some consider to be unnatural.

TheBetty's Avatar


TheBetty
11.26.2012 , 04:40 PM | #8
It's mentioned a few times during the game and further enforced by Malgus' actions. The biggest problems that face the Empire is not it's economic stability. The Empire actually indulges in many profitable opportunites as you play through the planet quest chains, not to mention the bulk of it's work force is slave labour.

Sith infighting is obviously a major problem for the Empire but it's also it's xenophobic stand point. Soo many races/planets could have joined the Empire however were turned down due to the fact they were 'aliens'. With soo many planets breaking away from the Republic, this was prime opportunity to make them members of the Empire.

Spoiler


If the Sith could unify and the Dark Council threw it's Xenophobia to the side. The Republic would have no chance.
If force choking Jawas is wrong, I don't want to be right.

Korusus's Avatar


Korusus
11.26.2012 , 07:11 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Przemo_No View Post
The only one who had some brains was Palpi, who understood that Republic can be only captured by holding its centre – Senate. But even he could not hold it.
Hello, two against the galaxy?
What did he smoke??
This stood out to me, mostly because Palpatine (as far as the movies go) is a bad literary character /empreparestobeflamedbygeorgelucasfanboys. His rise to power was, quite frankly, ridiculous. He is the product of a bad writer. The Sith Empire in SWTOR is far better written and much more believable in terms of how they function and how they came to power, but that's true of most of the Extended Universe.

Darth Vader and Palpatine were examples of great villains who were bad leaders and would never have been able to run a successful organization that wasn't fantasy. Darth Vader is a fool. Palpatine is a walking deus ex machina. The scene where Palpatine declares the Republic is now an "Empire" is so unbelievable and contrived, it reminds me more of the Nazi Party's Beer Hall Putsch in Munich than Hitler's (or any other successful dictators) rise to power.

It just reminds me of the scene Lucas inserted at the end of ROTJ of crowds celebrating in Coruscant when Palpatine "dies"... as if the Empire suddenly zapped back into being the Republic again just as quickly as the Republic became the Empire.

Oh and for some historical context...if you know anything about Emperor Augustus (Rome's first true Emperor after the Republic "fell")... he never called himself an Emperor. That was the beauty of it and why he was so successful.

Przemo_No's Avatar


Przemo_No
11.27.2012 , 01:13 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Korusus View Post
This stood out to me, mostly because Palpatine (as far as the movies go) is a bad literary character /empreparestobeflamedbygeorgelucasfanboys. His rise to power was, quite frankly, ridiculous. He is the product of a bad writer. The Sith Empire in SWTOR is far better written and much more believable in terms of how they function and how they came to power, but that's true of most of the Extended Universe.

Darth Vader and Palpatine were examples of great villains who were bad leaders and would never have been able to run a successful organization that wasn't fantasy. Darth Vader is a fool. Palpatine is a walking deus ex machina. The scene where Palpatine declares the Republic is now an "Empire" is so unbelievable and contrived, it reminds me more of the Nazi Party's Beer Hall Putsch in Munich than Hitler's (or any other successful dictators) rise to power.

It just reminds me of the scene Lucas inserted at the end of ROTJ of crowds celebrating in Coruscant when Palpatine "dies"... as if the Empire suddenly zapped back into being the Republic again just as quickly as the Republic became the Empire.

Oh and for some historical context...if you know anything about Emperor Augustus (Rome's first true Emperor after the Republic "fell")... he never called himself an Emperor. That was the beauty of it and why he was so successful.

Oh, sure. But knowing the SW stories, we have to take few things as granted. I agree that Palpatine was like a "rabbit out of the magicians hat", but hey, he is kinda canonical now. His rise to power was more than ridiculous, but not entirely impossible.
There were few factors that actually helped, namely:
- Senate's indolence to recognize arising problems;
- private businesses having higher priority than common sense;
- "colossus inertia" of the Republic
- Palpatine's incredible talents in plotting and finding "tools" and leverages to control the situation

All that in fact does not fall far from current situation on Earth (or at least in EU) and it seems it is quite repeatable course of events.

Yes, I have read about Augustus.
But what really makes me sorry is the fact that the so called "Christians" have ruthlessly destroyed the biggest and the most smart empire on this planet - Byzantium.

Those guys had it all. Way much more democratic and tolerant than anything else humanity invented.
Ok, there was corruption and palace wars (they are everywhere) and all kinds of other problems, but at least they knew that allowing some basic freedoms (religion, speech, work for profit) to their people would only result in country growth.

But yeah, the "unlimited greed for gold and power" of so called Western Empire has removed them form this planet. During the Crusade. How ironic is that....
Dark side is a pathway to many abilities, some consider to be unnatural.