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serious question/confusion regarding accuracy and gunnery

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Commando / Mercenary
serious question/confusion regarding accuracy and gunnery

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
10.31.2012 , 06:44 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by DariusCalera View Post
Both our ranged and tech attacks do benefit from accuracy. After 100% accuracy is achieved, anything beyond that adds to armor penetration which helps out tech attacks.
That's not true and hasn't been true for over a year. Redundant accuracy provides no benefit whatsoever. The "reduced defense" that is described refers to a reduction in the target's defense chance (re: the chance that someone has to make you miss with an attack), not a reduction in the target's armor rating. It's for this explicit reason that you'll never see an intelligent DPS Sage/Sorc with any accuracy: all of their attacks are Force attacks and, since they start off with 100% hit chance and NPCs have no default Resist chance, they get no benefit from it *whatsoever*.

Quote:
Our most damaging attacks are our ranged attacks, Full Auto and HiB, and unless someone is doing something drastically wrong, or unless it was nothing but a zerg attack by handfuls of weak mobs, these two attacks are going to be doing more damage that Demo Round, Grav Round, Inc Grenade, Pulse Cannon, and Sticky Grenade combined.
Actually checking out the various parses for Gunnery Commandos on TORParse, it's pretty obvious that ranged attacks (Full Auto + HiB + Hammer Shot) comprise roughly 50% of total damage and Tech attacks (Grav Round, Demo Round) comprise the other 50%. Full Auto hits like a truck and comes up quite often, causing it to provide the single largest portion of overall damage, but HiB doesn't comprise nearly the same degree of total damage dealt thanks to its CD. Demo Round hits harder than HiB, by a surprisingly substantial margin, even though it's on the same CD, and Grav Round is your default spam attack (and should be used 5 times every 15 seconds and, discounting alacrity, accounts for upwards of half of your actual time). Like I've been assuming, it's a 50/50 split that lends credence to my assessment that accuracy is partially wasted since it only benefits 50% of your actual damage. You may not see great big angry numbers like you do out of an HiB crit or get to laugh while a target literally melts while you wail on him with a CoF Full Auto when you use your Tech attacks, but they're used often enough and hit hard enough that they make up fully half of your total damage dealt.
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oaceen's Avatar


oaceen
10.31.2012 , 08:16 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
It's about basic theorycrafting and logic. If 50% of your DPS doesn't benefit from a stat that already has questionable DPS value, then there is some logical foundation to the idea that getting rid of it to improve your DPS.
i can understand that you have a solid understanding of game mechanics and theorycrafting and can contribute to this conversation, but a lot of the assertions you're making about gunnery rotations and mechanics of the class simply aren't true (like having to use 5 grav rounds every 15s or hail of bolts being the highest contributor of AOE dmg rather than the lowest).



also, i think it's misleading to say that accuracy 'only' affects 50% of gunnery's damage and surge/alacrity will affect everything.
surge only affects crits, which are about 1/3 of all attacks and an extra 15% bonus crit chance on grav round

alacrity affects grav round and full auto (which together are about 65% of my total damage)


i think everyone can agree that the OP's argument, that one can hit every attack without any accuracy and switching out accuracy for power and crit, is rather absurd, so i don't think anyone can really say that accuracy has questionable value.


but honestly, i don't think any argument by itself can be made that alacrity or surge are more useful than accuracy.
i do however, think that tests could potentially be done to determine if surge or alacrity will help more, but as far as theorycrafting goes:

changing out accuracy for surge is most likely not going to have a positive impact. it is very easy to reach 10% accuracy and 25% surge by splitting the itemization evenly, so exchanging 10% accuracy will gain only about 5% surge. 5% bonus to crits is simply not going to make up for and surpass a drop of 5% in overall dps
tests could show otherwise, but the logic isn't there to support it.


exchanging 10% accuracy will net about 10% alacrity, and alacrity will speed up the cast times of grav round and full auto. grav round and full auto together make up ~65% of my overall damage, so that's certainly more than 50%
it's safe to say that all things being equal, alacrity will have a bigger impact on dps than accuracy.

however, commandos need to stay above 8 ammo because they have a tiered ammo regen system.
another variable is the long-standing discussion about whether or not 4% alacrity, 5% alacrity for 6s on crits, or 2% alacrity with 5% alacrity half the time on crits is the best way to spec for gunnery (and with that in mind, if adding alacrity beyond it would be more beneficial than keeping the accuracy)

it could go either way. tests certainly could show that alacrity if more beneficial than accuracy, but, because of that ammo regen mechanic, personal choice in skill setup, and familiarity with 2-7% alacrity, one would be hard-pressed to simply state that adding alacrity in lieu of accuracy will make a huge difference in dps without actually testing it out.



and then, all of that said, it might be better to replace surge instead of accuracy.
i find that highly doubtful though; just making a point that a lot of theorycrafting can be thrown around, but i think it'll be very difficult for anyone to make a solid argument to go against the commonly held belief that one should itemize accuracy up to 10% and put the rest into surge without posting some logs

DariusCalera's Avatar


DariusCalera
10.31.2012 , 11:06 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Actually checking out the various parses for Gunnery Commandos on TORParse, it's pretty obvious that ranged attacks (Full Auto + HiB + Hammer Shot) comprise roughly 50% of total damage and Tech attacks (Grav Round, Demo Round) comprise the other 50%. Full Auto hits like a truck and comes up quite often, causing it to provide the single largest portion of overall damage, but HiB doesn't comprise nearly the same degree of total damage dealt thanks to its CD. Demo Round hits harder than HiB, by a surprisingly substantial margin, even though it's on the same CD, and Grav Round is your default spam attack (and should be used 5 times every 15 seconds and, discounting alacrity, accounts for upwards of half of your actual time). Like I've been assuming, it's a 50/50 split that lends credence to my assessment that accuracy is partially wasted since it only benefits 50% of your actual damage. You may not see great big angry numbers like you do out of an HiB crit or get to laugh while a target literally melts while you wail on him with a CoF Full Auto when you use your Tech attacks, but they're used often enough and hit hard enough that they make up fully half of your total damage dealt.
There are also parses that show ranged doing far more damage than tech. In some cases 20% more.

Whether or not they make up half of your total damage is totally reliant on the procs of CoF and if the individual is using FA every time that it is off of its cool down.

Since FA is the most damaging attack that gunny commandos have, why hamper it by not allowing it to actually do its full damage?

I will agree the accuracy is wasted on half of a commando's attacks.

But not on half of it's damage.

PanzerJagdhund's Avatar


PanzerJagdhund
11.01.2012 , 01:52 AM | #14
FYI, you do not want alacrity on a Gunnery Commando. It actually hurts FA more than anything, as FA does damage by the second.
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Jherad's Avatar


Jherad
11.01.2012 , 08:28 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by PanzerJagdhund View Post
FYI, you do not want alacrity on a Gunnery Commando. It actually hurts FA more than anything, as FA does damage by the second.
Uhh, no.

FA does its damage in 3 ticks. By default this is spread over three seconds, but can be sped up. In no way is it harmed by alacrity (although other than tree points, I wouldn't bother taking any alacrity as the benefit is minor).
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wrathchildd's Avatar


wrathchildd
11.01.2012 , 10:38 AM | #16
I think I get the general consensus. For the record if your re-read my post it was theorycrafting question for the community. You could conceivably swap out the Advanced Inititative Enhancements for Advanced Asaault Enhancements. The question is whether giving up the potentially 150 points of accuracy assuming (3) is worth the crit gain. And I see that the general consensus from the community is no.

Didn't come here to start a flame war simply posing a theorycrafting question to the community.

oaceen's Avatar


oaceen
11.01.2012 , 12:35 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by wrathchildd View Post
I think I get the general consensus. For the record if your re-read my post it was theorycrafting question for the community. You could conceivably swap out the Advanced Inititative Enhancements for Advanced Asaault Enhancements. The question is whether giving up the potentially 150 points of accuracy assuming (3) is worth the crit gain. And I see that the general consensus from the community is no.

Didn't come here to start a flame war simply posing a theorycrafting question to the community.
i don't think anyone felt that you did, and honestly, i like when discussions like these happen so i and everyone else can get a clearer understanding of game mechanics and play their class better, however they choose to do so.



also, the swap you are suggesting is power AND accuracy for crit AND surge
you are not swapping accuracy for crit

all dps/healing enhancements have 3 stat slots

the first slot will always have endurance and only endurance. it's only relation to other stats is how much endurance vs how much of other stats you have
the second slot will always have power OR crit
the third slot will have either alacrity, accuracy, OR surge

1: endurance
2: power / crit
3: accuracy / alacrity / surge

so that said, you can ONLY trade accuracy for either alacrity, surge, NOT crit or power.
similarly, you can only trade power for crit (and vice-versa), not for alacrity, surge, or accuracy

you can of course make multiple stat swaps with one enhancement swap, such as the one you suggested, swapping power for crit and accuracy for surge.



applying all of this to the theorycrafting you presented in the thread, the real question is: is accuracy less useful than adding more alacrity or surge?
i think that it's a valid discussion that could use some tests (though i'm fine with going with common knowledge myself), but your guildmate who suggested that he went with all crit instead of accuracy simply doesn't know how itemization works. if it's working for him, more power to him, but i wouldn't take what he's saying at face value.

Utorian's Avatar


Utorian
11.02.2012 , 06:28 AM | #18
This question re acuracy has been asked allot in my guild recently. So between my self and 3 other commandos. (Myself using a Vanguard DPS and Commando) We played arround with acuracy. We have tried varying accuracy values from 90% to 100%.

We have all seemed to find that the magic number lies at arround 98%. At this value during our operations parses we noticed the only avoids we see are usualy on Hammer shot. Any lower than 98% and we then start to also see misses/avoids on full auto and HiB. When we went to 100% then no avoids seen on anything.

Now we are still working on this and watching the parses on each fight to make sure that 98% is enough, but so far its looking good. Hammer shot misses we can live with. Any FA or HiB misses then we re asses.

DocHaliday's Avatar


DocHaliday
11.02.2012 , 11:29 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Utorian View Post
This question re acuracy has been asked allot in my guild recently. So between my self and 3 other commandos. (Myself using a Vanguard DPS and Commando) We played arround with acuracy. We have tried varying accuracy values from 90% to 100%.

We have all seemed to find that the magic number lies at arround 98%. At this value during our operations parses we noticed the only avoids we see are usualy on Hammer shot. Any lower than 98% and we then start to also see misses/avoids on full auto and HiB. When we went to 100% then no avoids seen on anything.

Now we are still working on this and watching the parses on each fight to make sure that 98% is enough, but so far its looking good. Hammer shot misses we can live with. Any FA or HiB misses then we re asses.
I've also been playing around with accuracy, and right now at 99.89% the only misses I've seen in my parses are from hammer shot. I've also taken all the alacrity skills in both the combat medic tree (first responder) and the 4% skill in the assault tree, no additional alacrity on gear. The big difference I've seen is with FA channeling at 2.7 instead of 2.9 and a minimal change with grav round. Also, this does cause a need to watch your ammo a little more, but that's what the recharge cells and reserve power cells are for.

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oaceen
11.02.2012 , 03:09 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by DocHaliday View Post
I've also been playing around with accuracy, and right now at 99.89% the only misses I've seen in my parses are from hammer shot. I've also taken all the alacrity skills in both the combat medic tree (first responder) and the 4% skill in the assault tree, no additional alacrity on gear. The big difference I've seen is with FA channeling at 2.7 instead of 2.9 and a minimal change with grav round. Also, this does cause a need to watch your ammo a little more, but that's what the recharge cells and reserve power cells are for.
so you're not taking demo round?

i don't really see how the boost to alacrity is a fair tradeoff for the highest-hitting attack we have