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George Zoeller: PVP vs PVE Balance

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
George Zoeller: PVP vs PVE Balance

Technohic's Avatar

04.10.2012 , 06:32 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Michaelphoenix View Post
i smell a load of bull here... and i grew up on a farm...i KNOW what bull c**p smells like
Sorry. I seemed to have stepped in it when I came into this thread. Hard to avoid.

LeperJack's Avatar

04.10.2012 , 11:02 AM | #22
I'm not sure about subrosian's software, one way or another, but I will say that from the posts of his I've read (more than a few) he generally knows what he's talking about and doesn't bother to post unless he does.

30% does seem a bit high, but it could also be assuming things like bona fortuna for all test subjects. Certain classes have a very steep level of difficulty in use, and of those classes, some have better returns on "mastery" of that difficulty than others. (e.g. class A does 1000 DPS at low mastery level and is difficult to master. "fully" mastered it is capable of 1400 DPS. Class B does 900 DPS at low mastery levels and does 1200 DPS "fully" mastered, again with a sharply inclined learning curve.)

Without a peek at the data, 30% would be difficult to agree with for me, but I think it's clear that something needs to change, "5%" is an inaccurate statement in practical use (i.e. play vs. beating on a stationary dummy with no mechanics that halt damage output as standard PvE and PvP contain) and that while the developers may not be maliciously spreading misinformation, they may not have the best handle on how certain parts of their game actually work.
"I think I know enough of hate / To say that for destruction ice / Is also great / And would suffice."
--Robert Frost

Rabbitfoot's Avatar

04.11.2012 , 06:02 AM | #23
Yea analyzing the network traffic (tcpdump) should be doable if its not encrypted and I know of no games that use encryption (too much overhead). Not saying its working but if you cant analyze the data already out there you shouldnt be talking here.

Thanks for putting dummy numbers in here I hadnt seen that before. Can you give url for reference?

subrosian's Avatar

04.15.2012 , 01:48 AM | #24
So, an update, I gave up on playing my Operative. It has a role as a healer, but that's not a role I want to play. I'm playing a Marauder right now, because any nerf in the short term to Marauders is going to be in the form of knocking down their survivability, which won't remove them from raids.

Operatives won't get a buff in the short term because as long as stealth is an integral part of their gameplay, people will rage at the Stealth + Stun combination and they will not be allowed to have the DPS to translate that into a kill.

Long term, I hope the class is fixed. As is, it's simply not enjoyable to play in a raiding environment. The fact that your single target damage, especially in burst scenarios, is so low, and that stealth plays so little a role in raiding, just combines to make it "meh". Until the PVE and PVP aspects of the game are split apart more firmly (including ability damage - why can't an attack do X damage to a boss but Y damage to a player?) we're going to be a class in poor shape

Silversable's Avatar

04.15.2012 , 04:10 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Shadpwfox View Post
Secondly if you were an expert you'd know that it's impossible for them to make a buff applicable only to PvE coding doesn't work like that
Yeah, right. Because taunts work exactly the same in PvE and PvP, as we all know :/

Rompdomp's Avatar

04.16.2012 , 12:03 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Tyrias View Post
I know this isn't an answer to your question at all, but really, I just don't get why games insist on having stealth classes. They are "literally" impossible to balance across both PvE and PvP (As a lesser but still disappointing element, they also usually encourage ganking behaviour "Wait till they've aggroed a group of mobs" in open world PvP too).

If a class has stealth and needs to utilise it in PvP to match up to other classes, they will be at a distinct disadvantage in PvE content where Boss fights last 5+ minutes and you can only enter stealth when the cooldown on you Hide-in-plain-sight type skill is available.

If a class has stealth but does comparable damage to DPS classes in PvE, they become monsters in PvP, stealthing in on targets and destroying them because they always get the tactical advantage of first hit, as well as having comparable Damage output.

It's the same in other situations. CC classes also get a raw deal. You have more CC, you get less damage to compensate else you'd be overpowered in PvP. But because you have less damage, you're sub-par for boss fights, because they're pretty much all immune to any CC you can throw at them.

Same applies for classes that are superior at AoE and inferior at ST damage. I laugh at what's happening with Sages/Sorcs (because if I didn't, I'd cry). They are an "AoE dps and CC class". They already have poor single target burst because of their CC, and now they'll be losing their better AoE functionality (which, because their ST is SO poor, was also arguably the best ST damage too).

The only way I've seen it even attempted to be balance in other games it to have a stance that locks out one feature entirely (such as stealth) and buffs the damage output, intended to fix the PvE shortcomings.

But that's the best fix there is. When they "finally" get around to Dual/Multi-spec, having the option to go for a one DPS spec for PvE and a Stealth spec for PvP (in the case of stealth classes) is the only other thing I can think of to circumvent it. And that says it all... the fact that you have to "circumvent" a problem instead of being able to make it work.
I think you hit the nail on the head sir