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The Jedi Knight, and Sith Warrior classes need a huge buff.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
The Jedi Knight, and Sith Warrior classes need a huge buff.
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LordPoloSWTOR's Avatar


LordPoloSWTOR
01.08.2012 , 12:00 AM | #251
Quote:
You hurt my head.

I would much rather have a full blown CC then a snares and moves that dont work in PVP.
Would you like with that a skill that one shot people while they are stun and wins the game for you?

Its team effort not 1v1.

Did you ever noticed a combo Tank + Healer which can outlast a very long period of time before dying imagine adding some dps parterns to it.

Juggs/ or jedi mirror do not need buffs. Snare is a blight but you don't see it with your class atm.

As for marauders cannot say much expect fix the skills as intended and see in the futur how it works out. ( I don't play one)

Noth's Avatar


Noth
01.08.2012 , 12:29 AM | #252
Quote: Originally Posted by LordPoloSWTOR View Post
Would you like with that a skill that one shot people while they are stun and wins the game for you?

Its team effort not 1v1.

Did you ever noticed a combo Tank + Healer which can outlast a very long period of time before dying imagine adding some dps parterns to it.

Juggs/ or jedi mirror do not need buffs. Snare is a blight but you don't see it with your class atm.

As for marauders cannot say much expect fix the skills as intended and see in the futur how it works out. ( I don't play one)
Until a dps duo 4 shots his healer then the tank is just SoL.
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tXHereticXt's Avatar


tXHereticXt
01.08.2012 , 02:52 AM | #253
Not saying I agree or disagree with the OP, they do become primarily reliant on Quinn when soloing making the rest of our companions useless or less favored. The versatility is more like a race to trigger as many CDs as possible to give yourself a fighting chance - however maps like Belsalvis are designed specifically to endorse teamwork. A Jugg shouldn't be running in to tank two elites, three strongs, and two minions; you need to work on CCs and controlling the engagement.


But quoted bellow...
Quote: Originally Posted by LordPoloSWTOR View Post
Lvl 50 - in full epics lvl 50 mixed pvp.

You realize that puts you over the learning curve right? You aren't an exception, you've got better stats than most people who play strictly PVE and work on scrounging for upgrades. So I hardly consider you an exception :P

brandonspikes's Avatar


brandonspikes
01.08.2012 , 03:04 AM | #254
Quote: Originally Posted by tXHereticXt View Post
Not saying I agree or disagree with the OP, they do become primarily reliant on Quinn when soloing making the rest of our companions useless or less favored. The versatility is more like a race to trigger as many CDs as possible to give yourself a fighting chance - however maps like Belsalvis are designed specifically to endorse teamwork. A Jugg shouldn't be running in to tank two elites, three strongs, and two minions; you need to work on CCs and controlling the engagement.


But quoted bellow...



You realize that puts you over the learning curve right? You aren't an exception, you've got better stats than most people who play strictly PVE and work on scrounging for upgrades. So I hardly consider you an exception :P
Warriors do not have a CC.

Sivn's Avatar


Sivn
01.08.2012 , 07:29 AM | #255
Compared to my BH powertech i levelled to 50 first, the Juggernaught is definately weaker.

Its a combination of things.

A lack of AoE as 90% of the mobs we face are packs and we have 1 good AoE on a 15sec cooldown and a rubbish aoe that tickles enemys (but all classes get one of these). IMO we could do with a frontal cone attack ala Shockwave from WoW warriors.

Lack of movement speed. Considering the lack of actual AoE skills we have i would have expected some increased movement speed to make up for that, so we can move from mob to mob quicker (force jump having a minimum range and we use it to start the attack anyway).

A lack of CC and stuns. We have force choke which takes us out of the combat too which isnt a good thing, but its a cool ability.

We have 2 abilities which are situational and restricted by effects affecting the mobs.

Most of the "hard" hitting abilities really dont seem to hit that hard in all honesty. Also Sunder imo needs to do more damage as a main ability .

Channeled attacks for a melee class = silly design UNLESS your able to move without breaking the channel.

Poor, uninspiring skill trees. Tiny insignificant dots as talents? Boring talents that have minimal increases at best and generally poor talents.


Towards the end of beta the devs said that Warriors/knights were next in line for a revamp but it never came.

IMO once the above are tweaked the Knights/Warriors will feel a whole lot better. Nothing major needs changing, just slight buffs, tweaks and changes here and there.

Also at high levels many mobs have a sunder ability so your armor will feel like paper when 3-4 mobs have it on you, and most strong and many normal mobs have knockbacks and knockdowns.....but these affect all melee classes.
The game really is tougher for melee, a natural rule in MMOs but not usually to this extent.

Lothok's Avatar


Lothok
01.08.2012 , 08:09 AM | #256
Pvp wise, I wouldnt mind the extremely low damage, if it meant I could actually spec tank and not be squishier than damage specced sorcs/assassins/bounty hunters.

I wanted to play tank in pvp, guard people, taunt, stuff like that, but that feels more and more pointless since the dps classes have much better survivability.

The only class that squisher, in my experience, is smuggler, in both its variations.

And I might be mistaken but this, but I swear I`ve seen tankspecced vanguards that can do some pretty decent burst damage.

GeorgZoeller's Avatar


GeorgZoeller
01.10.2012 , 02:04 PM | #257 This is the last staff post in this thread.  
Hi guys,

There are many different subjects discussed in this thread and I would like to take the opportunity to give you some information on the topics at hand.

First off, we currently have no indication that any class needs a huge buff. Class balance is defined by the interaction between classes and changes we make to one class will, inevitably, move the balance towards or from other classes. Our data and testing currently indicates that the Juggernaut and Guardian AC could use some buffing up in two areas where we see them underperforming against our expectations.

Here are some of the things we're planning to roll out in the short term specifically regarding Sith Warriors and Jedi Knights :
  • Mobility/Anti Kiting (PvP) We agree with the sentiment voiced by the community that some Guardians and Juggernauts have to work harder than other classes to stay within effective combat range, putting them at a disadvantage. We intend to address this in an upcoming patch where, as a first step, Force Push will clear the cooldown of Force Leap, granting for more reliable in combat pursuit capabilities to the Advanced Class. Further changes will be made if necessary.
  • DPS spec survivability (PvP and PvE) The DPS specs on Guardian and Juggernaut are performing to our expectations when it comes to the ability to create damage, especially of the burst variety. However their survivability is lagging behind our expectations, especially in the later game, and we are going to start addressing that particular issue in an upcoming patch.
Our attention to the class obviously won't stop here. Balancing MMOs is a never ending endeavor and we're in for the long haul. For example, we are certainly aware that the Marauder and Sentinel are very gameplay intensive classes with some of the most complex rotations in the game. While we are currently looking at quality of life and usability improvements to increase the class' playability without compromising the unique aspects of the class, we don't have anything specific to announce just yet. We do however anticipate that some of the combat responsiveness improvements (AKA 'ability delay' - more on that here) being worked on by our engineering team will specifically aid both Marauder and Sentinel.

In regards to PvE balance, any place in the game where our data shows significant issues with the balance tuning for one or more classes or specs are of course also being looked at.

For example, Jedi Knights will be pleased to hear that we are working on tuning the final mission in their class chain to provide a better, more fun and more reliably solvable challenge (see a post from another member of my team here). Currently a large percentage of players bring a friend to solve this mission, which, while social and often more fun, is not in line with our stated goal of allowing players to progress solo through their class arc if they desire to do so. We're also looking at some companions with a critical eye to improve their viability for certain role/companion combinations.

I would also like to give you some general understanding about approach to class balancing and how you can aid us with your feedback:
  • Now that we're out of the first few weeks of launch madness, you will see class and combat balance issues addressed with increased frequency. Larger scale gameplay changes and features are more likely to coincide with major content releases, but smaller scale changes and improvements can be expected to become part of our regular update schedule.
  • Statements that we hate a specific class or faction, or that we intentionally underbalance certain classes to make it less popular are conspiracy theory territory. We have nothing to gain from such an approach we want players to pick the class and faction they want to play and have confidence that they are able to perform their chosen role in the game. Anything that comes in the way of that goal is considered a balance issue for us.
  • We make our balancing decisions based on a combination of internal and external testing and metrics. We don't make decisions based on who is the loudest on the forums. Community feedback is valuable in bringing issues to our attention and even to highlight possible solutions, which means that well written, constructive posts are the most effective way to communicate your wishes and feedback to us, rather than petitions and calls to nerf specific classes.
  • Please understand that balance issues during the leveling process are different than issues at level 50 and are handled in different ways. If you feel your class has issues during your journey to 50, especially communicate the level range and area of the game where you are experiencing issues to aid our investigations. Player versus Player situations in during the leveling process are not always balanced at every level (a mathematical impossibility), but we are always willing to investigate.
  • Just because we haven't mentioned the specific issue close to your heart in a post (such as the one above) doesn't mean we are unaware of it or that we don't want to address it. It would be impractical for us to comment on all investigations currently in the pipeline. That said, we definitely want to take a more open approach in regards to upcoming class changes.

Finally, I'd like to acknowledge, again, that we do understand that there is a desire for players to get more detailed information what happens to their character in combat. We agree with those requests and are working on various ways to, optionally, get more detailed data on your combat performance.

Thanks for your feedback!

-- Georg

Soonerjohn's Avatar


Soonerjohn
01.10.2012 , 06:58 PM | #258
I like the idea of refreshing leap, but using an ability that pushes your target out of combat range to reset it seems like a wash in uptime.

I like the idea of simply putting unstoppable as a first tier talent. To give Vengeance specs an offset and some desire to be played, add a reflect to shien form. I believe the lore supports this.

Anyway, just some ideas.
Zin - Bounty Hunter of Vulkar Highway(╯)╯︵ ┻━┻

Mazzrad's Avatar


Mazzrad
01.10.2012 , 06:58 PM | #259
Juggernauts get a mobility buff but Marauders are fine ? What ? Juggernauts have much more CC and a great knockback, Marauders don't. 80% of the time you get knocked into the fire / pit / acid as a Marauder but you're one of the very few AC which can't knock anybody anywhere and only got a channeled CC, not even a stun or knockback. This is such a big issue and you don't adress it at all.

So when a Juggernaut gets knocked into the acid or whatever he has a charge to get out and he needs a buff to be more mobile. A Marauder gets knocked into the acid and only has his charge to get out very fast but he doesn't need a buff. Yeah... I would be really thankful to have the CC immunity the Jugs have after the charge...
Ocior

Masrad

getdownsb's Avatar


getdownsb
01.10.2012 , 06:59 PM | #260
Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgZoeller View Post
Hi guys,

There are many different subjects discussed in this thread and I would like to take the opportunity to give you some information on the topics at hand.

First off, we currently have no indication that any class needs a huge buff. Class balance is defined by the interaction between classes and changes we make to one class will, inevitably, move the balance towards or from other classes. Our data and testing currently indicates that the Juggernaut and Guardian AC could use some buffing up in two areas where we see them underperforming against our expectations.

Here are some of the things we're planning to roll out in the short term specifically regarding Sith Warriors and Jedi Knights :
  • Mobility/Anti Kiting (PvP) We agree with the sentiment voiced by the community that some Guardians and Juggernauts have to work harder than other classes to stay within effective combat range, putting them at a disadvantage. We intend to address this in an upcoming patch where, as a first step, Force Push will clear the cooldown of Force Leap, granting for more reliable in combat pursuit capabilities to the Advanced Class. Further changes will be made if necessary.
  • DPS spec survivability (PvP and PvE) The DPS specs on Guardian and Juggernaut are performing to our expectations when it comes to the ability to create damage, especially of the burst variety. However their survivability is lagging behind our expectations, especially in the later game, and we are going to start addressing that particular issue in an upcoming patch.

-- Georg
So you're buffing Juggernaut to be even more effective offensively and have even more survivability while leaving Marauder with it's wet noodle and paper bag armor? Am I reading this correctly?

I'm also quite confused as to why the tank spec'ed juggernauts are able to do more damage then the marauders. Going up against the tanks in warzones is extremely difficult because of all the control they have, combined with damage that is on par with the marauder damage, combined with their heavy armor and survivability.

Another point of contention, why is the marauder the only class that has a different armor type then it's sister AC? Power tech's and Mercs share the same heavy armor. Why have you seen fit to give mercs access to quite possibly the easiest damage and abilities in one button, as well as fully capable single target healing, survivability, cc, two knockbacks and heavy armor? I mean in one button a merc does what takes us 6+ and does it better. Hit tracermissle and they do great damage, from range, debuff armor, and buff/proc their two higher damage abilities.

For example, to do similar the Annihilation Marauder has to:

Charge > Deadly saber > Battering assault > cloak of pain > rapture > Annihilate > snare > figure out what to do next in a unlimited possible outcomes.

They have to do all this while:
- Staying within melee range
- Overcoming knock-backs, snares and roots
- Relying on a tank to give them the survivability of their target
- Relying on a healer to give them the heals their target has themselves
- Managing the extremely awkward rage resource mechanic
- Managing multiple interrupts because they can not dish out the damage that a merc arsenal can (which they can do 0-30m), nor can they take said damage like a arsenal can

It's virtually the same with every other class in the game. Tanks out last your damage while doing perfectly good damage themselves, healers out heal your damage, ranged classes knock you back and root you, then kill you before you can have much effect, burst classes stun you and kill you before you can do anything about it.

This class requires the player to be either over-geared or have a massive skill advantage over their competition just to be significant. Add to that the garbage animation system, instant abilities being interrupted, ability delay and animations stuttering and you get a class that gives me no reason to pay $15/mo for the punishment of playing it.
Rincon
Helm of Graush