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New Subber - Holy Trinity Concerns


wolveen

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Hi Guys,

I just bought this game and so far I am having a blast!

The story, the music, the graphics, the options, companions, and the Voice acting is just great!!!

I really enjoy this game, I am glad I finally gave it go!

 

However I noticed today that I was kicked out of a group because I was the wrong type of Bounty Hunter?

Apparently they wanted a healer. It was done pretty rudely, iirc it went like this

"Are you a healer?"

I said "I can try"

"OK so you are not specced as a healer"

So and So has initiated to Vote Kick you from the group.

Vote passed

 

What?!

 

So now I am thinking this awesome game seems to have the old school mentality of the Holy Trinity needed in order to group and enjoy the content.

 

It also has these "Heroic Areas" from Everquest 2 where you are locked out of some areas if you are not in a group.

 

I am not trashing this game at all so don't go there, I really like it and I am (was) considering subbing up for a year.

I am just concerned after today's revelation and seeing these 'heroic areas' how much of the game will I be locked out of or will have to pass over if I am not one of Holy Trinity that is needed, I kind of like rolling with my own RP character. I didn't think Modern MMOs (at least all the ones I am currently playing) still went the Holy Trinity formula.

 

Is this Holy Trinity mechanic present throughout the game?

 

Thanks in advance!

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Yes, the trinity concept is in play. On the flip side, many of the "Heroics" can be soloed (though not all) and if you call out your corner of the trinity when requesting a group for a heroic then you can avoid this issue. A word of note, make sure that when you are using the LFG tool you mark only what you can do. Sometimes the LFG tool just picks up on what you might choose not on what you did choose.
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Thank you for the insight and tips!

I will play out the free month of sub and hopefully have a better gauge of the game by then.

Seems there are quite a few trolls, griefers, etc on the Drummond planet but I heard it trickles away after that.

 

I hope it does this game is really good.

 

I am usually an alta-aholic but this game really engages me in the story to where I just want to see how it plays out for my character almost like watching a movie.

It would be a shame that they would cling onto the old ways of group mechanics instead of embracing the modern mechanics.

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It would be a shame that they would cling onto the old ways of group mechanics instead of embracing the modern mechanics.

 

why would that be a shame?

specialising is a good thing, that way you can concentrate on what suits you the best, and let someone else fit the role you dislike.

that's the way I see it although I enjoy playing all three Roles.

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why would that be a shame?

specialising is a good thing, that way you can concentrate on what suits you the best, and let someone else fit the role you dislike.

that's the way I see it although I enjoy playing all three Roles.

Disrespectfully disagree. I find small-group content way more engaging than Operations, because I get to multitask way more.

 

For example, my newest Operative used to do all kinds of epic stunts of rolling into cover (to avoid an incoming salvo of Snipes/Unloads), cycling debilitate and flashbang, doing on-the-spot healing and some spike damage with ExProbe, Backstab, Shiv, Snipe pre-20 (like world 4-man heroics - loved Hadra's defeat because there were so many patrolling droids and so many opportunities to wipe, yet so many opportunities to come out on top). But as I neared 40, off-spec activities started to make less and less impact on group performance to the point of not being worth the effort. I either kept healing, or kept stabbing, depending on the spec, occasionally tossing stuns/flashbangs here and there. In Operations, I was basically reduced to doing one thing while dodging encounter-based stuff. Not heroic. Not epic. Not exciting.

 

Now, then, the abolition of roles is another dangerous extreme (like the guy above mentioned) - but the best thrill, the best dynamics, the best balance of specialization and general usefulness, I've experienced at lower/mid levels. Hyperspecialization makes the experience much, much less than what it could be.

Edited by Helig
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If you don't like the Holy Trinity, then go and play DDO.

Why ? Because it always requires 4 people, not 3.

SWTOR is completely missing a Trapper. And ANY raid or group without a good Trapper is going to wipe in DDO, especially in raids.

Me, I'm not a believer in the Holy Trinity. The Holy Trinity is an insult to my abilities, because it is imho far too shortsighted and far too simple mechanics. Only tanking, damaging and healing, nothing more ? Boring, imho.

I play SWTOR because of the story, that's why I enjoy it. And because I'm a Star Wars fan. Had SWG been F2P, I had been in it, too.

 

My advice is : If you do group quests, go tell them what kind of character you are playing.

 

And : Put them into your ignore list if they votekicked you.

Me, I wouldn't want to play with people like this again.

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It's just about the only thing about this game I don't really like, but it is a biggie: The gameplay.

 

I'm not a fan of traditional MMO gameplay (most of all the trinity, but not only that), and it can't die soon enough as far as I'm concerned. Everything else about the game is what keeps me here.

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It's just about the only thing about this game I don't really like, but it is a biggie: The gameplay.

 

I'm not a fan of traditional MMO gameplay (most of all the trinity, but not only that), and it can't die soon enough as far as I'm concerned. Everything else about the game is what keeps me here.

Problem is - there are no better alternatives. The 4+role division is clunky as far as group composition is concerned, and the complete lack of trinity turns PvE into zergfest and reduces the tactical and strategic components of PvP.

 

What I really don't like is hyperspecialization that's forced on the characters. The idea of "soft trinity" is much more appealing than what we have now. Although, it used to be a lot worse in EQ, Vanilla WoW (TBC, to some degree), where healers and tanks practically counldn't solo because their damage was so miserable it took forever to kill anything.

 

ToR was definitely going in the right direction when it "softened up" the role division, but, in my opinion, it didn't soften it enough.

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Disrespectfully disagree. I find small-group content way more engaging than Operations, because I get to multitask way more.

 

For example, my newest Operative used to do all kinds of epic stunts of rolling into cover (to avoid an incoming salvo of Snipes/Unloads), cycling debilitate and flashbang, doing on-the-spot healing and some spike damage with ExProbe, Backstab, Shiv, Snipe pre-20 (like world 4-man heroics - loved Hadra's defeat because there were so many patrolling droids and so many opportunities to wipe, yet so many opportunities to come out on top). But as I neared 40, off-spec activities started to make less and less impact on group performance to the point of not being worth the effort. I either kept healing, or kept stabbing, depending on the spec, occasionally tossing stuns/flashbangs here and there. In Operations, I was basically reduced to doing one thing while dodging encounter-based stuff. Not heroic. Not epic. Not exciting.

 

Now, then, the abolition of roles is another dangerous extreme (like the guy above mentioned) - but the best thrill, the best dynamics, the best balance of specialization and general usefulness, I've experienced at lower/mid levels. Hyperspecialization makes the experience much, much less than what it could be.

 

 

you have a good point there I wouldn't mind higher single target DPS on my heal specialised scoundrel while I'm only healing with HOTs but if we start to expect Healers to DPS as well as heal what will the DD's/Tank's get as added responsibility's in exchange?

or are you saying we should buff the group DPS without altering the encounters to keep the challenge as it is?

I think clear responsibility's are better.

as an example in TFB first boss if I say "someone has to stand in these purple fields to grab the attention of the Adds" it will almost certainly lead to a wipe in a Group that isn't familiar with the fight and one another even in story mode. if I look at the OPS frame and call out a name at random it's free loot.

 

if everyone was expected to burst heal as necessary and kite Adds while avoiding AOE circles and keeping their full DPS on the Boss (not to mention being thrown around and stunned half the time) the Skill requirement would go through the roof.

I'd rather do neglectable DPS while healing to keep myself from being bored on a good day, then make it impossible to do what's expected from me on a bad one.

 

 

don't misunderstand me I'd take more DPS in a heartbeat,

but I don't think they can do it without overpowering one role or putting a much higher demand on the Player behind it then on the others. (I'm against that. since atm I have at best a random as a Co-Healer at worst one of our DD's substituting for one. I have to work hard enough to get them to Heal as it is)

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One nice thing is that often companions can make up for players if they're geared enough. I recently ran a level 50 Hard Mode with a healer who had absolutely no clue what he was doing. I'm not a particularly squishy tank, but we were wiping on trash.

 

Kicked him, a DPS yanked out a moderately-geared healing companion, and we blazed through.

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you have a good point there I wouldn't mind higher single target DPS on my heal specialised scoundrel while I'm only healing with HOTs but if we start to expect Healers to DPS as well as heal what will the DD's/Tank's get as added responsibility's in exchange?

or are you saying we should buff the group DPS without altering the encounters to keep the challenge as it is?

I think clear responsibility's are better.

as an example in TFB first boss if I say "someone has to stand in these purple fields to grab the attention of the Adds" it will almost certainly lead to a wipe in a Group that isn't familiar with the fight and one another even in story mode. if I look at the OPS frame and call out a name at random it's free loot.

 

if everyone was expected to burst heal as necessary and kite Adds while avoiding AOE circles and keeping their full DPS on the Boss (not to mention being thrown around and stunned half the time) the Skill requirement would go through the roof.

I'd rather do neglectable DPS while healing to keep myself from being bored on a good day, then make it impossible to do what's expected from me on a bad one.

 

 

don't misunderstand me I'd take more DPS in a heartbeat,

but I don't think they can do it without overpowering one role or putting a much higher demand on the Player behind it then on the others. (I'm against that. since atm I have at best a random as a Co-Healer at worst one of our DD's substituting for one. I have to work hard enough to get them to Heal as it is)

That's the (un)necesary evil of larger-scale PvE, where the situational awareness and on-the-fly adaptability of each individual player is overshadowed by raid mechanics.

 

Let me put this straight - I find more challenge soloing 2 and 4-man heroics than running some Nightmare modes, as far as personal effort and focus are concerned. Frankly, I only raid for gear progression and for some fun voice-comm chat with the guild when we get together.

 

That's the core of the animosity between raiders and soloers. Soloers (rightfully) consider their playstyle worthy of reward because soloing difficult content requires much micromanagement, strategy and effort. Raiders (also rightfully) consider their playstyle worthy of reward because it does take effort to learn to act as one in raid environment (becomes less relevant as the guild starts to farm encounters, though). However, raiders seem reluctant to accept that there are alternative playstyles that also require skill and effort and that should be rewarded as well as raiding.

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Using CoH/V again as a example, everything I ever played could be done with any mix AT (class).

Not every class could do everything so you had to change your tactics.

If your group consisted of all "Ranged DPS" then you had to adapt but it was do able.

If your group consisted of all "Healers" then you also had to change your tactics.

 

Of course like in the example of Healers there were different types of healers : Bubblers provided shields, Empathy Healers provided more of the traditional healing Role, Dark Healers provided some controller like powers, etc.

I guess it was more dimensional.

 

Point is Holy Trinity wasn't needed, it was more efficient, but was not needed. Those who wanted the Trinity could make that group and complete the mission, those who RPed and who just wanted to group up together, a la the Avengers (No healer there!) you could and would still complete the missions. You had to only adapt your tactics.

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Point is Holy Trinity wasn't needed, it was more efficient, but was not needed. Those who wanted the Trinity could make that group and complete the mission, those who RPed and who just wanted to group up together, a la the Avengers (No healer there!) you could and would still complete the missions. You had to only adapt your tactics.

 

To take a movie and compare it to a game is not really smart (in both Star Wars triologies there were no healers only medbots)

 

How did you clear content with only healers?

Did you just bore everything to death? ;)

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Whether or not you like the "Holy Trinity", the fact of the matter is that Flashpoints in this game rely on there being a tank, a healer and 2 damage dealers in the group.

 

Having said that, at low levels you haven't really been able specialize enough in either role to really make a difference and the Flashpoints reflect that in that they are easy enough to be done as long as people do focus on their assigned (or chosen in Group Finder) task. So if a DPS Juggernaut/Guardian/Powertech/Vanguard equips a Shield Generator and stays in "Tank" stance they should have no issues tanking *IF* the DPS Sage/Sorceror/Scoundrel/Operative/Mercenary/Commando is focusing on healing and not DPSing.

 

The problems with the above is when players don't realize that Flashpoints start to REQUIRE specialization in the chosen tree at later levels (30+). Incoming damage starts to be too much for a "DPS" tank to handle because he doesn't have the necessary mitigation from talents. Incoming damage starts to be too much for a "DPS" healer to heal through because they are missing the necessary healing talents that allow them to have Heals over Time/Shorter casts/etc. Bosses start to have so much health that DPS needs the damage increasing talents to be able to take them down in a timely fashion.

 

Another thing that causes people to not realize that Flashpoints require specialization after a certain level is that the planetary [Heroic 4]s can generally be done with any class all the way up to max level as long as someone is taking damage (tanking) and someone is throwing out a heal every now and then.

 

Because of this "disconnect", some players start to run into groups in Flashpoints where things just don't work because the tank/healer are not specced for their role. This then leads to frustration due to multiple wipes and a lack of patience with those that expect to be able to do content in a role that they are not specialized for. Which then leads to a complete lack of patience (even at low levels) with those that sign up for a role when they are not specialized in it.

 

The thing to do is just "embrace" the "Holy Trinity" and decide early on what you want to do with your character. If you want to do damage, spec for that and only sign up for content as a damage dealer. The same applies to being a healer or tank: specialize in the role and sign up for that role only.

 

It really is the best for everyone's enjoyment. :)

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Problem is - there are no better alternatives. The 4+role division is clunky as far as group composition is concerned, and the complete lack of trinity turns PvE into zergfest and reduces the tactical and strategic components of PvP.

 

What I really don't like is hyperspecialization that's forced on the characters. The idea of "soft trinity" is much more appealing than what we have now. Although, it used to be a lot worse in EQ, Vanilla WoW (TBC, to some degree), where healers and tanks practically counldn't solo because their damage was so miserable it took forever to kill anything.

 

ToR was definitely going in the right direction when it "softened up" the role division, but, in my opinion, it didn't soften it enough.

 

Heck it was worse than that (at least it was a decade ago) because having two clerics in a group of six EQ1 was unheard of because the cleric class had no DPS at all (when the average DPS was 500-700, a cleric on its best day could pull 100...believe me I know because I tried). Furthermore, in EQ1 of the dozen or so classes only two could effectively solo - druid and necromancer - once you got to a certain point (low teens in level), you HAD to group to accomplish anything, which could take a long time.

 

One nice thing is that often companions can make up for players if they're geared enough. I recently ran a level 50 Hard Mode with a healer who had absolutely no clue what he was doing. I'm not a particularly squishy tank, but we were wiping on trash.

 

Kicked him, a DPS yanked out a moderately-geared healing companion, and we blazed through.

 

Well in all candor depending on the level of the area/FP, and the "skill" of the player a DPS class can fill the tank or healer roles. I've done it on a number of occasions usually where a healer or tank had to leave or DCed, the group would 3-man trash to the next boss, wait a few minutes for a replacement that never comes, and we go for it. Yes, fights take longer, and yes especially DDs that heal, need to focus on their new role, but it can be done.

 

Further, with the relatively inexpensive field respec perk (200,000 credits) and a subscription, a player can respec a character back and forth for free.

 

As for using companions in FPs, the only ones that really work are healers - DPS comps break CC, and tank comps cannot absorb damage from bosses. that being said, on move heavy fights even healer comps can be wanting (try doing Jindo Kray in HM FE with a healer comp - the companion stands in the "fire" too much and dies; or in HM MP the first two bosses - the droid that drags you in and blows up, and the laser eye guy where you have to avoid LOS).

 

Getting back to the main topic, honestly I have never played a game without the holy trinity for any length of time. I prefer to have to pick a role and develop it that way when I group, my "skill" shows and players remember me.

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To take a movie and compare it to a game is not really smart (in both Star Wars triologies there were no healers only medbots)

 

How did you clear content with only healers?

Did you just bore everything to death? ;)

 

You obviously never played COH/V lol And the Avengers Comic has an extreme lack of a "healer" in most cases too. In CoH I played a DPS class Called a Scrapper, Broad sword/Regen to be exact, not only could I kill everything in the game but due to my build I was able to tank better then any traditional tank.

 

Personally tactics and player skill play a larger role then any game mechanic does. In dark Age of Camelot it was the same I played a non traditional specced Warrior and owned every RvR battle ground and Pve raid While I was playing all based on tactical choices. In Swtor I play a hybrid Guardian I had to make some revisions to my build due to the changes with 2.0 but I have been tanking hard mode 55 flash points just fine and DPSing them as well.

 

As far as the op is concerned as this is a Bioware, EA, let alone Star wars game you are going to come across a lot of elitist while playing unfortunately that's the sad truth. Your going to have to chose whether or not you can deal with that or not, personally most days I just close my chat and play however; I am lucky and have guildies who I play with regularly and we have a TS and are able to talk with each other via that.

 

AM I saying that their are no decent open minded people in this game or in the bioware/EA/ starwars communities? No but good luck finding them a lot of them don't make their presence known simply cause of what you experienced/ are experiencing I wrote off the bioware community after the bioware social network became what it is now.

 

Good luck OP may the force be with you and all that jazz.

Edited by Kaorunandrak
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've read (note being kicked out from instance) you used group finder and qued as healer, and got kicked for not being a healer.

 

^This. If you were in a flashpoint and got put in as healer, but not specced as a healer, you deserve to be kicked. Anyone who thinks otherwise has no business doing flashpoints. Whether you like the mechanic or not or think it is fair, doesn't matter. People aren't being mean by kicking you, you just literally cannot do a flashpoint if you don't have a tank and healer specced for their appropriate roles. If this is something you don't agree with, then just don't play, or at least do flashpoints, you are just ruining for others.

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You obviously never played COH/V lol And the Avengers Comic has an extreme lack of a "healer" in most cases too. In CoH I played a DPS class Called a Scrapper, Broad sword/Regen to be exact, not only could I kill everything in the game but due to my build I was able to tank better then any traditional tank.

 

I never played it and that's why I asked.

 

To compare a comic to a game is just as ridiculous as comparing a movie to a game

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^This. If you were in a flashpoint and got put in as healer, but not specced as a healer, you deserve to be kicked. Anyone who thinks otherwise has no business doing flashpoints. Whether you like the mechanic or not or think it is fair, doesn't matter. People aren't being mean by kicking you, you just literally cannot do a flashpoint if you don't have a tank and healer specced for their appropriate roles. If this is something you don't agree with, then just don't play, or at least do flashpoints, you are just ruining for others.

 

That is not 100% accurate. Up to a point, while leveling (mid-30s to about 40), you really do not need to be specced for a given role to fill it adequately and player skill does play a part as to where the break point is. Beyond that though, because you start getting spec dedicated gear and abilities, and the content gets tougher, yes you really do need to pay more attention to what roles you choose to fill when you queue for a flashpoint.

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That is not 100% accurate. Up to a point, while leveling (mid-30s to about 40), you really do not need to be specced for a given role to fill it adequately and player skill does play a part as to where the break point is. Beyond that though, because you start getting spec dedicated gear and abilities, and the content gets tougher, yes you really do need to pay more attention to what roles you choose to fill when you queue for a flashpoint.

 

you get more of a healer at 25 ish.

and it does matter, it's better to take healer companion then dps that 'will throw a heal or two'

it's not about being good healer, but dedicated.

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I know you all talking about Stats here, But The main consideration I believe The OP is making, is The Utter Rudeness and contempt to new members of a group, who may be still finding there feet In group Play.

 

patience is not one of the Virtues of some of these people Who make groups, and they are not doing newcomers any favors by Kicking people, without proir knowledge of the reason Why, Which is why I Never join a group, only the one with my guild members , or the closed small group of my friends to do A heroic mission.

TBH I dont know why you are all obsessed with Stats? , although My new Master is making sure I am marking the Right points on my tree, Over use of technically correct Stats , especially in groups, is bound to put people off more joining them.

 

Flashpoints I keep well clear off, Just like Dungeons in WoW, The more knowledgeable players kick, ridicule, and generally have no patience at all, to show a newcomer to Flash points how they work, what your role will be, What, or where the ultimate mission end is, and any hanging about or BRB (for RL for a minute it two) usually ends up with the unfortuante player being discarded. groups have to remember We all have a RL, and i have an unwell partner at the moment, meaning, my first priority, is to see to her needs, and I make my reason for leaving, which usually ends in words from the others which are quite colorful.

 

This for me, is the only real downside of this game, I came here to play the Light side, and kick Siths, not players, nor be bamboozled by over technically correct people, who seem to be more interested in being a techno Whore, which seems to rule there game play, instead of the ideals of the Star Wars universe.

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TaylorNova:

well, if some one makes group 'lf 1 for h4' and ask invited players are they healers and kicking out if 'no' (they should do 'lf 1 healer for h4'), then yes, it's wrong, but when group is bound by GF, no one is making this team. People que as signed roles,ergo promise to be those roles. Healer is not 'dps throwing a heal or two'. Tank in dps gear might be considered still tank as on below 47 tank stats matter less then little, but dirty fighting scoundrel is not a healer.

Generally, ops joined GF que as healer and got kicked for not being healer. plain and simple. least they could do is explain to him why he is kicked.

 

If I would leave during boss fight simply cause my fiancee asked me she needs something to drink (if she would be badly sick, I would not be playing) , I would not be suprized to hear alot of names coming my direction ;)

forums and guides are gold mine of knowledge. not people who group to do flashpoint.

 

yes, votekick for player who went for 'brb 2 mins' is rude and ridiculus, but so is expecting special treatment from people who you see first time in your life, and probably won't see them again this year. Would you have the patience to explain to some random commando who by accident joined as healer how to heal? what should be build and skills priority? If heroic 4 can be done with first time healer (excluding sorc/sages) dps geared, all life dps, and probably under geared (rule of thumb), it can also be done with my upgraded every 2 levels geared healer companion.

Edited by Atramar
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Altramar:

 

I appreciate your points, But I am not really talking about Queues That players have joined. If Players have decided to actually Join a queue For one of these missions, Then, yes, It makes sense to read up on "Flashpoints", Whats expected of you, and wether your class is required, before queuing for something That may not be practicable for newcomers, or lower levels.

 

Im really directing my comments to Unsolicited requests to join a group, "On the Fly " so to speak.

Sorry for not making it clearer, no offense intended:rolleyes:

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