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Progression Double-Monetized in 6.0?


FlatTax

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When you start out with a fallacy, all conclusions drawn from it will, by definition, also be fallacies.

 

I'm astounded people will defend microtransactions that feed progression and gearing. Really, I don't get it.

Edited by FlatTax
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I'm astounded people will defend microtransactions that feed progression and gearing. Really, I don't get it.

 

Can you buy the crates that are awarded for ranks from the CS? No? Not P2W. Are the items coming out exclusive to the CS? No? Not P2W. Can you completely ignore the GTN and still get boosts if you want them? Yes, and you're not relying on others to buy them, since they are available, currently, from an NPC, so again, not P2W. We're not defending P2W, we're pointing out the fallacy that this game is any where near P2W.

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Can you buy the crates that are awarded for ranks from the CS? No? Not P2W. Are the items coming out exclusive to the CS? No? Not P2W. Can you completely ignore the GTN and still get boosts if you want them? Yes, and you're not relying on others to buy them, since they are available, currently, from an NPC, so again, not P2W. We're not defending P2W, we're pointing out the fallacy that this game is any where near P2W.

You do have to pay real money to get the crates. Galactic Command, Purple Gear, and most of group content is real money. You win against those who do not pay for that. An example if you run in a WZ level 70 against preferred player in blue gear because he did not pay to use better gear, that loot is locked to him, and if by any chance he gets hands on such items, they are not equip-able (needs authorization). So it is not just pay to look good, it is pay to have better stats. You have huge advantage simply because you continued to pay for the game, the access and use of the better gear, the more you pay, the more you remain in the race for every time next gear tier appears. Now against another premium player, you both pay same, so it isn't pay to win in that case. But people keep forgetting that Swtor requires you to pay real money for both, stats and fashion, both require real money. Premium account is P2W against every other account class, but not against another Premium account.

 

The occurrence of P2W interaction to actually happen is probably, I am assuming, very low. The way business model in swtor works is to completely cut players off, to divide them from the first class, from the premium players. The boosters are simply there to make progression faster, they don't unlock better stats that will place you in advantage over players who do not use boosters, like premium status does.

Edited by BoySaber
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You do have to pay real money to get the crates. Galactic Command, Purple Gear, and most of group content is real money. You win against those who do not pay for that. An example if you run in a WZ level 70 against preferred player in blue gear because he did not pay to use better gear, that loot is locked to him, and if by any chance he gets hands on such items, they are not equip-able (needs authorization). So it is not just pay to look good, it is pay to have better stats. You have huge advantage simply because you continued to pay for the game, the access and use of the better gear, the more you pay, the more you remain in the race for every time next gear tier appears. Now against another premium player, you both pay same, so it isn't pay to win in that case. But people keep forgetting that Swtor requires you to pay real money for both, stats and fashion, both require real money. Premium account is P2W against every other account class, but not against another Premium account.

 

The occurrence of P2W interaction to actually happen is probably, I am assuming, very low. The way business model in swtor works is to completely cut players off, to divide them from the first class, from the premium players. The boosters are simply there to make progression faster, they don't unlock better stats that will place you in advantage over players who do not use boosters, like premium status does.

 

That's all good and all, but I also pointed that out several pages back. As I said then, if one can justify paying a sub, then one shouldn't be all that concerned about xp boosts, no matter where that xp is being applied, whether it be actual xp, or command ranks, or whatever else comes down the pipe. I've never been a fan of the F2P model here.

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Oh boy. There's been some silliness here since I last posted. Most of it's been addressed in my previous posts, but it may be time to re-summarize soon, for those arriving late and not following the plot.

 

I'll offer this now: shortly after the launch of 6.0, look for XP boosts to be on the 'featured' and/or 'popular' pages of the cash shop. The proof will be in the pudding when it comes to highly-monetized gearing/progression.

Edited by FlatTax
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Oh boy. There's been some silliness here since I last posted. Most of it's been addressed in my previous posts, but it may be time to re-summarize soon, for those arriving late and not following the plot.

 

I'll offer this now: shortly after the launch of 6.0, look for XP boosts to be on the 'featured' and/or 'popular' pages of the cash shop. The proof will be in the pudding when it comes to highly-monetized gearing/progression.

 

So what is it that you're going to get that I won't? That's P2W in a nutshell, not "I'll get it faster". You have yet to address this, despite claims to the contrary. It seems like you're more concerned about what Player Y has, or might get, and how soon, than anything else.

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So what is it that you're going to get that I won't? That's P2W in a nutshell, not "I'll get it faster". You have yet to address this, despite claims to the contrary. It seems like you're more concerned about what Player Y has, or might get, and how soon, than anything else.

 

Pay-not-to-wait is a money-laundered pay-to-win transaction.

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Pay-not-to-wait is a money-laundered pay-to-win transaction.

 

So it is more you're being concerned about what Player Y may get, as opposed to actual P2W. Thanks for the clarification. Your impatience, or jealousy of someone else getting something a few hours sooner than you does not qualify as P2W, it has another name, that I can't use here, but it ends in envy.

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Isn't CXP being scrapped in 6.0? Changed to Renown XP instead?

 

That was my understanding as well. I guess it may be a case of CXP until you get to level 75. I got the impression same as you though that CXP was gone the day 6.0 came.

 

Points earned for conquest should just switch from one to the other once 6.0 comes out. Lower levels should not change at all.

Edited by KoriVash
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So it is more you're being concerned about what Player Y may get, as opposed to actual P2W. Thanks for the clarification. Your impatience, or jealousy of someone else getting something a few hours sooner than you does not qualify as P2W, it has another name, that I can't use here, but it ends in envy.

 

No, other players aren't my concern.

 

Let's cover some basics: The optimal game experience is the one sold to you. Developers will never intentionally sell anything that reduces engagement, and their goal is to recurringly monetize us.

 

If a game monetizes its gearing and progression with microtransactions, the non-MTX experience is definitionally sabotaged, to incentivize those transactions. Period.

 

My problem is paying $155.88 a year, year after year, and having my experience degraded by MTX-fed gearing and progression. It's pay-to-win, and 6.0 is doubling-down with its need for two simultaneous consumables to un-nerf the game.

 

And no, the degree to which MTX-fed progression and gearing can be circumvented isn't meaningful, because it's a moral problem, regardless of degree. If it's 'not so bad' now, we're clearly being groomed for more abuse when the lights go out. None of us deserve to get FIFA'd in the dark.

 

I won't even get started on selling gambling products.

 

Business ethics matter. We all deserve better.

(woah, the divine, golden glow of truth)

Edited by FlatTax
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No, other players aren't my concern.

 

Let's cover some basics: The optimal game experience is the one sold to you. Developers will never intentionally sell anything that reduces engagement, and their goal is to recurringly monetize of us.

 

If a game monetizes its gearing and progression with microtransactions, the non-MTX experience is definitionally sabotaged, to incentivize those transactions. Period.

 

My problem is paying $155.88 a year, year after year, and having my experience degraded by MTX-fed gearing and progression. It's pay-to-win, and 6.0 is doubling-down with its need for two simultaneous consumables to un-nerf the game.

 

And no, the degree to which MTX-fed progression and gearing can be circumvented isn't meaningful, because it's a moral problem, regardless of degree. If it's 'not so bad' now, we're clearly being groomed for more abuse when the lights go out. None of us deserve to get FIFA'd in the dark.

 

I won't even get started on selling gambling products.

 

Business ethics matter. We all deserve better.

(woah, the divine, golden glow of truth)

 

Although I agree in your sentiment in regards to Loot Boxes (honestly I think they should just burn in hell), the definition of P2W is if you can purchase gear, with higher stats that benefit your character. In regards to EXP boosting items, you are given them on a regular basis in game. The sets of gear, weapons etc are 0 stat (well besides the crystals) so therefor are just eye candy and not P2W.

 

But what FIFA is doing, is completely, COMPLETELY different then what is offered in the CM as of now. When 6.0 comes out, if this changes, then I will be the first to say "good call" to you. But if not, I still see no factual evidence besides a personal opinion to show that this game is P2W.

 

It seems to me, that you just have a real mad on about any online store, period.

Edited by lightSaberAddiCt
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Isn't CXP being scrapped in 6.0? Changed to Renown XP instead?

 

That was my understanding as well. I guess it may be a case of CXP until you get to level 75. I got the impression same as you though that CXP was gone the day 6.0 came.

 

Points earned for conquest should just switch from one to the other once 6.0 comes out. Lower levels should not change at all.

 

you are both correct:

 

Hey!

 

I am seeing this question still pop up quite a bit so let me clarify. Renown is a max level supplementary gearing system, you will not start earning RXP until you are level 75. A lot of the things we talk about relating to gear being relevant to your character, such as targeting your item rating, are mostly referencing end game gearing only.

 

The reason for this is that throughout the rest of the game, the vast majority of Mission rewards, especially story, already drop gear intended for your character. Some content also already drops "relevant" gear such as from daily mission crates. What we are talking about is improving the gearing experience at endgame, there are not many changes planned for the rest of the experience.

 

That being said, if there are particular places that you feel lower level gearing is particularly rough, let us know!

 

-eric

Edited by Phazonfreak
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But what FIFA is doing, is completely, COMPLETELY different then what is offered in the CM as of now. When 6.0 comes out, if this changes, then I will be the first to say "good call" to you. But if not, I still see no factual evidence besides a personal opinion to show that this game is P2W.

 

It's a difference of degree, not principle. SWTOR has both of FIFA's worst ethics problems:

 

1. The sale of advantage-producing consumables

2. The sale of gambling products

 

The bright line has long since been crossed, and we'd be morally small people to not say something about it.

Edited by FlatTax
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Hey folks,

 

So, I have good news on that front. The drop rates of masterwork gear from Command Crates is going to be increasing in 5.10.3 next week. That gear will still be rare overall, but it will start dropping more often.

 

Thanks all.

 

-eric

 

Just saw this from late May, and it's delicious. This week's patch, anecdotally, seems to have dramatically improved drops, too.

 

I don't see how anyone can look at a double-monetized, stat-providing loot drop being sweetened, and not see a problem.

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No, other players aren't my concern.

 

Then what are we discussing here? If we're looking at a single player experience, there is no winning. P2W implies that some players will have something that others won't have if they're not paying, in a very general sense. However, other players are required to "win".

 

Let's cover some basics: The optimal game experience is the one sold to you. Developers will never intentionally sell anything that reduces engagement, and their goal is to recurringly monetize us.

 

If a game monetizes its gearing and progression with microtransactions, the non-MTX experience is definitionally sabotaged, to incentivize those transactions. Period.

 

My problem is paying $155.88 a year, year after year, and having my experience degraded by MTX-fed gearing and progression. It's pay-to-win, and 6.0 is doubling-down with its need for two simultaneous consumables to un-nerf the game.

 

And no, the degree to which MTX-fed progression and gearing can be circumvented isn't meaningful, because it's a moral problem, regardless of degree. If it's 'not so bad' now, we're clearly being groomed for more abuse when the lights go out. None of us deserve to get FIFA'd in the dark.

 

I won't even get started on selling gambling products.

 

Business ethics matter. We all deserve better.

(woah, the divine, golden glow of truth)

 

We've been over this already. These items that you're so concerned about can be purchased in game, with in game currency, and, currently, are given away in crates that are earned by simply playing the game at max level. The closest thing to P2W in this game is something you already do, paying a sub to play. It doesn't matter if you achieve something in 5 days using dropped/purchased with in game currency boosts, or buy boosts from the CM, a purchase on the CM is not required to achieve the ultimate goal.

 

In Rappelz, you can enchant gear. After a specific level, which varies by tiers of gear based on Character level, the gear can break if the enchant fails. The only means to prevent this is only available through the CS, and the only way to repair said gear if it breaks, is the CS. That is P2W. Getting a rank in RXP is not, especially given that the new system is going to go off your equipped gear, instead of RXP ranks. I will not be changing the definition of terms to suit your narrative.

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Out of all the things you could legitimately critizise EA/BioWare for, and there are many things in the past and especially during 4.0/5.0, this alleged double-monetization-progression-P2W-undermining-morals-scheme argument is absolutely ridiculous.

 

As a subscriber I pay 155.88 Euros a year and I have personal and legacy cargo holds on all my characters that are jam-packed with xp and cxp boosts. I can't keep up with actually using them all and have a serious problem with all them command tokens piling up in the command stashes of my characters, because I don't do crafting and don't need them to buy more boosts.

I got the boosts purely by playing the game and never bought any of them on the Cartel Market. It is actually so "bad" how much of them are thrown into your face every step of the way, that it made having too little space in cargo holds a far more pressing issue than any scheme you stipulate regarding progression monetization.

 

Unless any of the new statted gear and tactical items we get in 6.0 will become a direct Cartel Market purchase or part of any cartel crate drops your argument does not hold any water at all.

Edited by Phazonfreak
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@FlatTax

 

Pretty impressed by your trolling ability. The ONLY post you have ever created and you have 10 pages. Your trolling is good, very good. I would even say it boarders on exceptional.

 

Edit: removed "OR replied to" from the sentence. Last time I looked he had not replied to anything except his own troll thread.

Edited by MacCleoud
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Then what are we discussing here? If we're looking at a single player experience, there is no winning. P2W implies that some players will have something that others won't have if they're not paying, in a very general sense. However, other players are required to "win".

 

Single player games can absolutely be pay-to-win. All pay-to-win requires is advantage-producing microtransactions.

 

And indeed, we've been over the rest before.

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@FlatTax

 

Pretty impressed by your trolling ability. The ONLY post you have ever created and you have 10 pages. Your trolling is good, very good. I would even say it boarders on exceptional.

 

Edit: removed "OR replied to" from the sentence. Last time I looked he had not replied to anything except his own troll thread.

 

I'm pretty sure I'm the one being trolled. Who's *really,* as a matter of principle, ok with gambling products and advantage-producing microtransactions?

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I'm pretty sure I'm the one being trolled. Who's *really,* as a matter of principle, ok with gambling products and advantage-producing microtransactions?

 

I am with you in regards to gambling products IE: loot boxes, but I think most have countered your argument about "advantage producing" since there is absolutely no advantage to gear, and you are given so many max exp boosts in game that it is not even necessary to buy them on the CM.

 

I have so many in my legacy box, just from playing that I will easily be able to get all my toons to 75 when the time comes. It just seems to me that you expect everything included with your sub price, and there should be absolutely no cartel market (which is BS because that CM allows people to make easy credits if they use their 500cc right).

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Alrighty, most of you guys seem to be saying it's not a problem, because the microtransactions are totally circumventable.

 

It still matters.

 

Please go back and look at what I said about bright lines, and grooming. Those boosts are in the cash shop for a reason.

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Alrighty, most of you guys seem to be saying it's not a problem, because the microtransactions are totally circumventable.

 

It still matters.

 

Please go back and look at what I said about bright lines, and grooming. Those boosts are in the cash shop for a reason.

 

They are indeed, for the same reason that speeders, cosmetic items, and SH decorations are: Someone will buy them. Do you picket businesses when they have sales too? I laid out what P2W means in a previous post, and nothing you're describing is P2W. Everything is available in game, either as quest rewards, from opening crates that come from just playing the game, or from an NPC. Meaning that you have no reason to use the CS, let alone being forced to use the CS if you want to get them. Of course, your tirade is buried in "I pay a sub, and everything that comes out ever for the game should be free".

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OPs arguments are really nothing more than idiosyncratic gripes with free market philosophy. There is nothing normative in the OPs concerns (e.g. there is no normative basis for concluding what a sub should include, how much it should cost, etc.). Seeing as the complaints are entirely personal and unique, it's hard to place his arguments into any broader debate context.

 

Take an automobile. One buys a new car in 2019, certain this are expected: it starts, it drives, it's powered by an energy source that's obtainable, it has airbags, it meets government standards, etc.. The the sound system, sports package, sunroof, navigation, etc. are all optional. And even the price itself depends on the class, market, supply/demand, etc. If dealers charged for airbags (they do, but of course that's baked in already which is another problem with OP's arguments) or for a steering wheel, or the ignition, then there would be an issue.

 

The OPs argument goes along the lines of when I buy a car, I expect all luxury, non-essential items to be included at no additional charge. OP rejects the idea that a dealer might "entice" a customer to upgrade the sound system by including a functional, but uninspiring, system in the base model, and charging a premium for the higher quality version. This is a fine position to have, but it's not one that merits any debate. It's too idiosyncratic, and it fails to account for a number of additional factors (e.g. how some customers may be content with the base model and be unwilling to pay even a dime more for an upgrade, costs of goods sold, etc.)....

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I just don't see why they have to scrap CXP. I get that they're trying to slim down a few things and remove currencies to cut down on their current bloat of currencies. (Alliance Recon Data as an example.) Still, I can't see myself being arsed to care about Renown. With CXP, there is some sense of progression along with a small prize per level. This works for people like me who do not have the time to play/grind all day. Yes, my highest character is in the mid-100s but I wasn't really trying to get to 300 as fast as I can.

 

Renown......Having something that will regularly reset back to 0 kills any motivation that I have to care. This is good for me as it means that I will only ever touch the Rakghoul event 4 more times and the Gree once more. Helping me cut down on my faffing about isn't a bad thing for me. However, I don't see how it helps those events when I won't even have the smallest motivator to swing by and see if anybody needs help with heroics. (Yes, I'm full up on rep.)

 

I feel like they should just leave CXP there alongside the Renown system but it is what it is. I can't really get too worked up over the demise of the CXP system anymore than I got worked up over the demise of the crystal currency. All it means is that I'm trying to burn my boosts and command tokens before end of August as well as my UCs.

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