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So are light side sith still sith?


lokdron

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I have been reading swtor forums and people think that LS sith are still sith I mean before this game came out from what I have seen everyone considered the sith a dark side religion it was founded on the dark side yet when this game gave the option to play as an LS sith I see people start saying that LS sith are still sith.

 

I am personally going :confused: cause after playing an LS sith warrior since people keep telling me LS sith are still sith the story has been pretty much hammering in my face that you are no longer sith and you don't agree with the sith teachings and if other sith find out your light side they will destroy you. As a sith lore and dark side lore lover were are people getting this idea that LS sith are still sith? Its the same thing as being a dark jedi would you consider a dark jedi a jedi? I sure wouldn't.

 

I mean you don't see LS sith in the sith academy preaching that they should let go or rage and hatred and embrace love, compassion and mercy and all the other positive stuff if you have freedom to be LS if you want as some people say on these forums. Or a LS sith telling everyone that they are light side and they should be too same goes for dark jedi in the opposite fashion.

 

I am wondering were people are getting this idea and what other people think about this. Cause what I have seen from star wars lore and reading books the sith consider the light side tainted/heretical. This is even talked about in the sith warrior story since.

 

 

Since jaesa gets given a job from the dark council to kill light side sith in the sith order since they are heretics.

 

Edited by lokdron
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Remember one little thing someone reminds me of

 

The term "Sith" originally referred to a species of alien native to the planets Korriban and Ziost. If you refer to that definition then a Sith can mean light or dark side even though for the most part Sith were darkside.

Edited by ScarletBlaze
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Well yeah the sith race was a race that has an affinity with the dark side and then the dark jedi went "woah a whole race based around the dark side! lets take control join them since they pretty much have the same views as us!". Hence the sith order was made and founded on the dark side.
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this is just an opinion, i don't really have much to back it up. but i will try. a jedi that is darkside becomes sith, the 2 main examples that every1 would know is revan and anakin. and a sith that becomes lightside would be a jedi, as far as i know there is either, no, or only one case of this. perhaps some1 that knows this story can shed some light. as i have not read this series yet. did luke turn mara?

 

anyway taking this game out of the picture, in story's, as far as i know there is no lightside sith. just some are more evil than others

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this is just an opinion, i don't really have much to back it up. but i will try. a jedi that is darkside becomes sith, the 2 main examples that every1 would know is revan and anakin. and a sith that becomes lightside would be a jedi, as far as i know there is either, no, or only one case of this. perhaps some1 that knows this story can shed some light. as i have not read this series yet. did luke turn mara?

 

anyway taking this game out of the picture, in story's, as far as i know there is no lightside sith. just some are more evil than others

 

Not necessarily. Not all dark/fallen Jedi become Sith. There are many instances of this:

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Jedi

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It's not a black and white issue. When I rolled my Sith warrior I did not take the chance to wipe a lot of people, instead taking the 'light' option of sending them to the Dark Council for interrogation, when it may have been kinder, and more lightside, so kill them there and then. Others however, were summarily executed because I felt it would be more 'Sith' to do so.

 

Being a Sith is not about crushing people just because you can. The Sith code teaches that unless your victory proves you to be more powerful than the vanquished, then it is not a true victory. To jettison people from an airlock without them ever being aware of your presence would be a good example of this. It would be a darkside action, but not worthy of the Sith, and contrary to the Sith code.

 

Crushing insects because you can is...beneath a true Sith.

 

It is also possible to be a darkside force user but not be a Sith. You see this in game a lot, poor unfortunates being jettisoned from airlocks for example. Lots of darkside toons thinking it makes them Sith. "judder"

 

I roll my Sith and follow the Sith code, and they end up more light than dark, but I frequently take many darkside options because it is Sith to do so.

 

As Yuthara Ban described the Sith code- "Simple words, yet easily misunderstood". I think the Sith code is best described here-

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Code_of_the_Sith

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One thing that a lot of people confuse about the Sith Code is that it never expressly says that Hate, Cruelty and Anger are required to be a Sith. Passion encompasses a lot of emotions, including feelings of love and affection, the thing is, the people that matter in the Sith hierarchy (Lords, Darths, Emperors) all use the aforementioned hate, anger and cruelty.

 

Now, the Sith Code is fairly ambiguous (technically, the Peace thing is the only part that could be considered evil, but a lack of peace does not necessarily mean galaxy spanning war), but the Sith philosophy is based around the strong ruling over the weak, and only the powerful surviving. Its very Animallistic in that only the strong survive, and the weak will only be good enough for slavery or servitude.

 

So, to answer your question, you do not have to be Dark sided to follow the Code of the Sith, but you do to live by the philosophy of the strong dominating the weak.

Edited by Aximand
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The sith teachings are all about embracing ALL of your emotions, yess that usually means you embrace Hatred and anger, but it can also mean love, compassion. The Jedi teach you to supress your emotions which is why ani turned darkside because he embraced love, which turned to hatred when his wife was dying. So yes there can be light side sith.
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ok lets look at this from another angle. can any1 name a lightside sith, that remained part of the empire and didn't turn into a jedi,

 

i'm thinking opening an puppy orphanage would be a good example (ok maybe that is extreme) but seriously is there examples of light side sith?

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ok lets look at this from another angle. can any1 name a lightside sith, that remained part of the empire and didn't turn into a jedi,

 

i'm thinking opening an puppy orphanage would be a good example (ok maybe that is extreme) but seriously is there examples of light side sith?

 

Revan. It was always his plan to do the 'right' thing to save the Republic. Becoming Sith was merely necessity.

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Revan. It was always his plan to do the 'right' thing to save the Republic. Becoming Sith was merely necessity.

 

Wrong. Revan fell to the Dark Side during the Mandalorian Wars, with him finally becoming irredeemable (without the Council wiping his mind) during the events of Malachor V. He was already dark sided when Vitiate mind controlled him and after he broke free from Vitiate's hold during the Jedi Civil War, he planned on making the Republic into his own Sith Empire so he could return and conquer Vitiate's Sith Empire. At no point was he ever a Light sided Sith.

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So, to answer your question, you do not have to be Dark sided to follow the Code of the Sith, but you do to live by the philosophy of the strong dominating the weak.

 

Which is not natural of the force, and therefore is a philosophy of the dark side.

 

Let's get real here: the Sith Emperor is almost a pure manifestation of the dark side of the force. Same guy who seeks to destroy the whole galaxy. Just so he can be the most powerful. He is beyond a Sith Lord, he is the Emperor.

 

He is the model of the Sith.

 

While it's also perfectly legit to play as a light side Sith character, because of it's story, and how it is written. It is lore. They are more of a gross. Just like how there are dark force users that are from the Jedi Order.

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This is a post from another topic adding on to why LS sith are not sith.

 

Warning my post will contain some spoilers from SWTOR

 

I apologize for the grammar and spelling errors.

 

"How am I to know the good side from the bad?"

"You will know, when you are calm. At peace, passive."

―Luke Skywalker and Yoda

 

Thats from the movies and the first line of the sith code says "Peace is a lie". To use the light side you must be at peace and in control the sith teachings as whole is pretty much against that. Darth revan in the darth bane novel even says to bane that you must allow yourself to be consumed by the dark side and doing that makes you lose control of yourself sometimes.

 

I played an LS sith for myself since people keep telling me that they are still sith in my opinion no they are not same goes for dark jedi.

 

The sith was founded on the dark side of the force the sith are pretty much anti light side as well if they find out a sith is light side the sith consider them tainted since their religion was founded on the dark side. The LS sith would be hunted down and destroyed.

 

Even in this game the sith warrior if light side meets the dark side version of themself the LS sith warrior can say they followed the teachings of the sith and their master to the letter. The dark side incarnation gets pissed off and says to you "Stop lying to yourself you are not sith".

 

Last thing I ask you what do you think will happen if you walk into the academy and told everyone they should be light side what do you think would happen?

 

My thoughts will be in brackets.

Now stuff from the sith wiki page!

 

"If you seek to aid everyone that suffers in the galaxy, you will only weaken yourself … and weaken them. It is the internal struggles, when fought and won on their own, that yield the strongest rewards… If you care for others, then dispense with pity and sacrifice and recognize the value in letting them fight their own battles."

―Darth Traya[s

 

The Sith believed that conflict was the only true test of one's ability, and so emphasized its importance. It was their belief that conflict challenged both individuals and civilizations, and so forced them to grow and evolve. They believed that the avoidance of conflict–like the pacifist teachings of the Jedi–resulted in stagnation and decline.

 

Another purpose served by conflict was the elevation of the strong and the death of the weak. By encouraging strife, the strong were able to exercise their power while the weak were weeded from the ranks of the Sith. A core tenet to Sith philosophy was self-reliance and the idea that an individual only deserved what they were strong enough to take. Likewise, morality was treated as an obstacle to be overcome, as it got in the way of a Sith's ability to recognize and seize opportunities for advancement and self-empowerment. (in the sith code morality is also a chain so is honor since that can be exploited this is also explained the darth bane novels)

 

 

The cornerstone of a Sith's power was emotion. While the Jedi taught that fear, anger, and pain were negative emotions to be overcome, the Sith believed that these strong emotions were natural, and aided individuals in their survival. (When playing an LS sith they pretty much shy-ed away from fear,anger and pain the sith teachings state that these are the emotions that lead to power in the dark side and as I said before to sith the light side is heretical. The dark council in swtor gives the sith warrior apprentice a job as the sith heretic hunter. Positive emotions are things aligned with the light side and to the sith the light side is well tainted to them.)

 

However, not all emotions were embraced by the Sith. They, like the Jedi, considered 'love' a dangerous emotion, but for different reasons. The Jedi discouraged love because it led to attachment, but the Sith taught that love led to mercy, which was anathema to them. (Yes sith teach that you don't show mercy to opponents/rivals and I mean never if you want to go really old school)

 

"But in their hearts they never forgot the Jedi. The hatred for the Jedi Order burns in their veins like fire, and it echoes in their teachings."

―Darth Traya[src]

 

 

Wookiepedia stuff stops here.

 

The sith hate everything to do with the jedi and they hate everything the jedi represent the sith warrior can even refer to the jedi as vermin. The sith is the other side of the coin to the jedi thats how lucas created them the sith in themself is about imbalance.

 

Sith order teaches negative emotions >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> positive(since positive emotions are things of the light side). Since as I said before the sith order is founded on the dark side and gaining freedom through the dark side. Positive emotions is part of the light side and anyone in the sith order practicing the light side is deemded a heretic and needs to be destroyed. Darth malgus in his novel calls the light side heretical. The dark side incarnation the sith warrior meets says the sith can smell the rot off you aka light side.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Light_side_of_the_Force

 

The light side of the Force was aligned with happiness, joy, love, and benevolence, which some believed nurtured the light side and provided insight into its ethical uses. It was generally concerned with the ideas of good, generosity, healing, and wisdom, as opposed to evil, harm, and hasty judgment. In order to achieve harmony with the light side of the Force, its practitioners would often meditate to clear themselves of emotion; particularly negative emotions such as aggression, anger, and hatred

 

As I said before to the sith doing anything according to the light side is heretical to sith. There is a difference between being dark 1-5 and light 1-5 if you are light rank 1-5 then in the sith eyes you are now a heretic. Not to say playing an LS aligned sith is not interesting it is since you order wants to destroy you if they find out your true alignment. Since you are a heretic.

 

Lets not forget positive emotions don't work with the dark side only light and as I said before positive emotions are things of the light side. Plus if you embrace the idea of the strong dominating the weak those are things of the dark side since you are subjugating people weaker than you which in turn will cause suffering which will feed the dark side.

Edited by lokdron
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I think you guys are getting a little too philosophical.

The Sith and Jedi orders are nothing more than organizations made up of certain individuals.

As long as other members of the organization recognize you to be one of them, you are a Sith/Jedi. Alignment has nothing to do with it.

Of course, if the other Sith actually KNEW you are secretly following the light side, then they'd probably kill/banish you, but as long as you manage to prevent that, you are a Sith.

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  • 2 months later...
personaly i think the light side/ dark side is just bioware being star warsy with the allignment system. Think of them more as different actions in a given situation (eg letting the slaves suffer for weeks versus killing them out right) both still pretty evil and none are particularly light. Making dark side choices as a jedi doesnt mean following the dark side it's just you feel you should take more aggressive action or be stronger to protect the republic. same as light sith. Malgus is sith but he believes that tolerence breeds strength. sparing some one who could help you get stronger vs killing them to be "sith". You're still a sith you just do things differently. Ultimately you strive for power regardless of your choices.
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I think you guys are getting a little too philosophical.

The Sith and Jedi orders are nothing more than organizations made up of certain individuals.

As long as other members of the organization recognize you to be one of them, you are a Sith/Jedi. Alignment has nothing to do with it.

Of course, if the other Sith actually KNEW you are secretly following the light side, then they'd probably kill/banish you, but as long as you manage to prevent that, you are a Sith.

 

This. It goes both ways. A dark side Jedi is still a Jedi because he/she has not joined the organization formally known as "Sith." If said dark jedi is banished however, then he/she is simply exiled from the order, they will not be considered Sith unless they join their ranks.

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I think you guys are getting a little too philosophical.

The Sith and Jedi orders are nothing more than organizations made up of certain individuals.

As long as other members of the organization recognize you to be one of them, you are a Sith/Jedi. Alignment has nothing to do with it.

Of course, if the other Sith actually KNEW you are secretly following the light side, then they'd probably kill/banish you, but as long as you manage to prevent that, you are a Sith.

 

^This. If one specific Dark Side Jedi in the past would have won on Tython, the Jedi would be a Dark Side organization and still be called Jedi.

 

There are light side Sith, but they are (normally) considered as heretics by the other Sith. In religions, heretics are normally still considered as part of the religion, but as people who got it wrong and must be stopped. And "stopped" means "killed" in the Sith order.

 

There are at least two points where you see that in the game:

 

1. On Korriban: An Inquisitor asks you to kill some heretic acolytes.

2. On Dromund Kaas: You find the teachings of a light side Sith (his holocron) in the Dark Temple.

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this is really quite simple when you think about it. think of both the edi order and the sith as what they really are, a religious cult/organization. think of any of todays religions, if you stop following the teaching of your religion and start following the teaching of another, then you would stop calling yourself a follower of the first religion and start calling yourself a follower of your new religion. your old religion would still consider you a part of their religion, and your new religion would not consider you a part of theirs if you didn't claim to be a part of it.

 

its really that simple, if you stop following the darkside, and stopped following the teaching of the sith, then no, you are no long a part of the sith. somebody changing the religion its creed, its code and its message is a completely different subject, but as it stands if you stop following the way the teaching tell you, then you have turned your back on what makes you sith

 

but to OP's point about playing a lightside sith in game, that really doesn't matter, your characters journey as you play it will not be canon. so your lightside sith will never really be anyway

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Most of my light side Sith choices are let them be imprisoned and tortured opposed to killing them outright. That's not exactly unicorns and fluffy bunnies. I don't see anything un-Sith-like about not killing every.single.person you come across. Sometimes your stabbing arm just gets tired. And the people you let crawl away still breathing may at some point prove useful (which happens in the stories sometimes, you spare someone and they help in a later fight). Killing everyone for killing sake may make you super evil but it won't make you a good sith, walking around half mad with no allies makes it hard to rise in the ranks.
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Is your light side Sith a Sith? Let's see.

 

1) Does he/she follow the Sith code?

 

2) Do others acknowledge him/her as a Sith?

 

If the answer to both is "yes," then congratulations, he/she is a Sith.

 

As others have said, you guys are getting far too lost in the weeds of this particular discussion. The game takes place well before the Rule of Two for the Sith and the Ruusan Reformation for the Jedi, meaning that both cults in their "modern" forms as we know them from the movies are quite different from how they functioned in this time period. TOR-era Jedi were much more militaristic or at least "fightier", had a less restrictive code - the bit where Orgus talks about Jedi being forbidden to marry is an anachronism on Bioware's part, that wouldn't come in for centuries - and the Sith are a much more vast and diverse organization.

 

I think it's telling that at one point in KotOR II, Carth - I think it's Carth, might have been Atton - talks about how it was called the Jedi Civil War because, for your average non-Force user, the Jedi and the Sith are basically two sides of the same coin. Catholics and Protestants, if you will.

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The sith teachings are all about embracing ALL of your emotions, yess that usually means you embrace Hatred and anger, but it can also mean love, compassion. The Jedi teach you to supress your emotions which is why ani turned darkside because he embraced love, which turned to hatred when his wife was dying. So yes there can be light side sith.

 

In a way, besides embracing love, he embraced his hatred when he went all Rambo on the Tusken Raiders. Doesn't help that after his mom died he became obsessed with the idea of saving people from death. Enter pregnant padme.

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