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Imperial Intelligence (IA ending spoliers)


Path-x

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Anyone else think the Sith disbanding the Imperial Intelligence is a dumb and lame story point? I mean that is like cutting your right hand off. Or like Stalin disbanding NKVD. It just ridiculous and makes no sense. Replacing its head people sounds reasonable but destroying the whole infrastructure which took years to build and which was vital tool of the Sith Empire is beyond stupid. Edited by Path-x
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yeah but it wasnt the sith, it was the star cabal acting through the sith

 

Star Cabal... Well that's a whole new level of ridiculousness. There is no way any organization like that could manipulate Sith and Jedi to this extent and so directly. So yea these are the two thing I hate about IA storyline.

Edited by Path-x
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The point you seem to be missing is that II, aside from being pretty much the only organization in centuries to pose a threat to the Cabal, also becomes an existential threat to the status quo within the Empire. Which means it has to go.

 

Dislike that all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that there are very good reasons for the Minister, Keeper, and all the rank and file being given their walking papers.

Edited by Narien
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Sith doing something entirely to the detriment of the Empire as a whole for no other reason than to expand their personal power isn't exactly a rarity. I'm only surprised it took backdoor manipulation by a third party for it to happen. Edited by Bleeters
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Sith doing something entirely to the detriment of the Empire as a whole for no other reason than to expand their personal power isn't exactly a rarity. I'm only surprised it took backdoor manipulation by a third party for it to happen.

 

Ayup.

 

Some random guy with a Star Cabal nametag barely hidden in his jacket didn't walk up to the Dark Council and say "Hey, derp, let's get rid of Imperial Intelligence!" Throughout the class line both the Sith and the military (usually called out with the examples Darth Baras and General Rakton) are perpetually scrabbling to get more of Intelligence's resources - the dissolution of the department was not the first time their names came up. It's just background chatter as you pass in and out of cutscenes at HQ, but it's there. Imperial Intelligence was a ripe target exactly because it was a large, expensive, very useful tool that had been built up with considerable time and effort. Imperial leadership wanted it, all right, but individual players didn't necessarily want it in the public domain. It wouldn't take much to talk several major players into finally making a grab for individual control of it or as much of it as they could get.

 

Dissolving Imperial Intelligence was a stupid move for the Empire, but it was a logical (as much as any Sith action is logical) move for Darth Baras and the rest of the individual Sith egomaniacs, and if they needed convincing, well, the Star Cabal's agents could give a little push. It would get the massive, too-aggressive headache that is Imperial Intelligence off the Cabal's case.

Edited by bright_ephemera
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Well I think the Star Cabal power is ridiculously over-exaggerated and goes far beyond my tolerance threshold. Okay they could somehow manipulate a few mid-ranked egocentric Sith, but the whole Dark Council on something like this? Be serious. Actually something like disbanding of Imperial Intelligence would never go pass Emperor himself, so in the end this concept fails one way or another. Not to mention them manipulating the Jedi order. That is even more ridiculous. There is just no way I will accept something like this.

 

On the other hand it is basically just a ridiculous rehash of GenoHaradan from KOTOR.

Edited by Path-x
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Actually something like disbanding of Imperial Intelligence would never go pass Emperor himself, so in the end this concept fails one way or another.

 

.....The Emperor doesn't deal with the day to day running of the Empire and hasn't even been on DK for like a decade prior to the start of the game. Why would he give a flying f about the disbanding of Imperial Intellegence when he is in his end game?

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Well I think the Star Cabal power is ridiculously over-exaggerated and goes far beyond my tolerance threshold. Okay they could somehow manipulate a few mid-ranked egocentric Sith, but the whole Dark Council on something like this? Be serious. Actually something like disbanding of Imperial Intelligence would never go pass Emperor himself, so in the end this concept fails one way or another. Not to mention them manipulating the Jedi order. That is even more ridiculous. There is just no way I will accept something like this.

 

On the other hand it is basically just a ridiculous rehash of GenoHaradan from KOTOR.

 

So is this the part where you break out the "the Star Cabal is breaking my immersion" line, or does that come later?

 

Manipulation comes in more forms than over, blatant, in your face bullying and arm twisting.

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Given how good imperial intelligence is at what they do and their penchant for thinking both outside the box and outside the chain of command--combined with the information they have at their disposal about their masters as well as the enemies of the empire, I don't find it at all difficult to believe that it wouldn't be too hard to manipulate powerful sith into believing that imperial intelligence was far to close to being a rogue organization for the safety of the power structure and needed to be dismantled into lesser components which were more firmly under their control.
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.....The Emperor doesn't deal with the day to day running of the Empire and hasn't even been on DK for like a decade prior to the start of the game. Why would he give a flying f about the disbanding of Imperial Intellegence when he is in his end game?

 

Don't be ridiculous... Disbanding of Imperial Intelligence does not fall under "day-to-day running". The Imperial Intelligence is what basically keeps the Empire together and is parallel in importance to Imperial Military (which is pretty much the most important element of Empire). If Emperor or DC wouldn't care about that then they wouldn't care about Empire at all. It is true that Emperor had bigger goals than the Empire (JK storyline) but the Empire was the only mean to achieve that goal. So if the Empire would collapse from within as a consequence of disbandment of Imperial Intelligence then he can kiss his goal good bye.

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Don't be ridiculous... Disbanding of Imperial Intelligence does not fall under "day-to-day running". The Imperial Intelligence is what basically keeps the Empire together and is parallel in importance to Imperial Military (which is pretty much the most important element of Empire). If Emperor or DC wouldn't care about that then they wouldn't care about Empire at all. It is true that Emperor had bigger goals than the Empire (JK storyline) but the Empire was the only mean to achieve that goal. So if the Empire would collapse from within as a consequence of disbandment of Imperial Intelligence then he can kiss his goal good bye.

 

The knight story takes place before the agent and warrior stories, therefore what you're saying is immaterial in ways that i won't go into because this thread isn't marked of knight spoilers, but are pretty obvious to those who've played the knight and warrior stories.

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Don't be ridiculous... Disbanding of Imperial Intelligence does not fall under "day-to-day running". The Imperial Intelligence is what basically keeps the Empire together and is parallel in importance to Imperial Military (which is pretty much the most important element of Empire). If Emperor or DC wouldn't care about that then they wouldn't care about Empire at all. It is true that Emperor had bigger goals than the Empire (JK storyline) but the Empire was the only mean to achieve that goal. So if the Empire would collapse from within as a consequence of disbandment of Imperial Intelligence then he can kiss his goal good bye.

 

 

He had been trapped for some indefinite period of time on Voss prior to the disbanding of Imperial Intellegence, and Imperial Intellegence is disbanded before the SW kills Darth Baras. Therefore Darth Baras is still pretending to be the Voice of the Emperor while the Emperor is recovering. Meaning if anyone Darth Baras would be assuming the role of the Emperor, but he hadn't been officially recognized. The Sith being slaughtered in the war serves the Emperor's purposes just as well as the Empire slaughtering the Republic, so I don't think he would really care even if he was in on the decision. He just needed a bunch of people to die.

 

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You are all clinging to some speculative details while missing the main thing. The whole Star Cabal power is ridiculous and dumb to say the least.

 

There is no way the whole dark council could be manipulated into doing something as stupid as disbanding Imperial Intelligence. That equals to letting someone convince you to cut off your right hand in normal circumstances. No one is dumb enough to do it.

 

The worst thing about it is that in the game they haven't even explained how Star Cabal actually pulled it off. I can't blame them because there is no sane or reasonable scenario to explain it. But they shouldn't have made such a stupid story point in the first place.

 

On top of that, there is no way they could manipulate the Jedi Order.

 

In conclusion, until BW comes up with some sane and convincing explanations on how Star Cabal manipulated the Sith and the Jedi Order to that extent (which I highly doubt they exists) the Star Cabal will be under "lame" and "unacceptable" category.

Edited by Path-x
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You are all clinging to some speculative details while missing the main thing. The whole Star Cabal power is ridiculous and dumb to say the least.

 

There is no way the whole dark council could be manipulated into doing something as stupid as disbanding Imperial Intelligence. That equals to letting someone convince you to cut off your right hand in normal circumstances. No one is dumb enough to do it.

 

The worst thing about it is that in the game they haven't even explained how Star Cabal actually pulled it off. I can't blame them because there is no sane or reasonable scenario to explain it. But they shouldn't have made such a stupid story point in the first place.

 

On top of that, there is no way they could manipulate the Jedi Order.

 

In conclusion, until BW comes up with some sane and convincing explanations on how Star Cabal manipulated the Sith and the Jedi Order to that extent (which I highly doubt they exists) the Star Cabal will be under "lame" and "unacceptable" category.

 

No, we disagree with your main thing. and have rebutted your arguments as to why it's ridiculous. The game tells you how they got the kind of influence they have and how many centuries it took to create that kind of organization. You're just unwilling to accept any idea other than your own, regardless of the reasoning presented.

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No, we disagree with your main thing. and have rebutted your arguments as to why it's ridiculous. The game tells you how they got the kind of influence they have and how many centuries it took to create that kind of organization. You're just unwilling to accept any idea other than your own, regardless of the reasoning presented.

 

I guess we just have different opinions on the whole matter.

 

Btw, giving a hint on how many centuries it took to create that kind of organization does NOT explain one bit how they pulled off the particular things that concern events in SWTOR. If anything it is an argument against Star Cabal since it just tells you how incompetent and powerless must they have been not to be able to even slightly fulfil their goal in all that time. If they really possessed the power demonstrated in SWTOR the Jedi Order and the Sith would be long gone.

Edited by Path-x
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On top of that, there is no way they could manipulate the Jedi Order.

 

I guess you missed the part where effectively every single major galactic war in Star Wars lore is preceded by the Jedi getting played.

Edited by Narien
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You are all clinging to some speculative details while missing the main thing. The whole Star Cabal power is ridiculous and dumb to say the least.

 

There is no way the whole dark council could be manipulated into doing something as stupid as disbanding Imperial Intelligence. That equals to letting someone convince you to cut off your right hand in normal circumstances. No one is dumb enough to do it.

 

The worst thing about it is that in the game they haven't even explained how Star Cabal actually pulled it off. I can't blame them because there is no sane or reasonable scenario to explain it. But they shouldn't have made such a stupid story point in the first place.

 

On top of that, there is no way they could manipulate the Jedi Order.

 

In conclusion, until BW comes up with some sane and convincing explanations on how Star Cabal manipulated the Sith and the Jedi Order to that extent (which I highly doubt they exists) the Star Cabal will be under "lame" and "unacceptable" category.

 

Manipulate the information flow and you can pretty much convince anyone of anything. Whisper to the Dark COuncil that Intellegence is not pulling their weight. That the agents are running off chasing things that aren't helping the war effort. That no one is over seeing the agents because all the analysts have gone into comas. Then just show them that their own personal forces are low on trained soldiers. How they are going to react is pretty obvious when presented with that information.

 

I don't recall any specific instances of the Jedi being manipulated, but still just control the flow of information and you control a person's perception of reality and therefore how they react.

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Manipulate the information flow and you can pretty much convince anyone of anything.

 

That's really the whole point of agent, isn't it?

 

You're not tough. You're not an all powerful demi-god.

 

But you control who knows what. And that's more powerful than a lightsaber being wielded by someone with Force leap.

 

Look at Issen 4 as an example. The reason the war gets started is because there's a Republic base, they surrender to the Imperials, then you wander in (pursing Hunter, based on some intelligence W2/Keeper has gathered), and they are all found massacred. (Hunter's doing, again.)

 

Totally makes sense from the Republic's POV to base a war on this. Some innocent colonists surrender and are massacred by an agent of the Empire.

 

The Empire, of course, is furious because, from their POV, a rogue SIS agent pretty much arranged the whole thing to make them look bad.

 

You're both played.

 

(And this may happen in other storylines. For instance, the cold war starts to heat up for all classes in Chapter 2. Why? All kinds of reasons, depending on class. But some of that mysterious information both sides keep getting as to where the key targets are, etc. may be being slipped to them by the Star Cabal.)

 

That's the point of the Star Cabal. They keep pulling strings until everyone is killing everyone.

 

(And the only reason that they haven't already pulled this off, according to the game, is that they haven't really wanted to. Up until some time in the recent past, they've just tried to prevent either the Jedi or Sith from getting too powerful. It was only lately that they decided "let's kill them all". And that took some prep work, which is only approved 6 months prior to the start of Chapter 3.)

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Manipulate the information flow and you can pretty much convince anyone of anything. Whisper to the Dark COuncil that Intellegence is not pulling their weight. That the agents are running off chasing things that aren't helping the war effort.

 

That all sound perfectly reasonable IF you assume the Sith are either extremely stupid or have the naivety of a 6 years old child.

 

The information has a weight and reliability attached to it. To every intelligence there is an enemy counter-intelligence which is trying to confuse with false information and is constantly manipulating the information flow anyway (you don't need Star Cabal for that). If you get a spam email from John Doe telling you that your bank account was hacked and that you need to provide him with your account password you probably won't do it...

 

Information reliability aside, the Imperial Intelligence is a complex organisation. Its role isn't merely supporting war effort with information. The equally important task is to keep the Empire together (like NKVD, Stasi or Gestapo in the corresponding police states). So disbanding it because it didn't provide the expected results to war effort because it put effort in eliminating the internal enemies is ludicrous...

Edited by Path-x
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That all sound perfectly reasonable IF you assume the Sith are either extremely stupid or have the naivety of a 6 years old child.

 

The information has a weight and reliability attached to it. To every intelligence there is an enemy counter-intelligence which is trying to confuse with false information and is constantly manipulating the information flow anyway (you don't need Star Cabal for that). If you get a spam email from John Doe telling you that your bank account was hacked and that you need to provide him with your account password you probably won't do it...

 

Information reliability aside, the Imperial Intelligence is a complex organisation. Its role isn't merely supporting war effort with information. The equally important task is to keep the Empire together (like NKVD, Stasi or Gestapo in the corresponding police states). So disbanding it because it didn't provide the expected results to war effort because it put effort in eliminating the internal enemies is ludicrous...

 

After my last post, it occured to me how ridiculously easy getting the Dark Council to disband the Star Cabal. The Black Codex has the security files to access every single aspect of Imperial Intellegence's files. So if the Star Cabal wanted to get Imperial Intellegence disbanded, they just need to alter the reports sent from Imperial Intellegence to the Dark Council. Make it appear they have been dedicating twice as much time on hunting down the Star Cabal and remove references to most of the evidence found in support of the existence of the Star Cabal. So it appears that Imperial Intellegence is spending all of their resources hunting something which doesn't exist. The reliability isn't an issue because it is coming directly from Intellegence. When the Minister of Intellegence tries to explain that the "Star Cabal" hacked the reports he would either look like he is lying to save his own skin or that Intellegence is incompetent. For good measure the Star Cabal could further alter the reports to make it seem like the amount of resources dedicated to hunting the Star Cabal increased when Keeper and the Watchers went into a coma.

 

And while Intellegence might be a complex organization, if the Star Cabal can alter the records to make it seem that it is ignoring its other tasks for its ghost hunt then that just gives the Dark Council more reason to disband them in order to put those duties under their control so that they are sure that the task gets accomplished.

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It is the Minister that reports to the Council to begin with. And even if the files were altered the chiefs of the operational divisions who are making those reports would notice that very quickly. Anything that is coming from Imperial Intelligence goes through them. And even if there was in fact inefficiency inside the Imperial Intelligence that is no where near a reason to dismantle the whole organization which is vital to the Empire. In that case you simply change the leadership. You don't destroy the priceless infrastructure of spies and informants and make yourself blind.

 

No matter how you spin it this thing will remain ludicrous.

Edited by Path-x
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