KOTOR disagrees with you.

 

Revan was largely responsible for the Republic success in that war for many reasons.

Let me break down Revan's success for you, and those who think the same as you do.

The Republic was crumbling, the Mandalorians were destroying the Republic military and morale was low. Suddenly, an army of Jedi takes command of the Republic fleet. Morale skyrockets and the Republic begins to recruit a vast number of troops. The Republic's numbers grow exponentially, greatly outnumbering the Mandalorians with the aid of the Jedi.

Command of the fleet is given to Revan, Alek, Meetra Surik, Saul Karath, Kavar, and others. Revan decides upon an aggressive course of action, leaving worlds undefended to make a strike against the Mandalorians. The fleets led by Meetra, Kavar, and Alek secure countless victories and pushed the Mandalorians to the borders of Known Space.

Revan did not win the war alone. If not for his allies, the Mandalorians would have pushed them back. What we can say for Revan is that he was able to rally the Jedi to join the war.

Revan could have easily turned Mandalore's false war strategy against him and strung his forces along in the same way the Mandalorians had done. This would not have only saved lives, but would have brought an easy end to the war. Instead, Revan chose an aggressive tactic (the Mandalorian's tactics) that costed more lives than any other strategy would have.

The reason I say Revan is not a tactical genius is because if he were a genius, he could have easily turned the war around through his own tactics. His use of Mandalorian tactics would have failed if he didn't have the Jedi numbers he had.

The reason I say Revan is not a tactical genius is because if he were a genius, he could have easily turned the war around through his own tactics. His use of Mandalorian tactics would have failed if he didn't have the Jedi numbers he had.

I still do not understand how using Mandalorian tactics with larger numbers makes him not a tactical genius.

It was literally an unbeatable strategy.

1- Yeah, still he was one of the most powerfull force user of his time. Since that in his time there was jedi masters and sith masters, he was as powerfull as them. How can you say that someone is a master of something? You'll say that you know about sidious and luke because George Lucas said that they are SW super-heroes. But what about other characters? Has obi-wan mastered light side? He was a jedi master, but that's only a title too...

The thing is, he was powerfull enough to be considered a master in both sides. Just play Kotor and you'll know that.

 

2- Yes, it's a character statement but they have no reason to lie about that, and since they are very good warriors and know a lot about war, it's a big deal. You can't say that he's not a skillful tactician or else he wouldn't be praised like this by a clan of WARRIORS.

 

3- Would have fallen? Could not control himself? What the hell are youtalking about? Have you made the dark side ending? That what would happen if he fallen to the dark side, he'd use the star forge to take the whole galaxy!!

1. How can someone be a master of something? Good question. The answer is not simple. Mastery requires the most serious mind. To show an unparelled control/use of an ability/skill. Being a Jedi Master does not make you a master of the Light Side. Obi-Wan is not a master of the Light Side. Mastering the Force is not something you can do. It requires you to be the picture of peace, tranquility. Mastering the Dark Side is even more difficult. The Dark Side becomes the master in almost every case.

2. They praised his use of tactics. Tactics that they themselves use. He used their own tactics to beat them. That's why they praised him. He used their tactics, not only that, but he bested them with it. No wonder they praised him!

3. What am I talking about? No need to get angry. Revan was absolutely corrupted by the Dark energies of Malachor V. He could not control these energies. They controlled him. Revan can't fathom what it takes to control the Dark Side. The Dark powers that he used would have corrupted him. That is what the Dark Side does. He doesn't have the mental discipline to control Dark powers.

I still do not understand how using Mandalorian tactics with larger numbers makes him not a tactical genius.

 

It was literally an unbeatable strategy.

It's a good strategy. His use of their strategy makes him a good strategist, but not a genius. A genius creates a tactic that completely outwits and outmaneuvers the enemy. Revan basically hit the Mandalorian's proverbial 3-inch thick Durasteel wall with his own 6-inch durasteel wall.

An effective strategy, but not the best strategy. He's a great strategist, but not a tactical genius.

2. They praised his use of tactics. Tactics that they themselves use. He used their own tactics to beat them. That's why they praised him. He used their tactics, not only that, but he bested them with it. No wonder they praised him!

The Echani respected him as well, so it's not because the Mandalorians were biased.

An effective strategy, but not the best strategy. He's a great strategist, but not a tactical genius.

"Strategy" and "Tactics" are synonyms.

"Great" and "Genius" both mean above average.

I have to point out that Revan was both a great strategist and a tactical genius, seeing as they mean the same thing.

Let me break down Revan's success for you, and those who think the same as you do.

 

The Republic was crumbling, the Mandalorians were destroying the Republic military and morale was low. Suddenly, an army of Jedi takes command of the Republic fleet. Morale skyrockets and the Republic begins to recruit a vast number of troops. The Republic's numbers grow exponentially, greatly outnumbering the Mandalorians with the aid of the Jedi.

 

Command of the fleet is given to Revan, Alek, Meetra Surik, Saul Karath, Kavar, and others. Revan decides upon an aggressive course of action, leaving worlds undefended to make a strike against the Mandalorians. The fleets led by Meetra, Kavar, and Alek secure countless victories and pushed the Mandalorians to the borders of Known Space.

 

Revan did not win the war alone. If not for his allies, the Mandalorians would have pushed them back. What we can say for Revan is that he was able to rally the Jedi to join the war.

 

Revan could have easily turned Mandalore's false war strategy against him and strung his forces along in the same way the Mandalorians had done. This would not have only saved lives, but would have brought an easy end to the war. Instead, Revan chose an aggressive tactic (the Mandalorian's tactics) that costed more lives than any other strategy would have.

 

The reason I say Revan is not a tactical genius is because if he were a genius, he could have easily turned the war around through his own tactics. His use of Mandalorian tactics would have failed if he didn't have the Jedi numbers he had.

Revan defied the council, brought the Jedi to the republic, put tactics into play the no other republic general thought to use, and defeated Mandalore in one on one combat. Revan did a lot for the war. Without his actions republic probably would have lost.

A tactician fights battles, a strategist fights wars.. Revan was both, but that doesn't excuse sloppy thinking; they are different.

Likewise, a 'great' will have the goal of winning.. and a few others in mind.

Generally, conserving troops and equipment is high on the list.

Usually preventing civilian casualties (but that is cultural -- Republic will consider it a requirement, Sith .. the opposite requirement)

Winning the respect of your opponents, possibly

Preventing further incursions/wars, usually.

But, the greats will have multiple purposes besides 'winning'.

A 'genius' would be a great.. who is also creative. They won't simply use tried and true methods, they will come up with new ones, that work.

So... is Revan a great? Doubtful. He won the respect of the Mandalorians, but he didn't appear to be looking for it. He didn't preserve troops, equipment OR civilians. And the Mandalorians are fighting against the Republic. All he did was win battles... so, a good tactician and good strategist, but not a great.

He wasn't creative, or great, so definitely not a genius.

A 'genius' would be a great.. who is also creative. They won't simply use tried and true methods, they will come up with new ones, that work.

Does anyone have a source of him being actually uncreative and using the Mandalorian's tactics? I think what everyone is refering to is the fact that lots of people died, like the Mandalorians were dying.... not that he used the same exact battle formation as the enemy.

The Mass Shadow Generator certainly seemed original and creative to me....

ITT: People who take Star Wars canon seriously.

HAHAHAHA Wow you're all so pathetic.

Does anyone have a source of him being actually uncreative and using the Mandalorian's tactics? I think what everyone is refering to is the fact that lots of people died, like the Mandalorians were dying.... not that he used the same exact battle formation as the enemy.

Multiple characters in both games state exactly that.

The Mass Shadow Generator certainly seemed original and creative to me....

A superweapon? have you heard of the Great Sith War or....

Ok, here we go again, argue with the most all-knowing of star wars ever...

Oh, and **** G-canon, **** what George Lucas says, he doesn't even cares for what he says and the repercussion that it would have.

^^this.

Besides if Revan wasn't all that powerful he wouldn't have been able to one shoot a dark council member (Darth Nyriss) or stand up to The Sith Emporer (Darth Vitiate.)

^^this.

 

Besides if Revan wasn't all that powerful he wouldn't have been able to one shoot a dark council member (Darth Nyriss) or stand up to The Sith Emporer (Darth Vitiate.)

^^ yup

Multiple characters in both games state exactly that.

 

 

 

A superweapon? have you heard of the Great Sith War or....

To quote another poster in this thread, character statements are non-canon.

If character statements aren't allowed to work for Revan they shouldn't be allowed to work against him.

*Shrug* It still was nowhere near any stragegy that the mandalorians used. That weapon literally won the war, and I don't think the Mandalorians could lay claim to "We thought of that first! QQ".

^^this.

 

Besides if Revan wasn't all that powerful he wouldn't have been able to one shoot a dark council member (Darth Nyriss) or stand up to The Sith Emporer (Darth Vitiate.)

He used Tutaminis to deflect her own built up dark power back at Nyriss and it instantly killed her and with the Emperor, the only time he hand the upper had is when he achieved a state of oneness with the force and blasted it at him, once that was done, the Emperor blasted him with Lightning nearly to death, T3 was destroyed saving him and then the Exile saved him as well, he did not hold his own at all. Without the force, T3 and the Exile backing him, he'd have died.

I love both sides of the arguments here.

I'll just say "Nothing is true everything is permitted" and begone!

To quote another poster in this thread, character statements are non-canon.

If character statements aren't allowed to work for Revan they shouldn't be allowed to work against him.

They stated as fact that he used Mandalore's tactics back at him and it threw him off balance, opinion and fact are entirely different, these statements are backed up by the KotOR comic books and the Campaign Guide, which both state he used Mandalorian tactics with superior forces to win the war.

*Shrug* It still was nowhere near any strategy that the Mandalorians used. That weapon literally won the war, and I don't think the Mandalorians could lay claim to "We thought of that first! QQ".

Fair enough, but you called the use of superweapons original, it's nothing of the sort, look up the Dark Reaper.

They stated as fact that he used Mandalore's tactics back at him and it threw him off balance, opinion and fact are entirely different, these statements are backed up by the KotOR comic books and the Campaign Guide, which both state he used Mandalorian tactics with superior forces to win the war.

 

Fair enough, but you called the use of superweapons original, it's nothing of the sort, look up the Dark Reaper.

So, if he did use their tactics, how did that win the war? What battles did it win? Did he only use them to throw the Mandalorians off, or was it his only strategy?

Also, Revan rose to stardom before he outnumbered the Mandalorians. He gained control of 1/3 of the Republic Fleet AFTER several displays of his brilliance. There is no way his forces could use Mandalorian tactics only with larger numbers when he had less than 1/3 of the Republic's forces.

The Mass Shadow Generator won the war, it literally crushed all of the Mandalorian fleet.

Well of course super-weapons aren't original, I'm just saying they're not a Mandalorian tactic. Actually, I still think it's an original idea to lure the enemy's fleet (as well as your own) to a planet and then destroy it. I don't think that's been done before.

Wow, when I first posted on this thread there were no posts. I was like, hey guess there won't be a flame war. How wrong I was.

But anyway, I'm a little puzzled about a few things, and I have a few arguments to make, so here goes:

1. Using both sides of the Force: apparently this is impossible, but what exactly are 'light side powers'. In my book, the light side of the Force, is just the Force and the dark side of the Force is a corrupted version of it (sort of, more like the extreme pinnacle of the Force which can only be achieved through corruption) So surely a master of the dark side, say Sidious, can use certain lightside powers? Again this comes down to what you define as a light side power. Wookiepedia for example lists 'force stun' as a lightside power - and yet I'm sure Sidious could use force stun with one hand and force lightining with the other simultaneously. It also lists Force blinding as light side, but surely a dark sider could use that too? Then there's malacia and moricho that Aurbere talked about. Of course with some powers it seems to make sense e.g. Force Valor, Wall of Light, Force healing and Force Light etcera. But what about the others, surely Revan could use those and dark side powers simultaneously. (And also, what exactly do you mean? are we talking about using them at the same time, or using one then switching to the other?) Clarification please!

2. The battle with Revan at the foundry. At first he fights like any Jedi, and then as the battle progresses he falls back on the dark side, doesn't this prove you wrong? Or would you say he was using the dark side all along? Oh, and may I add Aurbere & Co. that I'm afraid BioWare are against you on this one. Remember the duel with Revan at the Foundry? How he chucks meteors at you (could Yoda do that?) And remember how it kept saying stuff like 'Revan has become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!' and remember, this ones important 'Revan has become more powerful than any Jedi has ever dreamed of' Yes, yes I know, it doesn't really count. But still, these are the writers talking here, the guys that made Revan, and they seem to think he was super, super tough. May I also add that at this point he glows yellowy/white indicating oneness with the light side of the Force, only later to start using force lightning. Basically what I'm saying is that while you guys may think your in the right and educating all these Revan fanboi's, you have to consider it may be the reverse and that Revan is super tough and you just don't want to accept it. After all, what evidence is there to suggest he is not? (Yes that is a challenge

(Oh and please explain your explanation for Revan's become one with the force yada yada in the Revan novel - not sure I fully understand)

3. Revan and his battle tactics. From what I gather from these posts, Revan was pretty smart to use the Mandalorian's tactics against them and Malachor V was a stroke of (sort of twisted) genius. And no one yet has discussed the Jedi Civil War, he was winning. But hey, he had Malak, Karath etcera to back him up. So I'd say he wasn't a tactical genius, but a highly skilled tactician compared to other Jedi. What do you think? (I think its time to find some common ground)

P.S. I am not a Revan Fanboi, come on I'm too caught up in by Kreia Fanboism to deal with that. I'm just trying to establish some ground here.

Wow, when I first posted on this thread there were no posts. I was like, hey guess there won't be a flame war. How wrong I was.

You foolish fool! This is a thread about Revan, of course there was going to be flaming.

I think the entire point of the KotOR story line was to truly examine in-depth the ineptitude of the Jedi way of life. How choosing to wait instead of act in the face of adversity doesn't make for the right choice. How choices in war should fall into the grey area.

What made Revan such an influential character was his choice to go against his teaching for the greater good. Any soldier has to make the hard choice between what is moral and what is right. Revan choose what was right.

Now saying that, I believe, as I played the games, that what was said about him as a General and as a tactician was true. You call it character reference, but the people who made these statements were there. They saw what he was capable of and they were awed by it. Therefore, he was incredible in this respect.

As for his power with the force. I agree, no one has ever mastered the force. Saying that, Revan was an incredibly powerful Sith and Jedi, which means he got closer than most.

As for G-Canon. I disregard it usually, and not because I don't like what it did with Revan. I disregard it because I have read much of the EU and played many of the games. I determine my own canon. George Lucas lost all rights to tell me what was canon when he took credit for other people's writing (in regards to Episodes V and VI) and then released the abominations that were Episodes I-III and completely destroyed 2 of my favorite character back stories while doing so (Vader and Boba Fett).

Also, even after being as big a Star Wars fan as I am, I will never believe that Palpatine is the most powerful Sith ever. He didn't do **** worth mentioning that makes me think he was a powerful force user. I don't consider essence transference to be that impressive. The Emperor during the TOR time period can devour the live and the force energy of an entire planet. The only other Sith to come close to that power was Nihilus, and Vitiate is more powerful because he did not lose himself in the hunger like Nihilus did.

I will agree that Luke is, no contest, the most powerful force user ever to live. That is wholly obvious through EU.

Also, even after being as big a Star Wars fan as I am, I will never believe that Palpatine is the most powerful Sith ever. He didn't do **** worth mentioning that makes me think he was a powerful force user. I don't consider essence transference to be that impressive. The Emperor during the TOR time period can devour the live and the force energy of an entire planet. The only other Sith to come close to that power was Nihilus, and Vitiate is more powerful because he did not lose himself in the hunger like Nihilus did.

All right, let nots start another debate here

So many self-proclaimed authorities.

Delicious.

Wow, when I first posted on this thread there were no posts. I was like, hey guess there won't be a flame war. How wrong I was.

 

But anyway, I'm a little puzzled about a few things, and I have a few arguments to make, so here goes:

 

1. Using both sides of the Force: apparently this is impossible, but what exactly are 'light side powers'. In my book, the light side of the Force, is just the Force and the dark side of the Force is a corrupted version of it (sort of, more like the extreme pinnacle of the Force which can only be achieved through corruption) So surely a master of the dark side, say Sidious, can use certain lightside powers? Again this comes down to what you define as a light side power. Wookiepedia for example lists 'force stun' as a lightside power - and yet I'm sure Sidious could use force stun with one hand and force lightining with the other simultaneously. It also lists Force blinding as light side, but surely a dark sider could use that too? Then there's malacia and moricho that Aurbere talked about. Of course with some powers it seems to make sense e.g. Force Valor, Wall of Light, Force healing and Force Light etcera. But what about the others, surely Revan could use those and dark side powers simultaneously. (And also, what exactly do you mean? are we talking about using them at the same time, or using one then switching to the other?) Clarification please!

 

2. The battle with Revan at the foundry. At first he fights like any Jedi, and then as the battle progresses he falls back on the dark side, doesn't this prove you wrong? Or would you say he was using the dark side all along? Oh, and may I add Aurbere & Co. that I'm afraid BioWare are against you on this one. Remember the duel with Revan at the Foundry? How he chucks meteors at you (could Yoda do that?) And remember how it kept saying stuff like 'Revan has become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!' and remember, this ones important 'Revan has become more powerful than any Jedi has ever dreamed of' Yes, yes I know, it doesn't really count. But still, these are the writers talking here, the guys that made Revan, and they seem to think he was super, super tough. May I also add that at this point he glows yellowy/white indicating oneness with the light side of the Force, only later to start using force lightning. Basically what I'm saying is that while you guys may think your in the right and educating all these Revan fanboi's, you have to consider it may be the reverse and that Revan is super tough and you just don't want to accept it. After all, what evidence is there to suggest he is not? (Yes that is a challenge

 

(Oh and please explain your explanation for Revan's become one with the force yada yada in the Revan novel - not sure I fully understand)

 

3. Revan and his battle tactics. From what I gather from these posts, Revan was pretty smart to use the Mandalorian's tactics against them and Malachor V was a stroke of (sort of twisted) genius. And no one yet has discussed the Jedi Civil War, he was winning. But hey, he had Malak, Karath etcera to back him up. So I'd say he wasn't a tactical genius, but a highly skilled tactician compared to other Jedi. What do you think? (I think its time to find some common ground)

 

P.S. I am not a Revan Fanboi, come on I'm too caught up in by Kreia Fanboism to deal with that. I'm just trying to establish some ground here.

Yeah things are turning into a flame war here. You do bring up some logical points that I would like to address.

1. In the case of using both sides of the Force. It is impossible. We aren't talking about using Light Side and Dark Side powers at once. We are speaking about the instance in the Revan novel where it talks about Revan letting both sides flow through him (yada yada). It's been set forth already that you cannot have both sides flowing through you at the same time. What we see Revan do against the Emperor can only be defined as Oneness. A moment in which the Force takes control of a being. After Revan's moment of Oneness ended, he got the smackdown by the Emperor. This is what we are talking about with both sides being used.

2. In the case of Revan having access to powers from either side. Of course he does. But people make the mistake of thinking that being able to use powers from the Light Side as well as the Dark Side makes him super-powerful. It really doesn't.

3. Now each side has certain specific powers that require a certain degree of "alignment" (for lack of a better word) to each side. There are a whole host of "universal" powers that each side can use. Force Stun would be one of them. The number of "Side-specific" powers is actually very few. Compared to the number of powers out there, of course. You mentioned Malacia and Morichro and I would like to clear some things up in this case. Malacia was created by Oppo Rancisis, so Revan would not know of it. Morichro was a restricted and forbidden ability to the Jedi, unless they had the mental prowess to control it. The Jedi Council would most likely not allow Revan to learn such an ability for two reasons. 1: They would fear that he couldn't control it, which is likely. 2. He would make a dangerous enemy if he fell again.

4. Discussing the Foundry. Revan started off fighting like a Jedi, but much like in the Revan novel, he fell to the Dark Side when he started losing. It doesn't really prove me wrong as we have seen other Jedi fall to the Dark Side, or come close, during times of high stress. Nomen Karr fell, Jai Maruk almost fell, Qui-Gon Jinn almost fell. Now for the meteors. If you look in the background, you can see giant rocks falling down around you. Revan merely directed them towards the strike team. He didn't really chuck meteors. And yes, Yoda could move meteors if he wanted to. Now I don't think he went Oneness during the fight. I think he uses this one ability that gives him that glowing thing. Been a while since I did Foundry and I only saw him do it once.

5. There's no doubt that Revan's a better tactician than the other Jedi that came with him. That's one of the reasons the Republic gave him command of a sizable fleet. And it was very smart of him to draw them into Malachor V for the MSG to take them out. I'm not saying that he's not smart. I'm saying that to call him a genius is a bit out there.

When we look at Revan, we see a powerful guy. No doubt about it. What I am trying to do is bring him back into reality (for Star Wars ) and show people that he really isn't this super-epic OMG powerful guy. In the big picture of Star Wars, he's actually quite average. For his time, he is one of the best.

Yeah things are turning into a flame war here. You do bring up some logical points that I would like to address.

 

1. In the case of using both sides of the Force. It is impossible. We aren't talking about using Light Side and Dark Side powers at once. We are speaking about the instance in the Revan novel where it talks about Revan letting both sides flow through him (yada yada). It's been set forth already that you cannot have both sides flowing through you at the same time. What we see Revan do against the Emperor can only be defined as Oneness. A moment in which the Force takes control of a being. After Revan's moment of Oneness ended, he got the smackdown by the Emperor. This is what we are talking about with both sides being used.

 

2. In the case of Revan having access to powers from either side. Of course he does. But people make the mistake of thinking that being able to use powers from the Light Side as well as the Dark Side makes him super-powerful. It really doesn't.

 

3. Now each side has certain specific powers that require a certain degree of "alignment" (for lack of a better word) to each side. There are a whole host of "universal" powers that each side can use. Force Stun would be one of them. The number of "Side-specific" powers is actually very few. Compared to the number of powers out there, of course. You mentioned Malacia and Morichro and I would like to clear some things up in this case. Malacia was created by Oppo Rancisis, so Revan would not know of it. Morichro was a restricted and forbidden ability to the Jedi, unless they had the mental prowess to control it. The Jedi Council would most likely not allow Revan to learn such an ability for two reasons. 1: They would fear that he couldn't control it, which is likely. 2. He would make a dangerous enemy if he fell again.

 

4. Discussing the Foundry. Revan started off fighting like a Jedi, but much like in the Revan novel, he fell to the Dark Side when he started losing. It doesn't really prove me wrong as we have seen other Jedi fall to the Dark Side, or come close, during times of high stress. Nomen Karr fell, Jai Maruk almost fell, Qui-Gon Jinn almost fell. Now for the meteors. If you look in the background, you can see giant rocks falling down around you. Revan merely directed them towards the strike team. He didn't really chuck meteors. And yes, Yoda could move meteors if he wanted to. Now I don't think he went Oneness during the fight. I think he uses this one ability that gives him that glowing thing. Been a while since I did Foundry and I only saw him do it once.

 

5. There's no doubt that Revan's a better tactician than the other Jedi that came with him. That's one of the reasons the Republic gave him command of a sizable fleet. And it was very smart of him to draw them into Malachor V for the MSG to take them out. I'm not saying that he's not smart. I'm saying that to call him a genius is a bit out there.

 

When we look at Revan, we see a powerful guy. No doubt about it. What I am trying to do is bring him back into reality (for Star Wars ) and show people that he really isn't this super-epic OMG powerful guy. In the big picture of Star Wars, he's actually quite average. For his time, he is one of the best.

Your twisting the idea of using and having knowledge of. Revan became very powerful in the dark side at one point of his life. Despite being a Jedi he would still have the knowledge of those abilities. He may not be able to use them to the fullest but he still knows of his powers. And in Star Wars knowledge is power.

You can say what you want about his tactics but many characters in the game praise him and you can say "character statement" but some of those character experienced his tactics first hand. I trust what they say.

I would not call him god but I would not call him "Average". He was at the level of Jedi Master and could hold his own against a Sith Emperor. Something that only and hand full of Jedi can claim. I would not put him on the same level as Luke or Sidious but I would call him above average compared to most Jedi.